Adopted Dog Biting

[lupinbunny]

Hi everyone. Long time lurker, first time poster. My partner and I recently (in the past week) adopted 17.5kg of four year old male pug x (!) as a friend for our 10 month old crossbreed. We were warned before we got him that Buddy was surrendered to the shelter because he had bitten the child of his previous owner on the lip badly enough to need stitches. Apparently the family were extremely distraught, and emphasised that it had happened during play, when there were lots of kids running round with the dog at a get together. He had also mouthed the kids in the face a few other times. Fair enough, we thought. Lack of supervision and guidance about appropriate behaviour, combined with excitement.

He's a very people-oriented (and food motivated) boy, very sweet and sooky as a general rule. Knows sit and to walk on a leash, not much else. Working on making him wait for his dinner until we tell him he can eat, and stopping him jumping up. Making excellent progress. Focusses on my partner much more than me. In the first 24 hours he was a little prone to lunging at people's faces when he met them, but not making contact. Growling at him/ withdrawing attention seems to have dealt with this. Once or twice while in a playful mood he has mouthed at my fingers while wiggling round on his back for a belly-scratch. Definitely showed bite inhibition. Also does his best to move his mouth away from my fingers if I peel back his lips to look at his teeth (to check cleanliness, bite, all that stuff). If I put my face close to his he'll lick and lick and lick. No teeth.

Problem is this: twice already, in identical circumstances, he has nipped/ bitten me in the face with no apparent provocation. Hasn't touched my partner. Both times my partner and I have been sitting on the couch, with Buddy sitting between us. I might have been scratching his ears or something, but not really paying him any attention. With no warning (no bark, growl, whimper or shift in posture) he has lunged at my face and connected with teeth. First time I got a scratch under my chin, second time teeth connecting with nose hurt, but didn't leave a mark.

The first time we both growled at him and my partner made him get off the couch. Second time I growled at him at held on to his muzzle for a few seconds (to create an uncomfortable sensation and demonstrate dominance, hopefully?)

Problem is that we just can't identify what's causing the behaviour, and there are no triggers or warning that we can see, so we don't really know what to do by way of training. I'm of the opinion that it's behaviour that seriously needs to be stopped, as it comes without warning and could have some nasty consequences. Help?

Edited May 6, 2010 by lupinbunny

[spottychick]

As the owner of an adopted dog Tango who snaps without warning I sympathise with you.

But I am concerned about your use of words like "growl" and your comment that you held his muzzle to establish "dominance".

Apart from one very serious issue between him and my female dog I have not used any form of "dominant" punishment to try to stop Tango snapping. My aim was to make him feel very secure and remove stress from his interactions with me and the other dog.

I am no expert but I believe it's a mistake to think in terms of dominance and submission when talking about human interaction with the dog. He needs to trust you above all else and if it's your hand that makes him feel scared or uncomfortable he won't trust you.

Making him get off the couch is a good idea if he does it when he's on the couch with you. BUt for now I wouldn't let him on the couch at all. He needs to learn who's in charge (which I see as much different to "who is the dominant one"). You are not part of a dog pack, you are the warm, benign leader who is the giver of all food and other good things.

Getting up on the couch should be earned and only happen when he's adjusted and behaving himself, if at all.

It sounds to me like the bites are play biting - not aggressive - and he doesn't know the damage he can do. But I'm not there to see it so I can't say for sure. It's possible when you growl at him he doesnt really understand why.

He probably needs a lot more time to learn the ground rules and NOT lunging in faces or biting them is one of the rules he must learn straight away. BUT he has obviously been allowed to do it up until now so it's going to take a lot of patience to train him out of it. Personally I'd go with gently gently but firm. I also wouldn't let him mouth your hand in play for now. If you can, when he puts his teeth on your hand, go very still and stop playing with him. I would also use a lot of happy praise and very little growly telling off.

I used the TOT program (and am still doing it) with Tango to teach him very gently that I'm in charge and to help him develop control and confidence. It has had a remarkable effect.

If he snapped at me or my other dog he was either put outside for a while or I withdrew my attention from him. Sometimes he got a firm but very low key and calm "No!" but most of the time I just immediately walked away from him and refused to interact with him for a while. He's not completely trustworthy yet but my goodness he is certainly improving in leaps and bounds.

Sorry this is all random thoughts and I am by no means an expert - hopefully others can help you with more coherent advice

[persephone]

Hi, and welcome .

I second the 'no couch' idea! IMO that privilege is to be well earned - not taken as a given.This dog is only new- and needs to find out his place is NOT sitting up with the pack leaders- just yet , anyway :D

The TRIANGLE of TEMPTATION may be a good idea- just to make him see that you are 'god'.. that he needs to pay quiet attention .. and YOu are in control.

Also does his best to move his mouth away from my fingers if I peel back his lips to look at his teeth

that just means that he dislikes what you are doing .

