A Small Tiff In The Off-leash Park

[huski]

I assume the OP has read "He just wants to say Hi by Suzanne Clothier"? Essential reading for all dog owners, especially owners of overenthusiastic dogs.

Brilliant article - definitely a must read.

[Crisovar]

I think the fundamental issue is whether it is OK for an enthusiastic dog to come up and say Hi to another dog in an off-leash dog area. I reckon it is. In fact, that's why I go there.

And this is precisely why I DON'T go to 'dog parks'.

Thats fair enough and I would expect other people who dont want their dogs to be greeted by other dogs to also stay away from dog parks, there are plenty of parks that are not designated dog parks where they could take their dogs.

There is a big difference between a polite greeting and a over enthusiastic rude in your face, it is the rude dogs that get negative responses.

If dogs were under control effectively than so many of the incidents, many of which are simply a dog telling another to back off could be avoided.

[Paganman]

I assume the OP has read "He just wants to say Hi by Suzanne Clothier"? Essential reading for all dog owners, especially owners of overenthusiastic dogs.

Brilliant article - definitely a must read.

Thats one of the best most sensible articles I ever read its just spot on

[huski]

Suzanne Clothier writes some brilliant articles - there are more on her website here:

http://flyingdogpress.com/content/category/4/13/97/

[Just love my dogs!]

Agree totally with you. Or petition your council to have small and large dog areas in the off-leash dog parks. That's what I'm doing.

It sounds like a good idea to have small and large dog areas. I would be happy with that

[swazzie]

I find it hilarious that people seem to think dogs think like them.

I love my dogs to death, am defintely guilty of treating them like small people, however i know they are dogs and there is different rules in the dog world

What no one has said on this thread is that dogs adapt their play style to suit the size and age dogs they are playing/ interacting with.

We bring our dogs to a lovely dog park which is regurlarly visited by both big and small dogs and they all get along just fine.

I see examples every day of the bigger dogs playing in a different manner to accomodate the smaller size of the dogs ie the big ones rough and thumble and with the smaller ones, it depends on how much the smaller ones likes to play/ run/ chase etc

I've seen my dogs and other large breed dogs bowing to smaller dogs.. it depends who's the boss that particular day.

I understand the above doesn't apply to all dogs, maybe just the well adjusted ones who have been taught manners.

However , there is no excuse for bad behaviour in dogs either in or out of off leash parks.

It is up to people to train their own dogs how to behave and i believe having off leash parks is a great training ground.

[Erny]

Agree totally with you. Or petition your council to have small and large dog areas in the off-leash dog parks. That's what I'm doing.

It sounds like a good idea to have small and large dog areas. I would be happy with that

Two sides to that coin.

I agree that people just want to (and should be able to) enjoy the freedom of peace, quiet and relative safety when their out (with or without their dogs).

I also work hard at not subjecting my dogs to undesirable fate at the hands of other people whom, without knowing them and their dogs, I can only assume (for safety reasons) that they and their dog/s are not likely to be friendly and/or responsible/knowledgeable dog-owners.

The sad part is that everything we do in life with our dogs (and even everything about our restrictive dog laws) seems to be about avoidance, avoidance, avoidance.

The more we avoid; the more we place bans on things our dogs can/can't do, the less life experiences they get and therefore the less likely that they will have the opportunity to be well-balanced, sensitive dogs, learning to be aware and exhibit self-control.

If we could scrap half of our dog laws, start over and raise our dogs in an environment as they do in the UK, we would find our dogs to be far more calm and less reactive to others (regardless of size) and we'd also find the dog-owners themselves exhibiting being more in touch with instinctive dog-handling/training/behaviour attributes than what we are achieving here.

As it is, with every law/regulation/by-law that comes in, we're getting further and further away from this possibility.

And all of this started with irresponsible/disrespectful dog-owners.

It's a vicious cycle we have got ourselves caught in.

