Homemade Dog Food Vs Kibble?

[Juno's Mummy]

Hi there, new to the forum - I've already found it very useful!

I'm looking for a bit of advice in regards to food. We are currently feeding off of a home made recipe given to me from a friend who's labrador has been praised by vet's for her health - attribtued to her home made diet. However yummy this recipe is it doesn't seem to be doing wonders for our little pug x jack's weight and skin issues. I do notice when we put her back on kibble - no matter how high quality - she drinks enormous amounts of water, her poos are smellier and larger and she passes gas to clear a room! Also, with her current diet no matter how much we control portions as well and limit treats she still seems to be on the chubbier side - a fact I'm sure is attributed to her breed - however with her short little legs I don't want her to gain anymore weight.

Does anyone have a home made recipe or a kibble recommendation that will aid in weight control (and loss for the moment) as well as help with her ongoing issues with itchy skin and allergic reactions to the environment? Alot to ask but hopefully someone can help!

[poodlefan]

Hi there, new to the forum - I've already found it very useful!

I'm looking for a bit of advice in regards to food. We are currently feeding off of a home made recipe given to me from a friend who's labrador has been praised by vet's for her health - attribtued to her home made diet. However yummy this recipe is it doesn't seem to be doing wonders for our little pug x jack's weight and skin issues. I do notice when we put her back on kibble - no matter how high quality - she drinks enormous amounts of water, her poos are smellier and larger and she passes gas to clear a room! Also, with her current diet no matter how much we control portions as well and limit treats she still seems to be on the chubbier side - a fact I'm sure is attributed to her breed - however with her short little legs I don't want her to gain anymore weight.

Does anyone have a home made recipe or a kibble recommendation that will aid in weight control (and loss for the moment) as well as help with her ongoing issues with itchy skin and allergic reactions to the environment? Alot to ask but hopefully someone can help!

You could simply feed her less.

[Jaxx'sBuddy]

you could search this forum for raw or barf diets which are raw food diets and some dogs with allergies have done very well on them.

you also may need to think about feeding your dog less as pugs do not need to be fat. there was a topic on this not so long ago

[puggy_puggy]

Sorry but I am so sick of people blaming their dogs breed for being fat when it is the owners fault they overweight. Pugs are not fat pigs! It's people that make pugs into fat pigs!

We just had a pair of pugs go to their new home today. Both came in obese weighing 10.2kg and 10.4kg each. They now both weigh under 7kg.

How much and what exaclty are you feeding? My guess is that your pug x should be getting about 100grams of raw food a day. My other guess is that she is probably getting double or triple that amount of food per day right now.

[~Anne~]

Feed less overall and feed more veges. There are numerous kibbles around that are lower in fat than normal also, depending on your budget.

Have you ever done any allergy testing to determine her allergies? It could be related to the food you are feeding, in which case, her diet would need to be reviewed for more than just weight issues.

Every dog is different and there is o one diet that will suit them all. The diet that your friend's dog is on obviously suits him, but it may not suit your little one.

Edited May 5, 2010 by ~Anne~

[Juno's Mummy]

Sorry but I am so sick of people blaming their dogs breed for being fat when it is the owners fault they overweight. Pugs are not fat pigs! It's people that make pugs into fat pigs!

We just had a pair of pugs go to their new home today. Both came in obese weighing 10.2kg and 10.4kg each. They now both weigh under 7kg.

How much and what exaclty are you feeding? My guess is that your pug x should be getting about 100grams of raw food a day. My other guess is that she is probably getting double or triple that amount of food per day right now.

I resent your comment that I am making my dog fat, quite frankly I'm a little offended that you assumed I "blamed" her. Of course I agree that it is no one's fault but ours for potentially feeding her incorrectly - hence why I began this post looking for some advice.

That being said, it was our vet himself who advised that keeping her weight down will always be a problem due to her breed, not my own opinion. I'm simply looking for some advice!

