What Is So Bad About A Halti/gentle Leader

[Erny]

Meant to say : I agree with PF. I'm not comfortable about putting a head-collar on a lunging/leaping pulling type dog, where the handler is so novice to not be able to co-ordinate timing and who doesn't quite have a very good lead handling skills. Nor am I comfortable about a head-collar being used on pups/young dogs.

[huski]

Yes I agree with you there Erny, I certainly know of some dogs who have required something a bit more heavy duty (so to speak) than a martingale.

..... Perhaps "that will deliver a clearer message" is a better impression rather than "heavy duty" ? What one dog feels at one level, another might feel at a different level. Doesn't necessarily mean that the correction is more severe to that dog.

I knew you would have a better description than me ;) perhaps 'communicates more clearly to the dog' would also have been a better phrase?

Agree - I won't allow restraints that rely on plastic clip attachments to hold dogs, in our classes. Seen too many of them give way.

Yep I've experienced myself too which is why I will never use them. It was very scary when the dog grabbed onto Daisy, luckily she was physically ok (I think I was worse off from the fright, lol). The owner makes sure the dog has an appropriate collar on now thank goodness.

ETA: Huski - saw your video clip with you working Daisy in a (was it) a "mock" trial situation? Doing very well and achieving nice focus and excellent command responses. Well done

awww thanks Erny! It must have been one I uploaded from obedience club. Definitely not an actual trial ;) I have to get over my nerves before I am game enough to enter one of those

Edited May 16, 2010 by huski

[Aidan3]

My recommendation for using a head halter is to invest in a "balance leash" which is a leash with a clip at either end. One end is clipped to the head halter, the other the flat collar. That way you only "use" the head halter when you really need to, it is also safer, and much easier to wean onto a flat collar when you are ready. When you are ready, you unclip the head halter but still leave it on the dog for a couple of weeks when you walk.

[corvus]

Am I the only one that has safety concerns over any tool that gives you one point of contact with your dog at the neck or head? I broke one of the D rings on our walking belt one day when jogging with Kivi. Ran alongside a pole and didn't think to tell Kivi to stay close. He was a half step behind me and had been right on my leg, but somehow he went on the other side and we strung ourselves up. I was glad he was on a harness. He looked pretty shaken. I sure was. It happened again a couple of months later. And there were the two times I had to swing my last dog out of the way of a charging dog. She was on a check chain both times and it's the reason why I stopped using them. I dunno if I'm just being paranoid, but that really bothers me. I guess a flat collar or martingale wouldn't be so bad, but it seriously worries me what would happen if a head collar or prong (or check chain, although we've already been there) took the full weight of my dog (plus some?) by accident.

[Erny]

Perhaps this sort of thing is happening to you as much, BECAUSE you are running her on a harness, where maybe it is less likely if your dog were trained to a neck type collar?

Must admit that in all my years, that hasn't happened to me - not whilst running and not so dramatically as to hurt my dog. I trained my boy to understand that he needs to be on the same side of posts/trees etc as myself. Don't know why it hasn't happened to me - maybe I've been sub-consciously aware of the possibility (neck type collar aside - I don't want to go A over T myself!) and am lined up sufficiently where it won't happen . Or maybe I don't run enough .

And the only times (twice in all the years) I've had a dog 'charging', I've been able to notice in time and stepped in, rather than needing to "swing" my dog away. Perhaps I'm not going to the places where you go (or similar) where this is as likely to occur. Don't like the idea of going anywhere where I have to worry about what equipment I've got on my dog 'in case a dog charges at us'.

Edited May 16, 2010 by Erny

[Loves Dogs]

Im interested to know who uses check chains with their dogs and if they have a good out come. I probably have a negative attitude towards them like some people do with the haltis. I would like to understand that way of training because as good as the haltis are, the last person said weaning dogs off them can be hard which is a good point. I just tried checking or "tugging" with a flat lead which didnt help one bit. I am a bit worried about a check chain because I think from the outside looking in it looks harmful but if someone can tell me the right way of checking then I might give it ago because even though my dog tolerates the halti he definatly isnt the happiest in it. I dont walk the whole walk with a halti on either just on the street untill we get to the river and then he is off to run and chase sticks and balls and swim. Im just looking for the best and safest way for my dog and I to learn how to stop the pulling.

I understand your post and like the honesty of it, Staffy lover.

IMHO, I think the PPCollar is actually kinder than a check chain and martingale. So long as you don't live in Victoria, you can use it anywhere else in Australia and for that matter, the world. Above the PPCollar, the E-Collar is kinder still, used on the "low level/negative reinforcement" method. Of all the collars (including an ordinary flat collar) the E-Collar does not have any bearing on the dog's muscular or skeletal system at all and has been proven to be the least stressful to the dog. The latter being said where all things are equal : IE that the training method and handling of one tool to another is sound and appropriately applied.

What you do want is something that is effective. Because, if your dog is pulling (regardless of neck or head-collar restraint) then your dog is applying pressure to its muscle and skeletal structure. Not to mention the part that we don't get to see, and that's the dog's stress levels as a result of restraint. An effective training tool, properly handled, sends a message that helps to make it clearer to your dog as to what not to do and that in itself can open up a whole bunch of other windows to show and reward the dog for behaviours we do want.

