Acl Repair No 2 Has Broken Down...

[westiemum]

My old boy westie had a left ear ablation last November which has gone really well. He had a left ACL repair back in 2006 and that has gone really well too - no further problems at all.

Welll just when I thought we were through it all he blew his right ACL back in March... it was repaired on 1 April (DE technique?) - seemed to do well and then two weeks ago he was limping quite badly again - real three legged hopping... . So back to the vet we went and she thought he looked quite functional and was moving quite well - and then she examined him clinically and the joint was so loose she was sure he had blown the repair... she spoke with the surgeon and they decided since he was moving surprisingly well to wait and see if the joint capsule tightened up - that was last week - and he seemed to get better again - until he started not weight bearing on it again and three-legged hopping on it again tonight...

We aren't due to go back to the vet again until the end of next week. But I think I'll need to take him back early and insist on another surgical repair. Don't have much faith this is going to end well without more surgery.

Please could I have others opinions? Am I jumping the gun, or just being realistic? What are peoples experiences in these circumstances?

One of the problems is he is an ex-puppy farm dog and a very stoic old man - so he can be in quite a lot of pain and not show it... and I'm worried about that good but vulnerable repaired left leg...

Advice anyone??

Thanks.

Edited May 8, 2010 by westiemum

[OSoSwift]

Poor little man - He is such a trooper though!

Do you think he may have arthiritis in that joint now? That may help explain the pain a little.

I know of some dogs who have not had surgical repair and given time and controlled exercise they have a joint which has scarred up sufficiently and they have a pain free functional leg.

Have you the ability to do non-weight bearing exercise like swimming in a heated pool?

Swimming is one of the best forms of exercise for joint issues as it helps the msucle build up around it without the joint moving and causing pain.

I would possibly give it a little more time and do physio on the leg to see if I could build up the muscle.

Fingers crossed all goes well for your boy - he has had more than his fair sahre of medical issues already!

ETA - being lame will put more strain on his other leg, but once they are surgically repaired the are usually quite strong. I would definately recommend the swimming for him.

Edited May 7, 2010 by Rommi n Lewis

[Golden Rules]

We aren't due to go back to the vet again until the end of next week. But I think I'll need to take him back early and insist on another surgical repair. Don't have much faith this is going to end well without more surgery.

Please could I have others opinions? Am I jumping the gun, or just being realistic? What are peoples experiences in these circumstances?

......I'm worried about that good but vulnerable repaired left leg...

Advice anyone??

Thanks.

I have been through exactly the same thing (or rather my dog has!) but I was just like you A.

Two cruciate ops, one repair 'half' went almost 12 months later. Vet thought it might just have been scar tissue in the knee joint.

I wasn't due to go back to the vet for another 2 weeks but within a week of last seeing the vet, I just called and booked my dog in for the surgery as I knew there was no point in waiting.

And you are right, it's only making the 'good' leg more susceptible to damage, the longer you leave it.

Good luck, hope everything turns out well!

[westiemum]

Thanks R and L, - yep he is one amazing boy to still be so good natured after all he's been through.

The swimming is certainly a good idea... a vet around the corner has a heated hydrotherapy pool - might investigate that tomorrow afternoon.

Thanks for replying and hope all goes well with your baby too.

[westiemum]

Thanks very much for your reply GR - yes a vet review is certainly warranted and I need to review his pain relief anyway - and I suspect it will be more surgery sooner rather than later - but exercise and massage in the meantime can't hurt.

He's having a massage in the morning so will see how he is after that and take it from there. R and L is right - there is significant arthritis in both back legs and he has poor muscle development in both legs (a legacy of his puppy farm days) - so the massage will be good for him - and he absolutely loved the last one!

We aren't due to go back to the vet again until the end of next week. But I think I'll need to take him back early and insist on another surgical repair. Don't have much faith this is going to end well without more surgery.

Please could I have others opinions? Am I jumping the gun, or just being realistic? What are peoples experiences in these circumstances?

......I'm worried about that good but vulnerable repaired left leg...

Advice anyone??

Thanks.

I have been through exactly the same thing (or rather my dog has!) but I was just like you A.

Two cruciate ops, one repair 'half' went almost 12 months later. Vet thought it might just have been scar tissue in the knee joint.

I wasn't due to go back to the vet for another 2 weeks but within a week of last seeing the vet, I just called and booked my dog in for the surgery as I knew there was no point in waiting.

And you are right, it's only making the 'good' leg more susceptible to damage, the longer you leave it.

Good luck, hope everything turns out well!

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

I can only talk about human acl repair...

There is a limit to the number of repairs that can be done because there is a limit to the amount of tissue available for use in reconstructing, which basically involves grabbing a piece of tendon from somewhere else (and weakening that spot) and attaching it to the bit that is broken. So for humans, there are two patella tendons and two hamstrings that can be used, and maybe two bits of IT band (part of the quadrucep muscle system).

And yes, one buggered leg can lead to compensating with the other leg and stuffing that up too.

And the regrowth or re-attachment of the new tissue feels strongest straight after the operation and is weakest, some time afterwards - about the 6th week post op, the graft is at it's weakest and easy to bust again. Tendon aslo takes years to build strength compared to how muscle builds.

And some athletes have managed without an ACL repair. It does help if they build up the surrounding muscles to compensate, and have no tears in the side (lateral?) tendons. But I imagine it would be very difficult to get a dog to spend the required time in the gym. The pool is a great idea though. I found not swimming but walking in the water, with water resistence was the best help.