Currently we feed her a home recipe including mince, veggies and rice or pasta that was given to me by a friend who's vet recommended it. We add Dr. Bruce's all natural health booster to it and supplement with raw bones about once a fortnight for her teeth. she gets 1/3cup in the morning and 1/3 cup in the evening and wolfs it down in less than 30 secs! she is currently 10.9kg and believe she should probably be around 9, as she is actually a little bigger than a pure bred pug and back when she was 9kg our vet said that she was at a great weight.

[Jaxx'sBuddy]

Sorry but I am so sick of people blaming their dogs breed for being fat when it is the owners fault they overweight. Pugs are not fat pigs! It's people that make pugs into fat pigs!

We just had a pair of pugs go to their new home today. Both came in obese weighing 10.2kg and 10.4kg each. They now both weigh under 7kg.

How much and what exaclty are you feeding? My guess is that your pug x should be getting about 100grams of raw food a day. My other guess is that she is probably getting double or triple that amount of food per day right now.

I resent your comment that I am making my dog fat, quite frankly I'm a little offended that you assumed I "blamed" her. Of course I agree that it is no one's fault but ours for potentially feeding her incorrectly - hence why I began this post looking for some advice.

That being said, it was our vet himself who advised that keeping her weight down will always be a problem due to her breed, not my own opinion. I'm simply looking for some advice!

Currently we feed her a home recipe including mince, veggies and rice or pasta that was given to me by a friend who's vet recommended it. We add Dr. Bruce's all natural health booster to it and supplement with raw bones about once a fortnight for her teeth. she gets 1/3cup in the morning and 1/3 cup in the evening and wolfs it down in less than 30 secs! she is currently 10.9kg and believe she should probably be around 9, as she is actually a little bigger than a pure bred pug and back when she was 9kg our vet said that she was at a great weight.

often vets dont understand that some dogs dont need to be overweight. your vet just hasnt seen a lean fit pug so you might have to educate him.

if you reduce the amount of food and your dog still seems hungry then you could bulk up the food with pumpkin or green beans as they dog doesnt process them and therfore it doesnt put weight on the dog.

[~Anne~]

[i resent your comment that I am making my dog fat, quite frankly I'm a little offended that you assumed I "blamed" her. Of course I agree that it is no one's fault but ours for potentially feeding her incorrectly - hence why I began this post looking for some advice.

That being said, it was our vet himself who advised that keeping her weight down will always be a problem due to her breed, not my own opinion. I'm simply looking for some advice!

Currently we feed her a home recipe including mince, veggies and rice or pasta that was given to me by a friend who's vet recommended it. We add Dr. Bruce's all natural health booster to it and supplement with raw bones about once a fortnight for her teeth. she gets 1/3cup in the morning and 1/3 cup in the evening and wolfs it down in less than 30 secs! she is currently 10.9kg and believe she should probably be around 9, as she is actually a little bigger than a pure bred pug and back when she was 9kg our vet said that she was at a great weight.

She sure sounds like she has loads of Pug in her.

Whilst there is no physiological reason for a Pug to be naturally fat, they are bred for a square and squat body and they do have very good apetites, and this is why so many Pugs are fat.

Their need to eat is amazing really. Last year, my lot climbed up on a shelf to get at, of all things, chewable worming tablets! Between three of them they soffed about 8 tablets! Now that is how desperate they are to eat.

Only last week, my little girl managed to get into a bag of kibble. I came home to one normally slim Pug who looked like she was about the whelp.

Anyway, the diet sounds fine. I would simply decrease the portions you are feeding and increase the vege to meat ratio.

[Staranais]

Sorry but I am so sick of people blaming their dogs breed for being fat when it is the owners fault they overweight. Pugs are not fat pigs! It's people that make pugs into fat pigs!

We just had a pair of pugs go to their new home today. Both came in obese weighing 10.2kg and 10.4kg each. They now both weigh under 7kg.

How much and what exaclty are you feeding? My guess is that your pug x should be getting about 100grams of raw food a day. My other guess is that she is probably getting double or triple that amount of food per day right now.