I prefer to first teach a dog what TO do before I teach a dog what NOT to do. But sometimes there is so much learnt behaviour that in certain circumstances/environments the dog doesn't exhibit "desired" behaviour, which makes it near impossible to show it what TO do. So sometimes the "NOT" needs to come before the "TO".

I think that made sense?

you are making perfect sense. This thread has been very helpful. Thanks everyone for your words of wisdom. Now to put it all to practise.

[corvus]

Perhaps this sort of thing is happening to you as much, BECAUSE you are running her on a harness, where maybe it is less likely if your dog were trained to a neck type collar?

Why would it be less likely to happen on a collar over a harness? That doesn't make sense. Trust me, after the first time I was pretty motivated to avoid that in future! I do line us up and Kivi has been taught to pass on my side of them. But his head is in the clouds a lot of the time. It seems a very easy thing to happen to me, especially if you have a lazy sod of a dog who trots a half pace behind you where you can't see him so well. Incidentally, I don't run with him anymore because I got tired of towing him up the hills.

I'm not on a "collars are dangerous" crusade, although we all know they come with dangers, but I find it peculiar that I'm apparently the only one that considers accidents? I originally went from collars to Ruff Wear harnesses after someone related a story about walking their dog in the bush and having a cliff edge give way underneath the dog and having to haul it back up by the leash on the harness. Given that has actually happened to me while walking alone it didn't seem like a wildly improbable accident, especially considering we live in an area heavily populated with cliffs. Not to mention poles. ;) Also jetties, boulders, and rock walls. And broken glass and oyster shells. And slippery rocks flanking deep water.

And the only times (twice in all the years) I've had a dog 'charging', I've been able to notice in time and stepped in, rather than needing to "swing" my dog away.

Well, that was lucky! Last year I had a dog charge Kivi from about 50 metres away. It felt quite luxurious. I had a good 5 seconds to get myself organised and "step in". My previous charging experiences had been on the streets where a dog has come out of a yard or something and I had not even had 2 seconds to do something about it.

[Erny]

Why would it be less likely to happen on a collar over a harness? That doesn't make sense.

Does to me, because the dog has more freedom of its front end (ie whole of neck) and head.

.... but I find it peculiar that I'm apparently the only one that considers accidents?

Nah .... I take a lot of precautions into account. But I weigh things up and assess likelihood and level of risk -vs- benefit for what I want and need to do.

I originally went from collars to Ruff Wear harnesses after someone related a story about walking their dog in the bush and having a cliff edge give way underneath the dog and having to haul it back up by the leash on the harness. Given that has actually happened to me while walking alone it didn't seem like a wildly improbable accident, especially considering we live in an area heavily populated with cliffs. Not to mention poles. Also jetties, boulders, and rock walls. And broken glass and oyster shells. And slippery rocks flanking deep water.

..... you don't sound like you're a good (read : safe) person to be around, Corvus. Somewhat accident prone? No cliffs around here and if there is, I'll steer clear .

[corvus]

Oh, I see. So they have less time to build up momentum before the leash goes taut if the leash is attached to the neck rather than farther back near the shoulders? I think part of our problem was the leash being a bit long.

It is true that this kind of thing happens to me a bit. I'm really good at staying on my feet, though! I'm not accident prone, but quiet ambles along the river do tend to turn into exploratory adventures through the bush, which is why I walk the dogs in waterproof trailrunners. Love those shoes. I guess what seems like a not improbable accident to me is a pretty wildly improbable accident to other people.

[bedazzledx2]

Why do you want to check your dog? Better to teach him what you want him to do.

Im interested to know who uses check chains with their dogs and if they have a good out come. I probably have a negative attitude towards them like some people do with the haltis. I would like to understand that way of training because as good as the haltis are, the last person said weaning dogs off them can be hard which is a good point. I just tried checking or "tugging" with a flat lead which didnt help one bit. I am a bit worried about a check chain because I think from the outside looking in it looks harmful but if someone can tell me the right way of checking then I might give it ago because even though my dog tolerates the halti he definatly isnt the happiest in it. I dont walk the whole walk with a halti on either just on the street untill we get to the river and then he is off to run and chase sticks and balls and swim. Im just looking for the best and safest way for my dog and I to learn how to stop the pulling.

[Loves Dogs]

I don't necessarily want to check him it's just that I am trying to find the most effective way to stop his very very strong pulling. He is quite an energetic dog that doesn't respond very well to "asking" him to stop pulling. If checking is going to make him understand that what he is doing is not the behaviour I want I will give it a ago. As I said I never have liked the idea of checking because it seems harsh but with these martingale collars that we have been talking about it seems alot better. I hope you understand. The last time I walked him on a flat collar he hurt my back so I have to do what I need to to stop him. If you have read the thread you would notice I have tried alot of other methods. At the moment I am using a halti which has stopped him but I think he is unhappy in it and I am worried about weaning him off it eventually.

