Is The Apbt A Lost Cause?

[MolassesLass]

I think it is in this country.

[Zhou Xuanyao]

Not as long as certain individuals keep breeding for fighting, dog aggression and protection of their property (ie: their Hash stash/crop and VB empties collection out the backyard).

Its not about that. Like I keep saying, folks do not seem to get it.

APBT's are probably involved in their fair share of attacks, nothing more nothing less.

BSL did not come in because of APBT attacks, nor has it been added to because of APBT attacks. It all comes back to ignorance in the government, a government that doesn't have the answers, looking for a scape goat to appease the public, and a public which has been brainwashed by the government and the media.

If all Pitbulls disappeared tomorrow, the reports of attacks involving Pitbulls would continue just the same, would not make a scrap of difference.

Re their breeding, a very important issue, but not one which is directly related to BSL in this country.

[sas]

I think it's a lost cause because the breed seems so attractive to those who seem to do nothing more than detroy it's reputation.

I think it's a lost cause because you can't control who the dog ends up.

I think it's a lost cause because people are breeding them from stock that shouldn't be bred from.

I think it's a lost cause because the public have been hammered with the dangerous Pitt Bull story for too long now.

[mita]

When it comes to BSL they are. The focus at this point in time, should be looking out for our ANKC recognised breeds and making sure that they are not added to the list.

It all hinges on the extent to which the evidence about dog bites/attacks can be got into the public mind. That they're grounded in human behaviours, not a dog breed label. We really need to keep plugging away at that re BSL.

But the label 'Pitbull' has taken up space in the public mind as a natural-born killer, however undeserved that label may be.

A very hard position for the APBT to get acceptance in.

Whatever happens there...I agree that a campaign needs to support the ANKC recognised breeds.

Not out of elitism... but because there's standardisation of breeds, a registry for the dogs, & identifiable sources for breeding And most of all from the public view, some sound evidence that dogs from this group tend to go on to have fewer problems with aggression.

The Weekend Australian newspaper carried an article about designer dogs last weekend. In which a dd breeder remarked that rottweilers eat children. There was no rebuttal on this point. So breeds like Rotties are also at risk for' legendary savagery' as an image.

Pity the author of the article didn't visit he Pet Therapy team from Dogs Victoria....dogs which visit the elderly & children. Purebred rottweilers (who still follow their show 'careers'!) are prominent members.

When the leader of this team, who owns Rotties, spoke on Radio National, she gave a brilliant run-down on everything that goes into the 'making' of purebred dogs.....which would explain why any negative breed stereotype did not apply to the Rotties in the team.

So, a yes, from me that the ANKC recognised breeds need support. And far better PR, too.

(About health matters, too. I'm tired of 'info' going to the public that purebreds are 'falling apart' health-wise....when my experience with owning purebreds is the opposite. But this is a different issue.)

[Greytmate]

DOL is for the promotion of ANKC registered pure breeds not unregistered breeds like APBT.

BSL affects everybody . What a ridiculous , ignorant thing to say, yes it may all be starting with an unregistered breed but has started to include registered breeds ( like the AST) .

I have voted no. i don't think they are doomed because i believe that there is enough support even from those who don't have a BSL targeted breeds to fight against BSL .

BSL inherently doesn't affect everybody. It is specific to certain breeds only.

There has been BSL in this country long before the APBT became popular, and it did apply to registered breeds. However the BSL that applied to registered breeds has mostly been altered or overturned due to the work of responsible owners of those breeds over the years.

The APBT community have done too little, too late. The Amstaff community needs to take steps now, but is in a much better position to be able to continue their breed in this country because their breed is officially recognised. I think that being proactive will ensure the safety of the breed, being defensive doesn't work in getting laws changed.

[Zhou Xuanyao]

I dont think the ANKC will put up their argument in defense of the ANKC breeds only, because it wont work, and potentially could make things worse. The government is not going to listen to an argument that states that, for arguments sake, ANKC bred SBT's are different to byb SBT's.