Perhaps have him on leash more ? so you can see/feel if he has a launch happening- and can correct him. I would not be gratifying him with any face closeness either just yet. ..if you do this, it seems to me you are giving him permission to touch your face .

I would also suggest you engage the services of a professional - there are folks here who can recommend someone from your part of the world

[Erny]

I'd need to see this dog but, on the face of what you have written, I'd be inclined to correct this dog for its behaviour. No ifs, buts or maybe's. This is a behaviour that needs to be stopped now. If all other things are in balance (ie leadership/respect/fairness) and if the dog has no other behaviour issues (such as fear, for example) then the correction should do no harm. What correction you use depends on the dog, and I'd need to see him to determine that. Point is, the correction needs to be something that is effective but not excessive.

There is nothing wrong with "dominance". Dominance to me is about being calm. About being assertive. But to balance "dominance" you need leadership, and that's about "guidance" and "fairness".

As to what the trigger is for the behaviour?

Could be the dog is attracted to breath (still no excuse).

Could be a learnt behaviour from the way he was raised and played with.

So many "could be's".

I agree that getting in a behaviourist to observe and see the dog would be the best because then you could be advised on a methodology that is going to suit the dog.

ETA: I also agree to the "no couch" approach. Firstly, for safety sake (dog not near your face). Secondly because whilst some people poohoo the idea that having dogs on couches and beds making an iota of difference to their perception of position in the pack, I can personally vouch for that it does. My leadership to my dog is strong and consistent. Yet if I allow him on the couch on anything that resembles a regular basis, I notice very clearly the "insubordination" that follows. So whilst it might not make a difference to every dog, it CAN make a difference and when there is an aberrant behaviour that exists, then this luxury is not one that I would grant to a dog.

ETA: Oh ..... and "Hi" and :D and :D for adopting a dog in need of a home.

Edited May 6, 2010 by Erny

[spottychick]

Yes I should add that there was just one occassion where Tango actually got growled at by me and smacked on the rear before being sent out LOL BUT it was a serious situation and I had tried being nice for some time. My impression is that he was pushing the boundary on that occassion way beyond where he'd gone before so I reacted and decided he needed a firmer response. My feeling is that if I reacted like that all the time tho it would just make him more fearful and confused and the fact that it rarely happens meant that when it did happen it had a huge impact on him.

But that's the only time so far I've had to get really full on with him and mostly I correct him gently and use praise a lot. But it really is an individual dog thing and I had help from expert folk at working out where he was coming from.

[Erny]

My feeling is that if I reacted like that all the time tho it would just make him more fearful and confused and the fact that it rarely happens meant that when it did happen it had a huge impact on him.

But if you NEEDED to react like that "all the time" it would be obvious that the method was not effective for the situation. Which means that you probably therefore wouldn't react like that "all the time". If that makes sense :D. Glad you were able to sort out that bit of behaviour before it went anywhere, though :D

[spottychick]

LOL I think I know what you mean. Makes my head hurt tho :D And thanks! He gets better everyday and I'm loving him atm :D

ETA Also I'd add my welcome to lupinbunny and congrats on taking on your adoptee. It's worth persevering with them and just keep in mind it may take a while. THe first thing he's doing is trying to work out what's going on now that he's suddenly in a new place amongst strangers etc. It's a lot for a wee doggy to take in just to start with!!

Edited May 6, 2010 by spottychick

[skip]

I would suggest getting a behaviourist also. When I adopted one boy he did bite me twice in the beginning - small nips in the face. I wasn't sure what I was doing anyway as he did have some issues and I was inexperienced with dogs. SO I went to the local vet, asked round at obedience and found 2 professional ladies who came to my house.

THis was not very costly and very simple instructions were given. The biting was due mainly to fear in his case but if I knew more I wouldn't have put the dog in the situation he was in when he nipped.

So it never happened again. Worth that extra help.

I remember being hurt thou when he bit me as you are here trying to give him a home and love etc. But from his view things are different. I also found taking the time to train your dog to do anything improves your relationship with the dog so much.

[lupinbunny]

Thanks guys. We do know an excellent trainer (the other pup went through puppy pre-school and beginners obedience with her), and I am bearing it in mind as an option. I think he is still settling in and finding his place with Lola, as well as us.

I've started with the triangle of temptation stuff, to make him focus on me... Seems he's fairly reluctant to listen to me. He was on the couch last night and I was standing there telling him 'off' with the hand gesture. Tried three or four times, calmly... he wasn't even looking up. Partner walks over and says it once, and off he goes, straight off the couch! I'm sure I'll get some disapproving looks for this, but when I tried again to make him listen my partner told me to grab his collar and guide him off the couch if he wasn't listening. I was reluctant, but it did make him move, and since then he's been listening to my 'off' command! Really, he should have credit for following point signals. Try as we might Lola has never quite gotten the idea of following a point.

