A Small Tiff In The Off-leash Park

[persephone]

if it were me I would have also grabbed my small dog.. and endeavoured to move well away. I have been caught by people saying- It's ok... he just wants to play... blah, blah, blah. edit to add- being honest, I would have asked/called out for you to call your dog back - probably without being terribly polite :D

YOU know your dog- other people don't, and so take whatever action they think best at the time. Maybe some of the mans' comments were not accurate, but maybe that's just how he DID see things ?

people's personal space can be quite a large area- and they try and give their pets the same

Edited May 6, 2010 by persephone

[corvus]

I think this so-called "effective control" is a bit improbable. I mean, how can you ever guarantee that level of control?

Most of the lack of control we commonly see at off-lead parks CAN be improved. It's because people either don't recognise or recognise and don't want to make the effort to improve the weak areas of their dog's training, that improvement is not gained. They "excuse" it.

Okay, but the thing is, you can't make people into what they are not. You can't expect everyone to put the level of work into their dogs as you do. The world just doesn't work like that, and to say that it should is also irrelevant. It doesn't. That is the fact. It's not a matter of excusing oneself, it's a matter of motivation.

I'm a fan of making rules that can actually be followed. I think that rules that are unrealistic get ignored and that's what we are seeing at dog parks. It's not defeatist to acknowledge that a rule is unrealistic.

I have enormous recall control with my dog, even around other dogs. Its the other dogs in the park that don't, that cause the problems.

We all know. Who hasn't heard it? But the thing is, putting the onus on other people is as good as being defeatist about it anyway, because they won't live to your rules. A problem is only a problem if you're not prepared for it. If you sit there and insist that everyone is doing the wrong thing, how does that help your dog? It doesn't. What helps your dog is training them to cope with other dogs being "problems" at the dog park if you want to use a dog park.

If you feel the need to apologise "pretty regularly" then it indicates to me something is amiss. Things do happen - we like to think we have eyes in the backs of our heads, but we don't. But for these "unforeseen" incidents to be occurring on a regular basis, something isn't quite right.

That can "indicate" anything you like to you. To me, I just do my best and try to stay honest about my dogs' behaviour. I've got videos of my boys at the park if anyone wants to see them and question my honesty. I've never actually been yelled at, or told off at a dog park, so I find it difficult to believe something "isn't quite right". It's not like I'm not motivated to avoid apologising to strangers. By "pretty regularly" I mean I'm not sure how often it happens. Not every day, probably not every week, but maybe once a fortnight or once a month. I don't know. If I apologised to someone every time my dogs did something I wasn't anticipating it would be daily, though. That's what I love about animals. They always have surprises for you.

[Nevafollo]

I'm also 100% certain my Pointer wouldnt prevoke an attack nor do I think she would retailiate if she was being attacked shes quite submissive with dogs. Still I very rarely have her off lead as she doesnt have great recall but then I havent worked on it with her, I do usually have her on a nice big lunge lead thou. She plays nicely with dogs of all types and all sorts of temperments.

ETA cant say the same for my pugs they are dominated little bitches and would find a large dog bouncing at the rather intemidating so would react poorly which is why I rarely take the to off lead areas any more!

Edited May 6, 2010 by sammy_ballerina

[kated]

My 6 month old border collie is terrible. He bounds up to anything and everything at the park and after about 3 seconds of play time he decides to jump on and have a hump He has a thing for small fluffy dogs as well so if he sees one it's a straight beeline for it's backside and he will not leave the dog alone unless I lead him. At present I am enquiring with some trainers to do some off leash work but in the interim I just keep him on the lead at all times now! It's extremely frustrating and embarrassing and while 90% of the people I've encountered have been good (I guess cause he is a cute puppy they think it's funny!) there have been the odd occasions of foul looks and shaken heads. Fairly so though, he is fricken terrible and I swear I've almost thrown him in the river 100 times!

I don't mind dogs bounding up to me when I am at the park but then again it's a personal preference, some people only get a small window of opportunity to walk their dogs every day and I completely understand you don't want to be hindered with a humping disobedient border collie!

[W Sibs]

It's about respecting other peoples right to use the same space as you - not everyone wants big dogs bounding up to their small ones and this is where you have to bomb proof the recall.