I resent your comment that I am making my dog fat, quite frankly I'm a little offended that you assumed I "blamed" her. Of course I agree that it is no one's fault but ours for potentially feeding her incorrectly - hence why I began this post looking for some advice.

That being said, it was our vet himself who advised that keeping her weight down will always be a problem due to her breed, not my own opinion. I'm simply looking for some advice!

Currently we feed her a home recipe including mince, veggies and rice or pasta that was given to me by a friend who's vet recommended it. We add Dr. Bruce's all natural health booster to it and supplement with raw bones about once a fortnight for her teeth. she gets 1/3cup in the morning and 1/3 cup in the evening and wolfs it down in less than 30 secs! she is currently 10.9kg and believe she should probably be around 9, as she is actually a little bigger than a pure bred pug and back when she was 9kg our vet said that she was at a great weight.

If she were mine I'd probably give her raw bones at least every few days, not once a fortnight, if there is no calcium source in the diet you're feeding.

[ShesaLikeableBiBear]

What type of mince are you using?. e.g premium beef/regular, there is a difference in the fat content.

Ours are fed a diet of 1/3rd Nutro, which we have fed for many years, to 2/3rds home-made.

Our home made consists of minced chicken frames to which we add pasta, V8 vegetable juice (we buy the Woolies brand), Natural yoghurt, Apple cider vinegar and garlic. We used to add linseed and feed sardines x twice weekly but now they have a daily capsule of salmon oil.

[Dogsfevr]

scrape the rice & pasta.

Pasta in particular can cause skin issues .

Are you feeding beef??

beef also is a well known skin issue creator.

The reality is if the diet is sufficient you dont need to add supplements .

Although if you do try Melrose omega pet flax seed ,a wonderful product for dogs with skin issues.

[Zug Zug]

I haven't had any pugs, but did put my sister's beagle on a weight control plan once with great success.

Keys to success were:

1 - measure her food and stick to the amount she actually needed (no feeling sorry for her - be strong)

2 - regular walks

In a few months she went from resembling an old lactating sow (I kid you not) to looking like a trim sporty beagle who looked 5 years younger.

Do find a food that agrees with your dog's digestive system, but also be strong - feed less and give more (gentle) exercise. It works I promise.

[gundoglover]

You could try feeding her raw meaty bones - about 2% by weight of her ideal body weight. Chicken necks or frames are good as are lamb or veal off-cuts - the important thing is that they a raw & from young or small animals so not too hard to chew & digest. Sardines are good too.

Mostly, skin & digestive problems come from feeding grain products to dogs - not all dogs can digest these well. You can add veges if you want - pumpkin is good for weight loss (filling). Her poos will be firm, not particularly smelly & will turn white & crumbly in a day or so with more raw meaty bones in her diet. Adding oil, especially omega 3 oils also helps with skin problems, but feeding sardines a couple of times a week may be sufficient.

[~Anne~]

Mostly, skin & digestive problems come from feeding grain products to dogs -

Actually, that is not correct. It is a fallacy and one used to support raw and barf feeding.

[gundoglover]

Mostly, skin & digestive problems come from feeding grain products to dogs -

Actually, that is not correct. It is a fallacy and one used to support raw and barf feeding.

Anne, I am always willing to learn. The connection between skin problems & dry food came from my own experiences with dogs over the past 40 years. If you know of studies that show this to be a fallacy, I'd be interested to read them.

[Jed]

I agree with Gundog lover, from experience, but there is quite a bit of information out there which suggests it is so.

Some of my cavs are "itchy" when fed grains, and I have had bald rescue dogs which were previously fed dry food with a high percentage of grain, and grew hair once the grain was removed from the diet.

I would also point out that "grain" in dry dog food is whichever grain is cheapest by the tonne when it is sourced. So it is possible that it will contain wheat and then sorghum and then oats or triticale without any indication on the packaging, and changing grains has been linked to skin and digestive issues.

I too would like to see any studies, as I am always interested in diet issues, in the interest of doing it better.

