A Small Tiff In The Off-leash Park

[mrs tornsocks]

Just got back from a walk in the off-leash park. It's normally rather chaotic but I have never seen any aggro outside a few growls and warnings.

My boy is a 1yo lab, so quite big (not quite fully grown) and bouncy but well behaved generally. He bounces up to everyone (dogs) and crouches wagging tail like mad until they sniff him. The reaction can then be anything to more sniffs to immediate play fighting depending on other dogs' reactions. He has been 'warned' plenty of times by dogs big and small and backs off every time.

Couple walking their small white, maybe maltese (not tiny weeny, although small). Archie bounded up, and he does bound, so 30kgs is quite a sight to people who don't know him. The woman immediately picked up the swf (that was growling and barking at Archie), while I was constantly reassuring both wife and hubby that Archie would absolutely not hurt him at all, he's completely harmless. Archie also responds well to 'gentle' when he's playing with smaller dogs and once he reaches them, will definitely slow down / back off. Husband said very roughly "he is going for our dog", I replied "no I promise you he's not, he is totally friendly" .... and he made some other rude comment about how Archie was stressing everyone in the dog park despite there being plenty of dogs his size and bigger romping around. Arch tried to play with a few other little ones and was fine, owners reactions ranged from smiling to one who called their dog away and Archie moved on.

Should I really put him on leash in these circumstances, given owners are all so different ?

I was really tempted to say to this bloke "the only person that's stressing is you and you're passing that straight on to your dog, especially by lifting him up". But I can obviously understand his concern for his dog's wellbeing and uncertainty about a big bouncy boy.

Edited May 6, 2010 by mrs tornsocks

[corvus]

They are probably at this moment on another forum bitching about idiot labs and their owners that get in their doggy's face.

I think it's not hard to just put a dog on leash if it is upsetting someone, regardless of whether they should be upset or not. Live and let live.

[kendall]

Personally I wouldnt be happy about a large dog rushing/bounding up to my dog - how am I to know that your dog is friendly? If you read on here, there are many stories of people/dogs being rushed at by another dog and that owner saying "he won't do anything, he's harmless" while the dog attacks.

Archie might be a friendly dog but I don't think you should allow him to run up to all of the dogs - let them be introduced another way and then they can play if all goes well . I don't take my dogs to offlead parks so not really sure of the 'rules'. :p

[DerRottweiler]

Small dog owners can be quite paranoid and you can't blame them with all the horror stories you hear. Although they shouldn't pick up their dog, this makes it more appealing for the other dog.

My dog is not allowed to go up to any dog unless I either get a verbal or non-verbal sign from the other owner, he does like to play rough and is dominant. Also some dogs are scared of other dogs and if the owner is helping them overcome this fear, other dogs ''in their face'' doesn't really help the situation.

Overall, I don't think you did anything wrong, neither did the small dog owner. Breakdown of communication and understanding IMO.

[blacklabrador]

It's a bad habit of young labs and yes it is more likely to get them bitten or at least snapped at. If I was 5kg Malteaser and had 30kg of large dog zoned in on me at great speed I would probably react too. I get that owners get pretty pissed with the situation too.

My oldest boy was a shocker for this up until he was 2 or 3. He got snapped at plenty of times before he learnt good manners in how to approach other dogs. These days he's not really interested in playing with other dogs much at all which is great! (only my other dogs at home). There is a great article about "rude greetings" which I'm sure somebody will link to.

There would be ways that you could prevent this behaviour - I am sure somebody here will be able to suggest some strategies for you.

Edited May 6, 2010 by blacklabrador

[blissirritated]

The woman immediately picked up the swf (that was growling and barking at Archie),

Would you have let Archie "bound" up to a bigger dog that was growling back at him?

There are a million and one threads here about people going to off-leash parks and other dogs running up into their dogs faces while the owner says "Oh but he's friendly". Those threads never end well, regardless of the dog's intentions.