We need to have made alot more progress before the government would listen to something like that. They do not see the difference, they demonstrate that in the registration laws, reporting and identification laws, lack of any laws with respect to breed and pedigree regarding byb's, petshops, puppy farms, ect.

"Too hard basket", that argument is pushing s up hill.

The ANKC needs to continue a similar stance to what they have taken to date, except with a big load voice instead of a whisper.

[Greytmate]

I dont think the ANKC will put up their argument in defense of the ANKC breeds only, because it wont work, and potentially could make things worse. The government is not going to listen to an argument that states that, for arguments sake, ANKC bred SBT's are different to byb SBT's.

We need to have made alot more progress before the government would listen to something like that. They do not see the difference, they demonstrate that in the registration laws, reporting and identification laws, lack of any laws with respect to breed and pedigree regarding byb's, petshops, puppy farms, ect.

"Too hard basket", that argument is pushing s up hill.

The ANKC needs to continue a similar stance to what they have taken to date, except with a big load voice instead of a whisper.

They will if a good argument is presented properly.

[mita]

I dont think the ANKC will put up their argument in defense of the ANKC breeds only, because it wont work, and potentially could make things worse. The government is not going to listen to an argument that states that, for arguments sake, ANKC bred SBT's are different to byb SBT's.

r.

They will if a good argument is presented properly.

Yes. The evidence is there that makes a clear separation....for safety issues at least. Which should be appealing to government sources.

[MolassesLass]

I dont think the ANKC will put up their argument in defense of the ANKC breeds only, because it wont work, and potentially could make things worse. The government is not going to listen to an argument that states that, for arguments sake, ANKC bred SBT's are different to byb SBT's.

We need to have made alot more progress before the government would listen to something like that. They do not see the difference, they demonstrate that in the registration laws, reporting and identification laws, lack of any laws with respect to breed and pedigree regarding byb's, petshops, puppy farms, ect.

"Too hard basket", that argument is pushing s up hill.

The ANKC needs to continue a similar stance to what they have taken to date, except with a big load voice instead of a whisper.

The ANKC doesn't tend to say much at all, it leaves that to the state bodies.

And the Qld body most certainly is putting up the argument to save it's own, along with now having a Government and Agency Liaison Officer to push the pedigree cause.

MEDIA RELEASE - When is a Pit Bull not a Pit Bull?

The Honourable Justice Martin, when considering the evidence presented in the Supreme Court of Queensland yesterday, in the application brought by Ms Kylie Chivers in respect to her dog “Tango” against the Gold Coast City Council, decided that her American Staffordshire Terrier (commonly called an AmStaff) is in fact an American Pit Bull Terrier (APBT).

Pedigreed, registered dogs owned and bred by Dogs Queensland members include AmStaffs and these dogs have many generations of recorded registered pedigree data and are bred specifically for improving type and temperament. These dogs are now far removed from what the community considers to be the typical Pit Bull.

The Australian Government decided to restrict the importation of APBTs in 1956 as many had been bred to work and in some instances (particularly in the United States) that included fighting and it was believed that these dogs would therefore constitute a greater risk to people. This decision has been the subject of much criticism by dog enthusiasts over many years because it is generally believed that breeds should not be banned but the actions by small numbers of aggressive dogs should be penalised. In other words, ban the deed and not the breed.

AmStaffs, whilst originating from a similar genetic background, were developed with an entirely different objective. That objective was to produce a well socialised sound dog suitable to urban living. Our responsible Dogs Queensland member / breeders have worked tirelessly over many years to achieve this objective working at all times within a clearly defined breed standard.

The American Staffordshire Terrier breed is recognised internationally and this unexpected decision seems to be contrary to all of the evidence that Genetic Technologies Ltd (a well respected and highly regarded Human Forensic and Animal Genetics & Diagnostics firm) has collected.