If the whole joint is buggered ie not just the ACL was damaged - then trying to rebuild muscle and live without a repair is extremely difficult - best just to get the op. I think this would definitely apply to dogs - because you can't make them do the gym work, or use their legs evenly inspite of the injury.

The weird thing is, in the 80s, I'd never heard of dogs doing their ACL, let alone vets trying to repair them. It must have still happened. I do wonder what the treatment was then.

this info is good.

http://www.sportsinjurybulletin.com/archiv...on-surgery.html

[westiemum]

Thanks very much Mrs RB - thats good advice - yes I think this right leg with its arthritis and age is going to be much more problematic (he was 6 when he had his first repair, 10 and 1/2 when he had the second on the right last month).

The vet at Glenside has an underwater treadmill - so I'll ring in the morning and take it from there. I'll also get a review with my own vet after his massage in the morning! Gee its going to be a busy day!

Thanks very much for your reply - much appreciated.

I can only talk about human acl repair...

There is a limit to the number of repairs that can be done because there is a limit to the amount of tissue available for use in reconstructing, which basically involves grabbing a piece of tendon from somewhere else (and weakening that spot) and attaching it to the bit that is broken. So for humans, there are two patella tendons and two hamstrings that can be used, and maybe two bits of IT band (part of the quadrucep muscle system).

And yes, one buggered leg can lead to compensating with the other leg and stuffing that up too.

And the regrowth or re-attachment of the new tissue feels strongest straight after the operation and is weakest, some time afterwards - about the 6th week post op, the graft is at it's weakest and easy to bust again. Tendon aslo takes years to build strength compared to how muscle builds.

And some athletes have managed without an ACL repair. It does help if they build up the surrounding muscles to compensate, and have no tears in the side (lateral?) tendons. But I imagine it would be very difficult to get a dog to spend the required time in the gym. The pool is a great idea though. I found not swimming but walking in the water, with water resistence was the best help.

If the whole joint is buggered ie not just the ACL was damaged - then trying to rebuild muscle and live without a repair is extremely difficult - best just to get the op. I think this would definitely apply to dogs - because you can't make them do the gym work, or use their legs evenly inspite of the injury.

The weird thing is, in the 80s, I'd never heard of dogs doing their ACL, let alone vets trying to repair them. It must have still happened. I do wonder what the treatment was then.

this info is good.

http://www.sportsinjurybulletin.com/archiv...on-surgery.html

[redangel]

I thought acl surgery in dogs involved using specific suture which acts a a prothesis ligament. ?????

[westiemum]

Yep that may well be the case in certain procedures redangel, but I understand different procedures are used for different sized dogs (hence the different costs) - and a DE (?)technique I gather is pretty common for small dogs - it involves inserting a piece of inert plastic stuff or something to keep the joint together - and occasionally it snaps and she (the vet) thinks this is what has happened here.

I thought acl surgery in dogs involved using specific suture which acts a a prothesis ligament. ?????

[karly101]

I don't think you can compare human ACLs and dogs.. as I understand the joint is quite different..

I'd perhaps seek the advice of a specialist surgeon...but at the minimum an x ray to see whats going on in there before you jump the gun..

[Trishm]

Sorry to intrude on your post, but where are you getting your boy massaged, I'm sure my whippy, who is nearing 15, would love one.

I did have one done once before, but I wasn't really happy..............

Thanks,

Trish

[westiemum]

Hi Trish,

No problem - my boy just loves his massage! He goes all gooey!

The woman I use is a trained doggy massage person - her website is here

Hope it helps

Sorry to intrude on your post, but where are you getting your boy massaged, I'm sure my whippy, who is nearing 15, would love one.

I did have one done once before, but I wasn't really happy..............

Thanks,

Trish

[Trishm]

Thanks for that information, I will give her a ring and organise a massage for my girl.

I do hope all goes well for your brave boy.

Trish

[westiemum]

Hi All,

Thanks for all your replies and thoughts - much appreciated.

The news is its surgery on the 18th. He had a review at the vet today and she really didn't like the right leg at all, and she felt it was deteriorating - its clicking and she's worried he's done some meniscus damage.

So I'm continuing to train him to be 'happy' (or at least tolerate) being confined in the puppy pen casowner so kindly lent me, - and he's doing OK - gradually tolerating it for longer periods.

And I've lined up the 'grandmother' for dog sitting duties from the evening of the 19th.

So wish us luck!

Edited May 8, 2010 by westiemum

[Kimjm1]

Have a look at this video http://vimeo.com/9693216 Now avaliable in Australia I can give you contact details if you like.

Edited May 8, 2010 by Kimjm1

[OSoSwift]

Good to hear you have an answer, even if it does mean more surgery.

We are sending him lots of Whippet cuddles, hugs and kisses.

[Kimjm1]

sorry link didn't appear to be working in my previous post have edited it

[Golden Rules]

Best of luck with it Westiemum.

If it's any consolation, after the second op on the same leg, my boy has come along in leaps and bounds, literally! He rarely limps these days and his endurance is 100% improved on what it was.

I also gave daily Metacam for about 8 months afterwards (the vet thinks he will need it for the rest of his life due to the arthritis) however I have reduced the dosing to every second or third day.

I think what it did in the first 8 months was allow the dog to walk and exercise normally, without pain, and using both legs correctly, not favouring one over the other. This helped build up muscle tone which supports the knee as well. I also had a few sessions of acupuncture after the surgery.

It's all been worth it

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

Hi Westies Mum

I know that vet. Tell him or the staff hi from the Kalgoolie Tart - my dog Frosty - not me.