[mrs tornsocks]

Fairy nuff, and absolutely, it is easy to put him on the leash and I can totally appreciate little 'uns paranoia. Was reading that horrible other thread with the injuries to schnauzer and maltese, which looked awful. I suppose I was a little surprised by the harsh reaction of the owner, particularly as Archie had sniffed one or two others small ones and owners generally smile and we all move on (including Archie who usually finds no interest in the littlies and vice versa). As far as bounding, no, it's not ideal, he is still pretty young though, and he is improving every time we go to this particular park (too crowded for my liking so we go once every few months at best). He recalled pretty much every time, and my mistake for not realising earlier that I should have called him off this particular dog sooner. The other dog was actually displaying some quite aggressive behaviour in his mum's arms although obviously I don't know his history.

All good

[Paulp]

My two labs are like yours, over enthusiastic! I am very concious of how they approach other dogs and will put them on lead whenever someone else comes within range with another dog until I can communicate with the owners. They are never looking for a fight but especially having two of them they will easily intimidate other dogs big and small.

Just re read your post, if you are in a signed off lead area, especially if there are already several dogs off lead, then I would say it is up to the people entering with thier dog if they want to interact with the dogs already there, if they don't then they shouldn't enter.

[Erny]

By law, you are supposed to have effective control over your dog at all times, and that means off-lead as well (regardless of whether it's an off-lead park). So why not call your dog back to you and check with people if it's ok for your dog to meet theirs?

If the answer is that you don't have the ability to be able to call Archie back once he's on a mission to meet other dogs, then that tells you one area of weakness in your training of him that needs some work .

It's not about whose interpretation of whether which dog or either was going to aggress or not, is right or wrong. It's about whether you can demonstrate that you have control of your dog and then whether you exercise that control, or not. Regardless of Archie's intentions, how do you know that any of the dogs and/or people he approaches are going to think kindly of it without checking first?

Edited May 6, 2010 by Erny

[mrs tornsocks]

The woman immediately picked up the swf (that was growling and barking at Archie),

Would you have let Archie "bound" up to a bigger dog that was growling back at him?

There are a million and one threads here about people going to off-leash parks and other dogs running up into their dogs faces while the owner says "Oh but he's friendly". Those threads never end well, regardless of the dog's intentions.

Unfortunately he does do this sometimes, he almost aways runs away / backs off when he gets growled at (including littlies). The small one was in his mum's arms by the time archie actually reached him.

[Erny]

My two labs are like yours, over enthusiastic! I am very concious of how they approach other dogs and will put them on lead whenever someone else comes within range with another dog until I can communicate with the owners. They are never looking for a fight but especially having two of them they will easily intimidate other dogs big and small.

Just re read your post, if you are in a signed off lead area, especially if there are already several dogs off lead, then I would say it is up to the people entering with thier dog if they want to interact with the dogs already there, if they don't then they shouldn't enter.

Technically, this is not right. Although admittedly it is the current days' common consensus of opinion by most of those who take their dogs and use the off-lead areas for exactly that purpose. But effective control is what each and everyone of them is supposed to have before they exercise the privilege of being allowed to let their dogs off-lead. Unfortunately, because so many people have the attitude of "if you don't want dogs running over to you in an off-lead area then don't come here" it's too hard to battle it without risking it being at the expense of their own dog's safety and that's exactly what a lot of people who are conscientious about the problems that can and do occur at off-lead parks do - they don't go. Even though they too are entitled to their share of the park and peaceable enjoyment of it.

[mrs tornsocks]

By law, you are supposed to have effective control over your dog at all times, and that means off-lead as well (regardless of whether it's an off-lead park). So why not call your dog back to you and check with people if it's ok for your dog to meet theirs?

If the answer is that you don't have the ability to be able to call Archie back once he's on a mission to meet other dogs, then that tells you one area of weakness in your training of him that needs some work .

It's not about whose interpretation of whether which dog or either was going to aggress or not, is right or wrong. It's about whether you can demonstrate that you have control of your dog and then whether you exercise that control, or not. Regardless of Archie's intentions, how do you know that any of the dogs and/or people he approaches are going to think kindly of it without checking first?