It also means paying complete attention to your dog at all times - and this is where most people in dog parks fall down. Too busy chatting away without regard to their dog's behaviour.

I have a giant breed and took him to the park yesterday. He had a lot of pent up energy as he'd not had much of a walk in the last couple of days and we were over to the side where no other dogs were (only 3 small dogs in the big park). I kept Boo to the side and let him run around. One of the small dogs came over towards us so I recalled Boo and clipped on the lead (knowing he'd be too boisterous). Dog lost interest and went away. Let Boo off. Little dog came back so I clipped Boo on lead again and walked further away. Happened one more time too before I decided to leave the park.

Owner paid no attention to the fact that I clearly did not want her dog interacting with Boo and made no attempt to recall it to leave us alone. Was quite frustrating.

ETA re the side question - I am very confident that my dog would never start a fight. Even when other dogs have had a go at him, if offlead, he runs rather than defending himself - and this is a 2 year old entire male.

Yeah... owners must always keep their eyes on their dog. their dog, their responsibility. the boyfriend, charlie and i go to the dog park for a walk and hang out together. but, sometimes we end up playing with other dogs (distract them from playing hard with charlie) because the owner is on the other side of the park chatting on the phone or other people.

I am 100% sure that Charlie won't start a fight.

[Zhou Xuanyao]

My mums got a Golden Retriever was like that.

Aside from bieng BIG, he is also dumb, overbearing, and very dominant to other males.

He was like yours when he was younger, but he came across a few customers that were not going to take his crap so he soon learned.

Unfortunatly, what he "learned" was infact not to back off, but to become aggressive. So he used to be a big oaf that bounded up to other dogs in a friendly way, now his a big oaf that bounds up to other dogs (large males) and tries to stand over them. So now he can't be taken anywhere offleash.

It was his natural tempermant to kind of be this way, the dominance and not having a brain, but I think the aggressive edge was learned, and I think it was learned because he was allowed to intimidate other dogs when he was younger.

[Mas1981]

We were just at the offlead park this morning and Mason had a lovely play with 4 other dogs ranging from a deerhound to a poodle - all was happy and I can say with 110% that he would never be aggressive to another dog or start a fight, even my cats are more dominant than him! There were some tiny dogs there that ganged up on him and chased him growling and barking so its not just big dogs who are a problem, the little ones can be just as bad. Mason will run up and greet other dogs, if I call him 90% of the time he will come back to me but he is a dog so i would never say that he has 100% recall.

[mrs tornsocks]

Just got back from a walk in the off-leash park. It's normally rather chaotic but I have never seen any aggro outside a few growls and warnings.

My boy is a 1yo lab, so quite big (not quite fully grown) and bouncy but well behaved generally. He bounces up to everyone (dogs) and crouches wagging tail like mad until they sniff him. The reaction can then be anything to more sniffs to immediate play fighting depending on other dogs' reactions. He has been 'warned' plenty of times by dogs big and small and backs off every time.

Couple walking their small white, maybe maltese (not tiny weeny, although small). Archie bounded up, and he does bound, so 30kgs is quite a sight to people who don't know him. The woman immediately picked up the swf (that was growling and barking at Archie), while I was constantly reassuring both wife and hubby that Archie would absolutely not hurt him at all, he's completely harmless. Archie also responds well to 'gentle' when he's playing with smaller dogs and once he reaches them, will definitely slow down / back off. Husband said very roughly "he is going for our dog", I replied "no I promise you he's not, he is totally friendly" .... and he made some other rude comment about how Archie was stressing everyone in the dog park despite there being plenty of dogs his size and bigger romping around. Arch tried to play with a few other little ones and was fine, owners reactions ranged from smiling to one who called their dog away and Archie moved on.

Should I really put him on leash in these circumstances, given owners are all so different ?

I was really tempted to say to this bloke "the only person that's stressing is you and you're passing that straight on to your dog, especially by lifting him up". But I can obviously understand his concern for his dog's wellbeing and uncertainty about a big bouncy boy.

Archie doesn't back off every time then.