So I think all round I need to work on being seen as an authority figure (or whatever the right term is... you know. That's it's appropriate and worthwhile to listen to me).

By 'growling' at him, I mean saying something like "No! You are not allowed to do that!" in a low-pitched voice.

Spottychick: when we went to get Buddy the shelter lady told us they had a beautiful dalmation that noone wanted, because it had a heart murmur. I asked if it was the cost of medication that was the problem, and she told us that it didn't even need medication! People just didn't want a 'sick' dog. Poor thing.

[~Anne~]

It sounds very much like what my Pug, Monte, does. I don't believe he is being aggressive when he does it though? Should I be perhaps?? To me, it is a bit like an over enthusiastic kiss but he has his mouth open. He usually will only cnnect with one lot of teeth too, usually top I think, and never both top and bottom at the same time so I don't think he is actually 'biting' at me.

When we first took him in 6 years ago, he caught me several times on the face in such a way. However, now I am used to it and I know when to move away. He ocassionaly will still get my nose though but this is rare these days ans it isn't really often that he does it now.

Is this the same as what everyone is describing here?

[Monah]

that's very sad about the dalmation, our heart murmur dog lived for 15 years, no meds.

I agree with all about the couch thing. Keep him off altogether. If he 'doesn't listen to you' at any time, it may not be best to repeat yourself several times, he will learn that he can ignore you and do as he pleases. I dont know the best ways to approach this but I would teach him OFF or SIT or WAIT (TOT is fantastic!! and treats for a quick response) and then if you say OFF and he stays where he is, he must be removed with his collar or however you think best, not aggressively though. It's quite important for dogs to learn to operate on one command, if there is danger or they need to recall etc. they need to know that they must come straight away, not fuss around and ignore you.

I'm sure this will all work out and a behaviourist would be helpful. Don't allow him any opportunities to lunge or nip your face, ie. keep your face out of his range, as if he gets used to doing it to you, it will become a habit (I know he has a habit already, but you are a new person). Remember too that if this happens to a guest, they may not like it much and complain, so the sooner he learns not to do it, the better for him xxxxxx

PS. Just wondered, telling him OFF with a signal, does he actually know what OFF and the signal mean?? learning 2 things at once may also be confusing. He needs to know words and what they mean, ie. you may need to show him

[spottychick]

Spottychick: when we went to get Buddy the shelter lady told us they had a beautiful dalmation that noone wanted, because it had a heart murmur. I asked if it was the cost of medication that was the problem, and she told us that it didn't even need medication! People just didn't want a 'sick' dog. Poor thing.

Oh no! Do you know if he's still there??? Maybe you could let the Dally Rescue people know. Which shelter is he at?

[corvus]

Anne, that sounds similar to what Erik does occasionally. I've always considered it an over-enthusiastic kiss as well, because he only does it if he's really excited and having a cuddle with you. It seems unpredictable to me as well, in that he gets super excited during cuddles a lot, more than once a day, and yet he only mouths occasionally. It is quite uncommon, so I don't bother much about it. Just put him back on the ground and that's that. This sounds a bit different, though? I think it's worth seeing an expert.

A good way to deal with "off" is to teach it as a game. Get some treats and teach them to target your hand with their nose, then get them to follow your hand up onto the couch, then off again until they are good enough to be taught a cue for it. "Up" cues can be useful when you want your dog to get into the car and that kind of thing.

My partner is more of a hard ass with the dogs than I am, but they are generally more obedient with me. Except for the tricks he taught them. That says a lot to me. They obey out of habit in the end. If I reward something a lot, the dogs will be more likely to do it if I ask for it, but if OH asks and rewards it more than I do, they are more reliable with him. The bigger/longer your reward history the more the dog pays attention to you IME.

[lupinbunny]

Spottychick: he was there last weekend when we got buddy. He's with Poundwatch in Perth. I didn't see him/ her as they only bring out 'suitable' dogs, and a dalmatian is definitely not suitable for our courtyard! :lol:

Monah: yeah, he does understand 'off', which is very, very cool. Well, he follows the hand gesture at least, don't know about the word alone. Two thumbs up to his previous owners! This morning in desperation for his breakfast he sat, then dropped, then rolled over! So I think I'll have to revise my previous 'basic training' assessment.

Anne: I think what you're describing is what's happening. Not sure if it's affection/ play/ what it is... but the physical description sounds right.

[OSoSwift]

YOu have some very sound advice.

The only other point I would make is if you tell him to get "Off" the lounge (or any other thing) only tell him once then take hold of his collar and remove him. If you tell him 3 or 4 times he will always wait that three or four times before doing it.

[bedazzledx2]

gremlins!