Er, yes, your honour I plead guilty and weak in that area. :p Working on it though ! I'm sure you'll appreciate, 1yo male lab is a handful but he's getting alot better. If he ignores my call to his name when he's 'bounding' towards other dogs, second move is an 'uh-uh' and he generally stops and sits down, albeit still focussed entirely on doggie ahead though. I can usuallly reach him before he takes off again, so while he hasn't come right back to me, at least he's thought about it.

Mentioned in the earlier thread I made mistake of not recalling him straight away when he started to bound to this particular white fluffy.

Edited May 6, 2010 by mrs tornsocks

[W Sibs]

I have small breed dogs. Honestly, I would be weary if a bouncy dog comes over to greet either one of my dogs, especially Charlie. Awesome that if the dog is friendly, but it's not going to stop them from jumping or bumping them.. it can knock them over and stuff.

More than once, I've had to stand in front of the running, bouncy dog to stop the dog from coming into Charlie too fast. It's not till the dog is calm enough that I allow them to say hello. The owners always says that their dog is good with other dogs and won't hurt Charlie... but I don't know that and i'm not going to take a strangers word for it.

Most of the time we take Charlie to the dog park to simply walk. He can watch other dogs play and say hello to some, but not necessary play. We just walk, sit and watch. Charlie likes being outside, he likes other dogs and people.

[frufru]

I wouldn't be happy for your boisterous dog to approach mine in that manner - (I have one that weighs 30kg and a 7kg) if mine were leashed.

[GoldenGirl85]

Ive been in that situation with my little dog, but rather than pick her up Id grab the other dogs collar and hold them back if they were playing, or try and distract the dog from Tess

[mrs tornsocks]

I wouldn't be happy for your boisterous dog to approach mine in that manner - (I have one that weighs 30kg and a 7kg) if mine were leashed.

neither dog was leashed, although as mentioned, I can see a little owner's perspective.

[moko81]

Just got back from a walk in the off-leash park. It's normally rather chaotic but I have never seen any aggro outside a few growls and warnings.

My boy is a 1yo lab, so quite big (not quite fully grown) and bouncy but well behaved generally. He bounces up to everyone (dogs) and crouches wagging tail like mad until they sniff him. The reaction can then be anything to more sniffs to immediate play fighting depending on other dogs' reactions. He has been 'warned' plenty of times by dogs big and small and backs off every time.

Couple walking their small white, maybe maltese (not tiny weeny, although small). Archie bounded up, and he does bound, so 30kgs is quite a sight to people who don't know him. The woman immediately picked up the swf (that was growling and barking at Archie), while I was constantly reassuring both wife and hubby that Archie would absolutely not hurt him at all, he's completely harmless. Archie also responds well to 'gentle' when he's playing with smaller dogs and once he reaches them, will definitely slow down / back off. Husband said very roughly "he is going for our dog", I replied "no I promise you he's not, he is totally friendly" .... and he made some other rude comment about how Archie was stressing everyone in the dog park despite there being plenty of dogs his size and bigger romping around. Arch tried to play with a few other little ones and was fine, owners reactions ranged from smiling to one who called their dog away and Archie moved on.

Should I really put him on leash in these circumstances, given owners are all so different ?

I was really tempted to say to this bloke "the only person that's stressing is you and you're passing that straight on to your dog, especially by lifting him up". But I can obviously understand his concern for his dog's wellbeing and uncertainty about a big bouncy boy.

I've grown up with & owned dogs since I was a little girl, but must admit if a another dog comes running at me (whether it be in a playful mood) while walking my dogs I freak out.

I used to walk our SBT (deceased) in a park out the back of our old place, I used to walk the perimeter & if I seen other dogs would either turn the other way & try to avoid as much as possible. This one day, I was walking our SBT & this guy was playing with his dog (mutt) in the middle of the oval, well this dog spotted us all the way over the otherside of the park come bounding at us full on & went my boy.

I freaked, was screaming at the guy who walked not ran over to us, swinging his dogs lead in his hands, saying he's a puppy he's only playing, all the while his dog is chomping my boys leg.