Not exactly sure what you mean. He has to approach before he can back off --- obviously he doesn't back off when another dog says 'yes, I want to play', but the moment they say no I don't want to play (via growls or moving away or whatever), he backs off or walks away. In this case, the little dog didn't have a chance to react directly to Archie, because his mum picked him up straight away. He was growling etc in her arms, so presumably the owners figured their dog wouldn't want to play, and neither really did Archie or I until dog was in the arms of the owner.

But yes, both dogs want to have to play, absolutely. I didn't call him back because 9 times out of 10 -in my experience in this particular chaotic park - dogs do bound up to each other. I put him back on lead for a while after this, let him loose again and unfortunately didn't see two other little ones coming up to him. He didn't quite rush to them but they all sniffed each other and moved on, and the owner of the second two smiled at me and vice versa.

He had a great play with a group of about 6 other mostly bigger dogs who had pretty much all bounded up to each other (and one schnauzer who kept joining in) and then we all went on our way.

None of this means Archie or I wuz right, just means I'll know better next time.

Edited May 6, 2010 by mrs tornsocks

[Erny]

Okay, but the thing is, you can't make people into what they are not. You can't expect everyone to put the level of work into their dogs as you do. The world just doesn't work like that, and to say that it should is also irrelevant. It doesn't. That is the fact. It's not a matter of excusing oneself, it's a matter of motivation.

Hhhhhmmm .... wonder what the relevant Council's response would be to that. "I don't want to put the level of work into my dog so that I can have effective control and you can't make me into what I'm not, but it's ok, because I apologise to other people regularly."

To say the "world just doesn't work like that" ??? .... IMO, that's another excuse.

The law is that you must maintain effective control regardless of whether your dog is on or off-lead, even in a park designated "off-lead". There's no grey to it. If you are unable to achieve the effective control you need, then you need to look at your training method/s. But you might not, just as other people don't. Because their majority rules and the ones who are super conscious of their dogs and their dog's training needs stay clear of the people in those parks if they don't have the flexibility to be able to choose alternative quiet times and avoid the others who think it is ok, provided they apologise of course.

I wonder if some of the people would be "motivated" to training their dogs to a more reliable skill level if they were the ones who were barred from using off-lead dog parks until they did.

Yes - I'm being pointed now, because of the argument you are trying to put up in defense of having a dog that isn't command reliable. IMO, it doesn't wash.

Edited May 6, 2010 by Erny

[Mas1981]

I am also of the opinion that no dog can have 100% recall, every dog has something that will tempt it to ignore its owner, it may be a cat, food, birds or other dogs. I know someone who compete in obedience with their dog, dog wins competitions etc lovely recall but if people have food the dog ignores the owner so no dog is temptation free but thats just my opinion.

[mrs tornsocks]

I am also of the opinion that no dog can have 100% recall, every dog has something that will tempt it to ignore its owner, it may be a cat, food, birds or other dogs. I know someone who compete in obedience with their dog, dog wins competitions etc lovely recall but if people have food the dog ignores the owner so no dog is temptation free but thats just my opinion.

I think there's also another thread on this MM. Haven't been in there because as soon as I saw the words '100%' and 'recall' next to each other, I knew I didn't really belong :D

Edited May 6, 2010 by mrs tornsocks

[Tilly]

My dogs have only ever been attacked by "friendly dogs"...

[dee lee]

For what its worth I think that the SWF's owner was right to feel uncomfortable about the situation, but I dont see your dog's behaviour as being overly bad, just being a typical silly pup.

My dog would not like your dog bounding up to her and if he was to jump on her she would tell him off and walk away.

At the park where we go most days there used to be a pack of dog owners and their young silly dogs. Whenever we would walk anywhere near them they would be over bearing and rudely behaved to both Honey and I. So I was obviously at pains to avoid them.

One in particular was an absolute PITA, a pushy welsh springer girl who would harrass any dog or person in her vicinity, especially if they were using balls- which she would steal.

She was allowed to get away with murder- I never saw her owner exert a single bit of control over her. I learnt to stop any ball throwing within her view.

Now the funny thing is, recently the little pack of owners seems to have disbanded. Of them all only this WSS seems to still come, and wouldnt you know it, without all her little "friends" she seems quite well behaved!!!