Thanks guys. We do know an excellent trainer (the other pup went through puppy pre-school and beginners obedience with her), and I am bearing it in mind as an option. I think he is still settling in and finding his place with Lola, as well as us.

I've started with the triangle of temptation stuff, to make him focus on me... Seems he's fairly reluctant to listen to me. He was on the couch last night and I was standing there telling him 'off' with the hand gesture. Tried three or four times, calmly... he wasn't even looking up. Partner walks over and says it once, and off he goes, straight off the couch! I'm sure I'll get some disapproving looks for this, but when I tried again to make him listen my partner told me to grab his collar and guide him off the couch if he wasn't listening. I was reluctant, but it did make him move, and since then he's been listening to my 'off' command! Really, he should have credit for following point signals. Try as we might Lola has never quite gotten the idea of following a point.

So I think all round I need to work on being seen as an authority figure (or whatever the right term is... you know. That's it's appropriate and worthwhile to listen to me).

By 'growling' at him, I mean saying something like "No! You are not allowed to do that!" in a low-pitched voice.

Spottychick: when we went to get Buddy the shelter lady told us they had a beautiful dalmation that noone wanted, because it had a heart murmur. I asked if it was the cost of medication that was the problem, and she told us that it didn't even need medication! People just didn't want a 'sick' dog. Poor thing.

Edited May 8, 2010 by bedazzledx2

[bedazzledx2]

If you teach him a hand touch you can have a simple non aggressive way to get him to follow directions. Very simple...present the palm of you hand to him a few centimeters from his nose. Be ready to mark, either with a clicker or a verbal "yes" and treat immediately. Mark his very first movement towards your hand...he need not touch it at this stage. Then progressively mark and treat a stronger touch. Select the best touches to mark and treat and then move your hand so that he has to shift to touch it. You now have a way of getting him to follow your hand. Very useful exercise and is one of the basics.

Thanks guys. We do know an excellent trainer (the other pup went through puppy pre-school and beginners obedience with her), and I am bearing it in mind as an option. I think he is still settling in and finding his place with Lola, as well as us.

I've started with the triangle of temptation stuff, to make him focus on me... Seems he's fairly reluctant to listen to me. He was on the couch last night and I was standing there telling him 'off' with the hand gesture. Tried three or four times, calmly... he wasn't even looking up. Partner walks over and says it once, and off he goes, straight off the couch! I'm sure I'll get some disapproving looks for this, but when I tried again to make him listen my partner told me to grab his collar and guide him off the couch if he wasn't listening. I was reluctant, but it did make him move, and since then he's been listening to my 'off' command! Really, he should have credit for following point signals. Try as we might Lola has never quite gotten the idea of following a point.

So I think all round I need to work on being seen as an authority figure (or whatever the right term is... you know. That's it's appropriate and worthwhile to listen to me).

By 'growling' at him, I mean saying something like "No! You are not allowed to do that!" in a low-pitched voice.

Spottychick: when we went to get Buddy the shelter lady told us they had a beautiful dalmation that noone wanted, because it had a heart murmur. I asked if it was the cost of medication that was the problem, and she told us that it didn't even need medication! People just didn't want a 'sick' dog. Poor thing.

[Staranais]

It sounds very much like what my Pug, Monte, does. I don't believe he is being aggressive when he does it though? Should I be perhaps?? To me, it is a bit like an over enthusiastic kiss but he has his mouth open. He usually will only cnnect with one lot of teeth too, usually top I think, and never both top and bottom at the same time so I don't think he is actually 'biting' at me.

When we first took him in 6 years ago, he caught me several times on the face in such a way. However, now I am used to it and I know when to move away. He ocassionaly will still get my nose though but this is rare these days ans it isn't really often that he does it now.

Is this the same as what everyone is describing here?

My mally girl does the same thing - snap snap snaps at my face to say hi. I don't mind her doing that as long as the teeth don't actually touch me.

She knows that teeth aren't allowed to connect with faces (or with any other part of me). I have no issue with growling at her if they ever accidentally do. And IMO it's her job to make sure her teeth don't connect, not my job to get out of the way of them!

[lupinbunny]

well, there's been no more face-dive/ nipping incidents! So far so good! The odd bit of mouthing that's corrected straight away (when he wants to play). There have been some dominance spats between Buddy and Lola... I'm letting them sort that out unless Buddy is being just too cranky (pretty sure he used to be an only dog. He's crazy resource-protective).

I got a snap at the face for trying to pick Buddy up when he didn't want to move but that's my own fault, plus no teeth connected. I know he's actually too heavy for me to lift easily, and he doesn't like being carried, and at the time he didn't want to move, and I can move him easily by guiding him with his collar, but no... I still tried to pick him up anyway. Just different to little miss Lol, who gets scooped up and deposited in the garden if she's being recalcitrant.

[persephone]

Sounds as if there is some learning happening :D