GTG are confident and maintain they can “accurately identify significant numbers of breeds based on breed specific signatures. The American Staffordshire Terrier has shown to have its own unique breed signature”.

This decision has significant and far reaching implications for our responsible AmStaff member breeders and exactly how this decision will affect our members and their internationally recognised breed of pure bred, registered dog is still unclear.

CCC (Q) t/as Dogs Queensland is seeking urgent talks with the relevant State Government Minister(s) to discuss the possible ramifications of this Supreme Court decision.

We are confident that those talks will result in a positive and manageable outcome for our members and their pedigreed registered American Staffordshire Terrier dogs.

ETA: Whoops, sorry RottnBullies, derailing your thread. I'm quiet now.

Edited May 5, 2010 by molasseslass

[Zhou Xuanyao]

Is the evidence there ?

Do councils keep a record of how many dogs within a given breed statistic were ANKC registered ?

[OzPit]

Not Sure.

I think it's a lost cause because the public have been hammered with the dangerous Pitt Bull story for too long now.

A very good point. Attempts at changing public perception aren't working, the general consensus is that they're blood-thirsty killers. Yes, we may be able to change one or two people's opinions but the media isn't going to be swayed so easily. Add to this the moral dilemma APBT owners face when attempting to change perceptions of the breed. One could laud them as the greatest, most unflappable, stable, loving, loyal, SUPER DOGS ever, but that is possibly not the ethical way to go about it. Fact remains, they do have the power and tenacity to inflict incredible damage. To deny this is not in the public's best interest, but to admit it gets the breed nowhere.

DOL is for the promotion of ANKC registered pure breeds not unregistered breeds like APBT.

BSL affects everybody . What a ridiculous , ignorant thing to say, yes it may all be starting with an unregistered breed but has started to include registered breeds ( like the AST) .

I have voted no. i don't think they are doomed because i believe that there is enough support even from those who don't have a BSL targeted breeds to fight against BSL .

BSL inherently doesn't affect everybody. It is specific to certain breeds only.

I read that more as BSL has the potential to affect everybody through the addition of more breeds to the dangerous/restricted lists. But I may be way off!

DOL is for the promotion of ANKC registered pure breeds not unregistered breeds like APBT.

What a useful and constructive comment. I suppose you had the same response every time the topic of white german shepherd dogs / white swiss shepherds came up (before they were recognised)? Besides which, this thread is not necessarily promoting the APBT. In fact a lot of people are agreeing it is a lost cause. I wouldn't call that "promotion" as such.

[APBT]

ANKC or recognised or not they are still a breed of dog and NO one can deny that. They are more than worth fighting for.

[spottychick]

DOL is for the promotion of ANKC registered pure breeds not unregistered breeds like APBT.

Really? I didn't know that? What about all those sections/threads/posts about rescue dogs and pounds and stuff? I'm a bit taken aback by this info.

But in any case, I don't see the point of this comment in regards to the topic of this thread.

I'm not fond of APBTs to be honest - I've had so many bad experiences with them but I've also had bad experiences with kelpies, border collies, blue heelers, German Shepherds even a vicious lunatic springer spaniel once. Unfortunately the bad experiences have been more frequent and more severe with APBTs but every single time the owner has been a nasty piece of work. I always feel sorry for the dog because I can see why it's behaving so badly - it isn't having a nice life. Clearly it's not the breed that's the problem and to me it's stupid to think it is.

So I hope it is not a lost cause for these dogs because I'm positive if they were kept out of the hands of certain people we wouldn't be having this discussion.

[goldchow]

I've voted No as there are many APBTs out in regional and outback areas being used as they are meant to be, working farm and family dogs, their owners refuse to consider having anything else so I can't see the devotees of this breed ever allowing it to die out.

Overseas BSL is increasingly being accepted as unworkable and being repealed in some areas, the Australian government is determined not to learn from other countries mistakes but perhaps in 20 years or so, they might have a rethink on BSL and target the idiot owners instead, who are the real problem, not the breed. While this legislation is in place in my opinion it places all breeds under a cloud whether ANKC or not.