[persephone]

Just reading thru.... another way to get dogs to stop pulling .. walk the dog on the footpath near your house or somehwere ... just walk. Go a few blocks- turn round, walk back .repeat.

No conversation.. no high pitched praise- just walk.

the thing about walking a dog ,who is pulling, then let dog off for a river play etc... is the REWARD of the free-run comes after an anticipatory walk, with pulling and excitement most of the way.

A repetitive walk backwards & forwards a few times takes away this 'reward' factor and the dog just plods.

Do this for a few days, and see if there is a difference. Gradually increase the distance/distractions.....

[Loves Dogs]

Just reading thru.... another way to get dogs to stop pulling .. walk the dog on the footpath near your house or somehwere ... just walk. Go a few blocks- turn round, walk back .repeat.

No conversation.. no high pitched praise- just walk.

the thing about walking a dog ,who is pulling, then let dog off for a river play etc... is the REWARD of the free-run comes after an anticipatory walk, with pulling and excitement most of the way.

A repetitive walk backwards & forwards a few times takes away this 'reward' factor and the dog just plods.

Do this for a few days, and see if there is a difference. Gradually increase the distance/distractions.....

That is so true! I never looked at it like that but that is exactly what it is! Can't beleive I over looked that. Thanks for pointing it out

[corvus]

A repetitive walk backwards & forwards a few times takes away this 'reward' factor and the dog just plods.

Unless the "reward" is merely going forwards... If the problem is just anticipation for something that comes at the end of a walk it's not that big a deal to derail the anticipation by mixing it up a bit so that the dog can't reliably predict. We have had to do it for a few things with Erik and have learnt to be VERY careful about anything approaching routine rewards. Erik is weird, though. He is too smart and seems to have a long window of potential association for lack of a better term. And he's oddly driven about rewards in general. Most dogs I've known aren't that good at making associations between things that happen more than a few minutes apart. And even then they often need stepping stones of predictable cues along the way. They just want to take another step forwards to get to those new smells and so forth. That's why they don't get bored if you just do the same walk around the block every day. It's different every day to them.

[hollee]

I can remember using a "Halti" on my sister's German Shepherd who she had never taught to walk properly on the lead. I only had to use it a couple of times and then I used to have her normal check chain on her and start out on the halti , then I would slip it onto her neck and she would walk perfectly. If she pulled I would say" halti" and put it back on her. It only took a couple of goes and she was walking beautifully. Dogs are not stupid and it went from Alex lungeing on the end of the lead to being a totally sensible dog who was a pleasure to walk . Any "aid" can be bad if used in the wrong way. I found the halti a great help.

[Aidan]

At the moment I am using a halti which has stopped him but I think he is unhappy in it and I am worried about weaning him off it eventually.

Double-ended leash. Problem solved.

[Robbi]

I was starting to have real problems with Abbie my newest Boofa on walks, she was oblivious to the martingale collar and the check collar seemed to make her pull harder, as I walk 2 dogs at the same time I was finding myself being pulled over a couple of times as the Whippet seemed to be being encouraged to bad behaviour as well

I now get up an hour earlier so I can walk them sperately until behaviour improves with the two of them egging each other on BUT more importantly I have bought a front clipping harness for Abbie, the result was almost instant, she walks next to me and listens to my commands. I have a connection that goes from the front of her harness up to her flat collar(for my peace of my mind) as it all seems too simple and I worry about her slipping out of it.

Edited May 18, 2010 by Robbi

[Fiona'n'Theo]

Hello

Way back we used a halti on our beagle to help him keep his nose up from the ground on walks and stop him from pulling and it worked really well. For the ridgeback though the halti really aggravates him and throughout the walks he would scratch at his head or rub against things to try and get it off. I got it originally to help train him and to stop him from pulling but after 6 weeks of this (maybe not long enough?) I'm now trialling a check chain. He still pulls and I feel bad when it tightens when he pulls but for the most part he looks like he's enjoying his walks a lot more.

What's a front attaching harness?

Fiona

[Erny]

I'm now trialling a check chain. He still pulls and I feel bad when it tightens when he pulls ...

Hi Fiona. It shouldn't be about what the training tool 'does', it should be about what you DO with it. I could be jumping to false conclusions here, but taking from merely what you've written, I'm wondering if you are using the check chain properly. Have you had a trainer who is experienced in the proper use of check chains show you how to use it and also what walking technique/s to use to help your dog understand what it is you want?

[corvus]

If you really want to use a check chain or give corrections to teach LLW, just make sure you're consistent and careful about what the dog might also be associating the checks with. Back when I got my first dog I went to obedience classes with her like a good little dog owner and they taught me how to teach a heel with checks. Only thing was, the dog wasn't much of a puller and so I didn't use corrections between heeling practise. About the only thing she learnt from it all was to walk as far away from me as possible because it was only when she walked close to me that she got corrections. Pretty crap when you realise your dog has an aversion to being near you on walks. It took years for that aversion to wear off. Conversely, my current two dogs have been rewarded heavily for walking close to us on leash and as a result often gravitate close to our sides on their own. They have also been heavily rewarded for coming over when they hear their names, so it's easier to deal with distractions.