Edited May 8, 2010 by Erny

[Earthdog]

I find it hilarious that people seem to think dogs think like them.

I love my dogs to death, am defintely guilty of treating them like small people, however i know they are dogs and there is different rules in the dog world

What no one has said on this thread is that dogs adapt their play style to suit the size and age dogs they are playing/ interacting with.

We bring our dogs to a lovely dog park which is regurlarly visited by both big and small dogs and they all get along just fine.

I see examples every day of the bigger dogs playing in a different manner to accomodate the smaller size of the dogs ie the big ones rough and thumble and with the smaller ones, it depends on how much the smaller ones likes to play/ run/ chase etc

I've seen my dogs and other large breed dogs bowing to smaller dogs.. it depends who's the boss that particular day.

I understand the above doesn't apply to all dogs, maybe just the well adjusted ones who have been taught manners.

However , there is no excuse for bad behaviour in dogs either in or out of off leash parks.

It is up to people to train their own dogs how to behave and i believe having off leash parks is a great training ground.

It's not about playing styles, it's about ill mannered dogs rushing unknown dogs in 'greeting'. I work hard to ensure my little dog is social and not a snappy, yappy little dog.

[Adnil444]

Agree totally with you. Or petition your council to have small and large dog areas in the off-leash dog parks. That's what I'm doing.

It sounds like a good idea to have small and large dog areas. I would be happy with that

Two sides to that coin.

I agree that people just want to (and should be able to) enjoy the freedom of peace, quiet and relative safety when their out (with or without their dogs).

I also work hard at not subjecting my dogs to undesirable fate at the hands of other people whom, without knowing them and their dogs, I can only assume (for safety reasons) that they and their dog/s are not likely to be friendly and/or responsible/knowledgeable dog-owners.

The sad part is that everything we do in life with our dogs (and even everything about our restrictive dog laws) seems to be about avoidance, avoidance, avoidance.

The more we avoid; the more we place bans on things our dogs can/can't do, the less life experiences they get and therefore the less likely that they will have the opportunity to be well-balanced, sensitive dogs, learning to be aware and exhibit self-control.

If we could scrap half of our dog laws, start over and raise our dogs in an environment as they do in the UK, we would find our dogs to be far more calm and less reactive to others (regardless of size) and we'd also find the dog-owners themselves exhibiting being more in touch with instinctive dog-handling/training/behaviour attributes than what we are achieving here.

As it is, with every law/regulation/by-law that comes in, we're getting further and further away from this possibility.

And all of this started with irresponsible/disrespectful dog-owners.

It's a vicious cycle we have got ourselves caught in.

Hi Erny, I didn't think of it like that and it makes sense. You're right, we as people live with so many rules and regulations and we also avoid - take kids for instance, when I was a kid we played in the creeks, went into the bush etc etc, nowadays kids don't get that exposure, they have "soft-fall" playgrounds fenced in etc etc. We have become afraid of what might be and councils probably just see a law suit if something goes wrong.

I don't know the answer to this though. How does every dog owner learn these skills? I'm sure many dog owners barely have time to walk their dogs let alone get in touch with their dogs.

I'm going back a while now, but the last of our family dogs that was allowed to roam free (there were no council laws about keeping your dog in a yard and only taking it out on lead, except for guard dogs). She would walk with us to the school bus stop and meet us there in the afternoon - she would take herself of on walks, meet other dogs etc etc. This was the same situation as lots of other dogs in our area (and I assume most areas as there were no laws). There were also less breeds than there are today. There were labs, german shephards, the odd doberman, foxies, beagles, and lots of crossbreeds (assuming because desexing wasn't such a huge issue). I hadn't heard of staffies until I was about 18, they were just not around in those days. There were less fights, you never heard of anyone getting bitten or attacked, but I'm sure it did happen. Dogs back then did seem to be more stable because of their freedom.

I wish there was an answer to this but I don't know how to fix this.

[Adnil444]

The parks are there so that dogs can be exercised off-lead.