I'd chuck out the rice and pasta too. Dogs don't need it, and I think pasta does increase weight in dogs. Haven't seen too many fat Chinamen, so I haven't decided about rice!!

Cut the meat back, and increase the veges. He will still feel full. My dog with pancreatitis is inclined to howl and scratch at the door when he feels he hasn't had enough - which is most of the time, as he is overweight (we use him as a coffee table, a cup will sit steady on his back), so I give him a couple of extra carrots, and he's happy.

[~Anne~]

Mostly, skin & digestive problems come from feeding grain products to dogs -

Actually, that is not correct. It is a fallacy and one used to support raw and barf feeding.

Anne, I am always willing to learn. The connection between skin problems & dry food came from my own experiences with dogs over the past 40 years. If you know of studies that show this to be a fallacy, I'd be interested to read them.

The skin problems are normally allergy related when put into association with food. The most common allergens are beef and chicken, not grains. All kibbles contain these ingredients, and are at the very least 'sprayed' with chicken or beef derived flavouring.

Protein sources are what set of the greater majority of allergy related diet/skin conditions.

A bad diet is bad for any dog, but skin issues are not normally related to grains, but to almost any ingredient.

I believe the grain fallacy came about with people pushing raw and natural diets in my personal view. Interestingly, millions of dogs have gorgeous coats and great health and live solely on kibbles and those that do have issues and are properly tested, it is shown that grains are not what is causing their problems. I am sure that there will be dogs who don't do well on kibble, just as there are dogs who don't do well on raw, but to say that 'most' skin and digestive kibbles are caused by grains is wrong and very misleading.

Edited May 9, 2010 by ~Anne~

[Juno's Mummy]

Mostly, skin & digestive problems come from feeding grain products to dogs -

Actually, that is not correct. It is a fallacy and one used to support raw and barf feeding.

Anne, I am always willing to learn. The connection between skin problems & dry food came from my own experiences with dogs over the past 40 years. If you know of studies that show this to be a fallacy, I'd be interested to read them.

I'm not sure her allergies issues are from a food allergy as such - I guess just looking for some food items that will help. she breaks out in hives when we take her to certain parks and definitely right after the cut the grass. So the whole diet change thing is mostly related to her weight loss, with some tips on foods that help control allergies and itchy skin.

She does get heaps of exercise. 2 x 30 min (at least) walks per day, most of which are spent at the dog park running and playing with other dogs or with her ball.

Anyway thanks heaps everyone for your advice. I think what we'll end up doing is trying a different kind of mince, cutting back the carbs and filling with veg and see how we go. We've tried supplementing with sardines before and it softened her stools a bit too much so we try to keep away from that. I'll try mixing it in with her food, I'm also going to try adding some linseed and apple cidar vinegar because I've heard both of those things help heaps too. I'll keep you all posted on how it's going!

As a side note - a really good short term relief therapy we tried the other day, after a major hive flare up (they cut the grass at the dog park!) - we bathed her her cool water and colloidal oatmeal for about 20 minutes and that worked wonders. She was NOT a happy camper about sitting in a tub full of cereal but stopped itching and the hives swelling went down and red paws faded back to pink so I highly recommend that treatment! We've also used the Rufus and Coco "Itch Relief" natural shampoo on her as well which has helped when she's really itchy.

Oh the things we do for our fur babies eh guys?

[~Anne~]

Read away:

http://www.k9web.com/dog-faqs/medical/canine-allergies.html

Food and Flea Bite Allergies

The previous section of this article dealt with atopy or inhalant allergies. This article will deal with food allergies or to be more precise, food sensitivities. Much of the information presented here is drawn from "Hair and Skincoat Problems in the Dog" by Lowell Ackerman D.V.M. and an interview with Dr. Scott Krick of the VCA Sinking Spring Veterinary Hospital. Food allergies account for only about 10% of allergy problems in dogs, however they are easily treated so it makes sense to test for them if you suspect they may be the culprit of your dog's skin problems.