[iltby]

No, I think there's still a lot of hope for them, and I think the public is slowly becoming more educated about them. I think it's an extremely slow process but I don't think BSL will conquer. Dog fighting is slowly decreasing, more places are outlawing it, and there are more and more rescues doing something about rescuing and rehabilitating Pitties - retired fighting ones in particular - which I think shows people how forgiving and human-friendly it is.

I recently went away with our 4 dogs and stayed at a dog-friendly B&B. The woman who ran it was very much a dog lover so we got to talking about BSL and bull breeds over breakfast and I was shocked to hear that she actually knew what BSL was and that she opposed it. She was a big fan of Pitties and she knew what she was talking about. I've found this to be a more and more common occurrence when I strike up conversation with people and that gives me a lot of hope

Edited May 5, 2010 by iltby™

[Abigail]

BSL will be overturned, it is logical progression. It is a pattern we have seen in foreign countries who have been there, done that and dropped BSL.

No it won't.

Not as long as certain individuals keep breeding for fighting, dog aggression and protection of their property (ie: their Hash stash/crop and VB empties collection out the backyard).

APBT owners in certain areas ARE the breeds worst advocates as they are less intelligent than their dogs yet retain the ability to speak and use their opposable thumbs.

Until deadshits stop owning and breeding them.. BSL will live long and prosper.. particularly in certain council areas in Sydney.

DITTO!

[A_Nomad]

I voted no,

I was chatting to the president of our obedience club up here, when they had there pet expo about a month ago, he told me there were 6 owners with there APBT's taking part in the shows put on for the public. Was so good to hear that many people went away with a different view to what they arrived with, which was the crap that the media spouts.

[Cordelia]

Even if laws are repealed (which I genuinely don't believe they will be regarding the APBT), councils will still refuse release from pounds under other legislation regarding dog aggression.

Fact is.. and I'll use Blacktown and Holroyd councils because I live in the area and spent time at the pound every day they were open for approx 6-7yrs... there IS a higher incidence of dog fights, bites and people attacks in these council areas.. fact is.. MANY (as much as people carry on like porkchops about media making breeds up etc) ARE Pitbull/crosses and Staffy x's. You have owners ADMITTING the breeding of their dogs and they generally are PROUD of their animals aggressive and undisciplined behaviour (much like their own behaviours really).

They get the focus of attention because their owners WANT it. They breed for traits that are not condusive to pleasant pets and they are still used in pit rings in areas around Blacktown/Mt Druitt/Riverstone and several other areas well known for it.

Ban the owners I say.. but it won't happen... so the dogs, regardless of laws or legislation, will still be culled by councils as they see fit... the difference is that they will have to blame the common behaviour seen instead of just the breed (which goes hand in hand in the area).

Changing the legislation will save a few good dogs owned by responsible people.. not the majority owned by redneck retards.

[APBT]

i agree justice, I guarantee more then half the population of Australia wouldn't know the difference between an APBT and a cross, or even something that's looks even a little like a bully.

And you cant compare an good bred APBT to the crap you find here in the suburbs, but this crap will keep on being bred unless they make it legal so people don't have to stay underground and can produce GREAT dogs that will then become the image of the APBT.

[Abigail]

i agree justice, I guarantee more then half the population of Australia wouldn't know the difference between an APBT and a cross, or even something that's looks even a little like a bully.

And you cant compare an good bred APBT to the crap you find here in the suburbs, but this crap will keep on being bred unless they make it legal so people don't have to stay underground and can produce GREAT dogs that will then become the image of the APBT.

So, if the APBT would be bred out in the open rather than "underground" how different would it really be? So are you saying that the current APBT is crap? lol. and if so then why are you such a fan of them? I am a little confused here.

Edited May 5, 2010 by Abigail