That's exactly right. The parks aren't labelled "doggy kindergarten".

Hi Erny, but I think that is what they have become. The park I go to regularly can have 50 dogs (sometimes more) in it. Which is just too many in my opinion and this is when most incidents occur. I am now trying to avoid "peak hour" at the park and use it when it is quieter. I have heard of some dogs parks that have timeslots, which may be an option so to reduce incidents.

You will find many people rush home from work, grab the car keys and the dog, drive them to the park and let them loose for the 30 mins or so and they have a chat with others (some bring a beer or two) and basically ignore their dogs for that entire time.

If I can't get to the dog park in out of peak hour, I am giving my dogs lead walks and working on their other social skills - meeting people, dogs etc in the streets, moving to the side of the footpath to let others pass, sitting at the kerb before crossing, I feel that these skills are also valuable in developing well balanced dogs as much as making sure they get plenty of socialisation with other dogs.

[furballs]

I'm sure many dog owners barely have time to walk their dogs let alone get in touch with their dogs.

ummmm, don't have a dog then. Contrary to what some people seem to think, dogs are not an accessory.

[Erny]

If I can't get to the dog park in out of peak hour, I am giving my dogs lead walks and working on their other social skills - meeting people, dogs etc in the streets, moving to the side of the footpath to let others pass, sitting at the kerb before crossing, I feel that these skills are also valuable in developing well balanced dogs as much as making sure they get plenty of socialisation with other dogs.

I do the same, Adnil444. These social skills are very important, IMO. In fact, dogs learning to be able to ignore other dogs is something that is also important, but not that many people give credence to. Not every place in life is a park.

[Black Bronson]

I think the fundamental issue is whether it is OK for an enthusiastic dog to come up and say Hi to another dog in an off-leash dog area. I reckon it is. In fact, that's why I go there. There's plenty of other places I go when I am doing other stuff with my dog. If I see dogs that look suspect, we walk around the situation. Sure, my dog has had a few anti-social moments like an intrusive sniff, an attempted herding or a unprovoked snap from a SWF, but she's wiser for the experience and its part of life's journey. Thanks to playful Labs in particular, I've seen my dog become a lot more dynamic in her active socialization. To have the adventure, you have to be out there with other dogs. And that means taking a chance that it won't be an orchestrated event where everything runs according to my own envisaged script. I have high expectations from my dog regarding recall and obedience, but to anticipate anything like that from others would set me up for constant disappointment. So I just go with the flow, and thank goodness that that there are places where dogs can stretch their legs.

Are you saying that if your enthusiastic dog bounded up to say hello to a dog that didn't appreciate the attention and it was attacked and killed............you would just go with the flow???. I am guessing that you would scream blue murder that the attacking dog shouldn't have been there???. On the other hand, had your dog not invaded it's space, it wouldn't have happened. It's a bit of a scenario of what comes first, the chicken or the egg

[Longdog]

Firstly, I have had a gorgeous lab (dec) who I put through Obedience, so I am experienced with the labrador breed and mixing with other dogs. I now have a miniature dachshund who I have regular walked in an off-lead area. My dog is well socialised and obedient and played with all size/breeds of dogs including mature labradors (her favourite being a ridgeback). However, I have to say the breed that I have the most problem with my little dog is "over-enthusiastic" and "friendly" young labradors with owners who say "my dog is just playing/friendly. These dogs would literally bounce over her, bowl her over and spin her around like a top. This treatment cannot in any way be classifed as safe play. It was bordering on play/prey. I find this situation "dangerous" and cannot understand how it can be interpreted as anything else.

Let's face it, it comes down to one thing - dog handlers respect of others. I have never let my dog approach another dog (labrador, dachshund or my german shepherd) unless I've had some kind of indication from the dog's handler (whether off/on lead). If I don't get a response then I recall my dog and keep walking.

Isn't it called "manners"???