This seems to support the theory that I subscribe to, which is that standing around watching and chatting while your dog rumbles and plays, means that your dog is learning from the other dogs how to behave, not you. Unfortunately that behaviour is not necessarily the most acceptable, especially in a public park. Not to mention that you run the risk of other dogs becoming much more fun than you to your dog.

I believe the best way to deal with offlead dog parks is to walk through them. Allow your dog to socialise briefly but then keep walking, keeping your dog's attention on you.

[RallyValley]

I have began to put Toby on a lead when I see other dogs at off leash areas. Toby will tell a dog off that is a similar size to him for getting in his face with a growl which makes people think my dog is aggresive and could start something if the other dog reacts to Toby's telling off. The worst is when I avoid another dog and ask the person to put it on a leash and the owner says "It's friendly" to me that screams ignorance because my on leash dog won't appreciate yours in it's face and may even growl at you dog.

Also when I say "mines not" this does not mean you can say "good my dog needs to be taught a lesson!" if you want your dog to learn that way do it in a controlled enviroment with a dog you know and that you can predict the reaction of. I can honestly say that if the wrong dog came into Toby's face and they got all narky I don't trust him which is why he stays on lead unless I know the dog .

Saying this the most Toby has ever done is make noise, he has never harmed aother dog.

Edited May 6, 2010 by valleyCBR

[Bully]

He Just Wants To Say "Hi!" a brilliant article by Suzanne Clothier that all dog owners should read IMO :D

[Bully]

Also when I say "mines not" this does not mean you can say "good my dog needs to be taught a lesson!" if you want your dog to learn that way do it in a controlled enviroment with a dog you know and that you can predict the reaction of.

Exactly, and the other idiot owner doesn't realise/care that you don't want your dog to practise any bad behaviour :D

[sas]

Just got back from a walk in the off-leash park. It's normally rather chaotic but I have never seen any aggro outside a few growls and warnings.

My boy is a 1yo lab, so quite big (not quite fully grown) and bouncy but well behaved generally. He bounces up to everyone (dogs) and crouches wagging tail like mad until they sniff him. The reaction can then be anything to more sniffs to immediate play fighting depending on other dogs' reactions. He has been 'warned' plenty of times by dogs big and small and backs off every time.

Couple walking their small white, maybe maltese (not tiny weeny, although small). Archie bounded up, and he does bound, so 30kgs is quite a sight to people who don't know him. The woman immediately picked up the swf (that was growling and barking at Archie), while I was constantly reassuring both wife and hubby that Archie would absolutely not hurt him at all, he's completely harmless. Archie also responds well to 'gentle' when he's playing with smaller dogs and once he reaches them, will definitely slow down / back off. Husband said very roughly "he is going for our dog", I replied "no I promise you he's not, he is totally friendly" .... and he made some other rude comment about how Archie was stressing everyone in the dog park :D despite there being plenty of dogs his size and bigger romping around. Arch tried to play with a few other little ones and was fine, owners reactions ranged from smiling to one who called their dog away and Archie moved on.

Should I really put him on leash in these circumstances, given owners are all so different ?

I was really tempted to say to this bloke "the only person that's stressing is you and you're passing that straight on to your dog, especially by lifting him up". But I can obviously understand his concern for his dog's wellbeing and uncertainty about a big bouncy boy.

Yep, you need to teach your dog some more control and how to appropriately meet other dogs.

Their dog was obviously uncomfortable with the large boundign dog running towards it otherwise your dog is going to find itself bounding up to the wrong dog one of these days.

[Mas1981]

My best experience this guy with a muzzled german shepherd walking in my neighbourhood offlead I am walking mine onlead - his dog jumps on mine, pins him to the floor and my dog is yelping and trying to get away he says to me ' he is just dominant he would never hurt him " - WHATEVER!!

[Erny]

Hey .... there's some really intelligent and knowledgeable responses in this thread, indicating awareness to responsibility and rights and respect towards other people. :D .... good to see and hear :D.

[furballs]

Not all dogs like having a jumpy dog in their face, big or small. My BC doesn't deliberately go out of her way to fight with other dogs, but if a dog continually runs and jumps at her she will go for it. People with dogs who do this should be able to read the other dog's body language and call their dog off. Just because your dog is friendly, doesn't mean everyone elses dog is going to like it.