Pissed me off big time hubby ended up doing a drive by :D round the streets & came across the guy & his dog. Guys dog got put down & he had to pay our vet bills for our boy.

Although that was my one bad experience, I never have my dogs off leash wen walking regardless on whether it's in an off leash park, as dogs are so unpredictable & I don't want my bad experience to happen to others at the hands of one of my dogs.

[juice]

i learned the hard way years ago( before dol ), when a guy kicked my dally in the side that bounded upto his shnauzer :D

just because i know he is friendly, doesn't mean everyone else knows that.

now none of mine are allowed to approach anyone they havn't already met offlead, unless the other owner asks.

[jacqui835]

I have a doberman a bit older than your boy, and he too loves to play with everyone. He is huge though, over 40kg, and although I'm a regular at the dog park (we go about 5 times a week), every now and then a new owner of a small dog shows up, and they freak out at the sight of him and all the other large dogs. He has never gone too far, left a mark on anything or even made a dog whine but very few owners meeting us for the first time will believe that. I train him every day, and in these instances, I can tell him to leave it, and he will and we just move on to another section of the park. What I struggle to control though (because I know if I address the dog the way I would if my dog was the one carrying on that way the owner/s will be angry at me) is the other smaller dog who is often very keen to play with him. This is the only time I put him on a lead, so that there can be no doubt about who the instigator is.

It has been my experience that the people with the biggest issues are the ones who don't really know what a dog is, and certainly don't understand that they are in possession of one. For the most part, small dogs have no difficulty defending themselves and controlling the larger dogs around them. Our park is run by a chihuahua and a little yorkie looking thing...

About a week ago, there was a maltese terrorising everything at the park, it would aggressively chase huge dogs until they rolled over, and then stand there barking over them constantly until distracted by another dog. The people who did try to stand up for their dogs got horrible looks from the maltese owner so seems to me there's a bit of a double standard operating.

You know your dog, if you know he would never hurt another dog and you have decent control over him, I see no reason for you to have to put him on a lead. I would just move away from the dogs with owners that don't want their dogs to play with large dogs and ignore them. My dog has heaps of friends down at the park with whom he loves to play, and I wouldn't deny him the experience simply to entertain someones' irrationalities.

Edit: There is one huge xbreed thing at the park that charges up to all dogs, big and small alike and actually bowls them over. This I find to be completely unacceptable and when the owner failed to discipline his dog for knocking mine over, I had to step in to ensure my dog knew he could rely on me to defend him and didn't have to take matters into his own hands. All I did was tell the dog no, and confronted him until he sat down in front of me, and the owner was actually both very apologetic and grateful. He said he wished all the owners did that, but I told him that's a bit unreasonable and dangerous and that if he's going to have his dog off-leash, it needs to come from him. The dog doesn't come near us anymore. But if your dog is stopping at a respectful distance before reaching the other dogs, that's very different. If you think he's coming a bit too close, I would keep him on a lead for a while and instruct him on how he has to introduce himself to other dogs. Consistency and patience are your best friends.

Edited May 6, 2010 by jacqui835

[mrs tornsocks]

The woman immediately picked up the swf (that was growling and barking at Archie),

There are a million and one threads here about people going to off-leash parks and other dogs running up into their dogs faces while the owner says "Oh but he's friendly". Those threads never end well, regardless of the dog's intentions.

I'm interested in this, and taking it ever so slightly off thread, does anyone here believe there is no way in the world their dog would not attack (ie provoke an attack) another dog ? I am pretty sure most of us feel like we know our dogs well enough to say that it would simply never happen to us. Put it this way, there aren't too many threads on DOL of dog owners who come in to tell stories of their dog ripping apart another. That said, we'd kinda like to assume that people who let their aggressive dogs off lead with awful outcomes, never thought their dog would attack either.

So, given our dogs are animals, do you feel that you could 100% guarantee your dog would never provoke an attack on another in 'everyday' circumstances (ie no injury, bitch on heat, bitch defending pups, whatever) ? Or perhaps it's not that simple.