Like inhalant allergies, food sensitivities primarily manifest themselves with itchy skin. Other symptoms include anal itching, shaking of the head, ear inflammations, licking front paws, rubbing faces on carpeting and rarely vomiting, diarrhea, flatulence, sneezing, asthma like symptoms, behavioral changes or seizures. Many people don't suspect food allergies as the cause of their dog's itching because their pet has been fed the same food all its life and has just recently started having symptoms. However, animals can develop allergies to a substance over time, so this fact does not rule out food allergies. Another common misconception is that dogs are only sensitive to poor quality food. If the dog is allergic to an ingredient it doesn't matter whether it is in premium food or the most inexpensive brand on the market. One advantage to premium foods is that some avoid common fillers that are often implicated in allergic reactions.

DIAGNOSIS

Dogs are not allergic to a dog food per se, rather they react to one or more of the ingredients in the food. Some of the most common culprits are beef, pork, chicken, milk, whey, eggs, fish, corn, soy, wheat and preservatives. Many animals are now developing allergies to lamb as well. This was once thought to be very hypo-allergenic, but the more it is used, the more sensitivities are springing up.

The first step in diagnosing a food allergy is to eliminate all possible allergens and feed ONLY a homemade diet with ingredients the dog has never eaten before. The diet should be a protein and a starch. Good examples are one part lamb, rabbit or venison mixed with two parts rice or potatoes. NOTHING else can be fed during this time; no biscuits, chewable heartworm pills, chew toys or any table scraps!! You must also keep the dog away from feces if he or she is prone to eating stool.

This diet should only to be fed for a short period, while testing for allergies. It is not nutritionally complete enough for long term use. Check with your veterinarian before beginning the test. If the symptoms improve during the trial diet, go back to the original food for several days. If symptoms reoccur you know that something in the food is causing the reaction. The next step is to return to the trial diet and add one new ingredient a week (i.e. add beef for one week and if no symptoms occur add corn the next week for one week).

Once you have discovered the allergen you can look for a commercial food which does not contain that ingredient. According to Dr. Ackerman, approximately 80% of dogs with food allergies can be maintained on a commercial hypo-allergenic diet. Some of the common hypoallergenic diets include "Nature's Recipe", "Sensible Choice" and "Natural Life". "Nature's Recipe" makes a lamb and rice food, a venison and rice diet and a vegetarian diet, none contain chemical preservatives. "Natural Life" also makes a preservative free, lamb and rice food called Lamaderm. "Sensible Choice" is a third brand that is considered hypoallergenic because it contains neither wheat or corn and comes in a lamb and rice formulation.

Note: just because a food is labeled "Lamb and Rice" do not assume it is hypoallergenic. Many contain wheat, corn, soy, beef or preservatives. This process of elimination is trying and time consuming. You should be aware that it may take up to 10 weeks to see an improvement. However, it is the best method available to test for food allergies. You may wish to try switching your dog to one of the foods listed above for a month as a trial. If the dog shows improvement you know you are dealing with a food sensitivity, you just won't know which ingredient to avoid. If there is no improvement, you will need to begin the elimination testing.

http://www.dolforums.com.au/index.php?show...p;#entry4520753

DIETARY SENSITIVITY

The term "dietary sensitivity" describes any adverse reaction to food and may be further classified as either food intolerance or true food allergy (hypersensitivity). True dietary hypersensitivity is an immune-mediated phenomenon, whereas food intolerance denotes any other clinically abnormal response to a dietary component. Food intolerance can result from an impaired ability to digest the food or from pharmacologic, metabolic or toxic reactions. In practice, however, a distinction is seldom made between food intolerance and food hypersensitivity because they are often impossible to differentiate on the basis of the observed clinical signs, and management protocols are identical for both.

Most cases of dietary sensitivity manifest as skin or gastrointestinal disorders; a number of cases will present with signs involving both systems (Paterson 1995). Pruritus is the most frequently observed presenting sign, which is accompanied by a gradation of clinical signs associated with self-inflicted trauma. Otitis externa may also be a feature of the condition, sometimes in the absence of other skin lesions, and dietary sensitivity has been implicated as a cause in some cases of feline miliary dermatitis and eosinophilic plaque (Wills and Halliwell 1994). The condition may mimic other allergic dermatoses, such as atopy or flea-allergic dermatitis, and the clinical picture may be further complicated by the presence of these and other factors that contribute to the development of skin disease.