Mrs Tornsocks, at least you are asking for advice and I'm sure you will take into consideration small dog owners' situation next time you are offlead with your dog. i think you will find that if you approach one of them with your dog (without the bouncing affect), you will find they will happily let your dog socialise (and learn) to play with them. I certainly would if you approached me - you would show you are a responsible dog owner!

[Black Bronson]

Firstly, I have had a gorgeous lab (dec) who I put through Obedience, so I am experienced with the labrador breed and mixing with other dogs. I now have a miniature dachshund who I have regular walked in an off-lead area. My dog is well socialised and obedient and played with all size/breeds of dogs including mature labradors (her favourite being a ridgeback). However, I have to say the breed that I have the most problem with my little dog is "over-enthusiastic" and "friendly" young labradors with owners who say "my dog is just playing/friendly. These dogs would literally bounce over her, bowl her over and spin her around like a top. This treatment cannot in any way be classifed as safe play. It was bordering on play/prey. I find this situation "dangerous" and cannot understand how it can be interpreted as anything else.

Let's face it, it comes down to one thing - dog handlers respect of others. I have never let my dog approach another dog (labrador, dachshund or my german shepherd) unless I've had some kind of indication from the dog's handler (whether off/on lead). If I don't get a response then I recall my dog and keep walking.

Isn't it called "manners"???

Mrs Tornsocks, at least you are asking for advice and I'm sure you will take into consideration small dog owners' situation next time you are offlead with your dog. i think you will find that if you approach one of them with your dog (without the bouncing affect), you will find they will happily let your dog socialise (and learn) to play with them. I certainly would if you approached me - you would show you are a responsible dog owner!

Nice post Longdog, I fully agree with your perspective

[Adnil444]

If I can't get to the dog park in out of peak hour, I am giving my dogs lead walks and working on their other social skills - meeting people, dogs etc in the streets, moving to the side of the footpath to let others pass, sitting at the kerb before crossing, I feel that these skills are also valuable in developing well balanced dogs as much as making sure they get plenty of socialisation with other dogs.

I do the same, Adnil444. These social skills are very important, IMO. In fact, dogs learning to be able to ignore other dogs is something that is also important, but not that many people give credence to. Not every place in life is a park.

Hi Erny, thanks for that. I'm always hoping I'm doing the right thing by my dogs and from their natures and the fact they are a pleasure now to take on leash walks, I'm probably doing something right. How many times a week would a romp at the dog park be beneficial do you think. If I go 2-3 times a week and the other days leash walks, I'm assuming that their social skills will be kept up. I walk my dogs for just over an hour in the morning (one off lead at the park and the other on-lead as she has found out that there are rabbits and have been a few feral cats and wants to chase them, the other one doesn't care about such things). Then in the afternoon, I take them to the dog park 2-3 times a week (out of peak hour time) and the other afternoons, long leash walks (approx 1hr). They always get their morning walk, sometimes though I may have to miss the afternoon walk (work or son's sporting commitments, though this is rare).

I also think it is vitally important that my dogs learn to ignore other dogs or other distractions around them, yes not everything in life is a romp in the park, they like us, have to learn by some manners and some rules.

[Erny]

What you're doing sounds good to me - in fact you're probably doing more than many are able to.

[Adnil444]

What you're doing sounds good to me - in fact you're probably doing more than many are able to.

Thanks Erny, glad to hear. Since having my dogs, I certainly have become a lot fitter and slimmer!!

The other thing that I forgot to mention is I also take one to my son's league game on a Saturday and the other to his rugby union game on Sundays. The sports fields are great places for people socialisation. They love going (my son thinks they are the team's mascots). I've done this right from the word go and they are used to screaming kids, lots of noise and bustle. Does amaze me though the amount of people who let their toddlers and young kids run straight up to them and hug them etc. I let the parents know nicely that you should always ask the owners first if the dog can be patted (mine love it, but I watch them and the kids very closely).

[Earthdog]

100% agree Longdog.