The reported incidence of dietary sensitivity varies considerably but most authors agree that it is a rare cause of skin disease in dogs and cats. It has been estimated that dietary sensitivity accounts for ~1% of all canine and feline dermatoses (Walton 1967), 10% of canine allergic skin disease, excluding flea allergic dermatitis (Scott 1978), 10% of all nonseasonal dermatitis (Baker 1975), 11% of cases of feline miliary dermatitis (Scott 1987) and 10-20% of allergic dermatoses seen by referral dermatologists (Brown et al. 1995).

The true incidence of dietary sensitivity may be difficult to establish due to the inherent problems in reaching a definitive diagnosis. Rechallenge with the original diet is often omitted from the diagnostic protocol because the owner is unwilling to witness a recurrence of clinical signs. Furthermore, skin disease frequently has a multifactorial etiology, and successful management of one aspect of disease may be sufficient to render the animal asymptomatic. Investigation of other possible etiologies may therefore be discontinued at that point.

Specific tests for diagnosing food hypersensitivity using immunologic techniques are available; however, they are unreliable in companion animals. Intradermal testing with food extracts, radioallergosorbent testing (RAST), enzyme-linked immunosorbent assay (ELISA) and gastroscopic food sensitivity testing have all been used. Although they may help to rule out a specific diagnosis, their positive predictive value remains relatively low ( Brown et al. 1995, Wills and Halliwell 1994).

Although it does not identify the underlying mechanism of disease, the most useful and reliable method of diagnosing dietary sensitivity is to feed an elimination diet, based on previous dietary history, followed by dietary challenge with a test meal. Ideally, the elimination diet should contain no ingredients that have previously been consumed by the animal and should be formulated using single sources of protein and carbohydrate. The diet must be nutritionally complete and balanced because prolonged feeding may be necessary; this should be achieved using a minimum number of ancillary ingredients, which may also provoke sensitivity reactions.

Food intolerance may be associated with any dietary ingredient, including additives. Most basic food ingredients have the potential to induce an allergic response, but the majority of dietary hypersensitivity reactions are caused by proteins. The most commonly recognized causes of dietary sensitivity in dogs and cats include beef and dairy proteins, other meat proteins and eggs, lactose and gluten. Elimination diets that have been successfully employed in dogs and cats include lamb, chicken, rabbit, venison and various fish species; these are typically fed with rice or potatoes as a source of carbohydrate. There is no universally "hypoallergenic" diet, however, and the successful inclusion of these ingredients in elimination diets simply reflects the fact that traditionally, they have not been used widely in commercially prepared pet foods.

The elimination diet should be fed for a minimum of 3 wk, although a trial period of up to 60 d may be required for maximum improvement. Failure to respond within this time suggests that either dietary sensitivity is not involved, other factors may be contributing to the clinical disease or the animal is sensitive to the protein in the elimination diet. A small number of animals will react to commercially prepared elimination diets but not to home-prepared diets using the same ingredients and it may be preferable to use a home-prepared diet in the initial diagnostic stages.

A diagnosis of dietary sensitivity is confirmed by challenging with the original diet and demonstrating an exacerbation of clinical signs within 1-14 d. The animal may then be "rescued" with the elimination diet and it may be possible to introduce a commercially prepared diet with the same ingredients at this stage. Individual protein sources may be introduced sequentially and the response monitored in an attempt to identify specific allergens that should be avoided. Once a diagnosis has been established, it is usually possible to manage cases of dietary sensitivity by using commercial diets that have novel, restricted protein sources and are free of lactose and gluten. Alternatively, it may be possible to identify a range of standard products that the animal is able to tolerate.

Edited May 10, 2010 by ~Anne~