What Is So Bad About A Halti/gentle Leader

[Erny]

Head collars are more a suppression tool for poor leash behaviour.............they are not a training tool as such. Dogs pull and misbehave on leash from a lack of training process applied by the handler. I prefer a proper training technique employed to teach a dog leash behaviour, not a gadget that works only when worn which is generally the case with head collars and harnesses. A cronic leash puller is generally strong enough to handle a few good corrections on a choker with a loose leash walk achieved in less than 30 minutes in most cases.

They are a training tool (although in my earlier days, I didn't see them that way ..... we live, learn and grow). If they weren't a training tool, then dogs would not learn to not pull, even if it is they only learn not to pull when wearing one.

IMO they are more difficult (read : time consuming; laborious; awkward; less simple) to wean a dog off the wearing of one and back to a neck type collar, simply because it is most noticeable for the dog when a head collar is (finally/eventually) removed as compared with (say) a check chain to a martingale.

Head Collars aren't my most favourite training tool but they do have their place for some and I will not deny the use of one if I feel that for the dog/human combo it is the best for the job. But unlike some orgs/people, I will not omit to point out to people who might potentially use (or who already use) a head collar that it is NOT the "kind, gentle" training tool that (by implication) they might be thought to be.

Edited May 16, 2010 by Erny

[huski]

At my training club all the dogs that start obedience are required to have one and it is included in the registration fee and fitted properly.

I would run from any training club that required me to use a head collar. I can't stand them and will not put them on my dog, especially for obedience, where you can't use one in the ring anyway. My dogs all work on flat collars or martingales (for safety with my Sibe - he can work on a flat collar if I need him to) and all the obedience training I do is done off leash or on leash with a flat collar.

What about people who join your club who don't require a head collar? i.e. their dog already walks on a loose leash.

[Loves Dogs]

Im interested to know who uses check chains with their dogs and if they have a good out come. I probably have a negative attitude towards them like some people do with the haltis. I would like to understand that way of training because as good as the haltis are, the last person said weaning dogs off them can be hard which is a good point. I just tried checking or "tugging" with a flat lead which didnt help one bit. I am a bit worried about a check chain because I think from the outside looking in it looks harmful but if someone can tell me the right way of checking then I might give it ago because even though my dog tolerates the halti he definatly isnt the happiest in it. I dont walk the whole walk with a halti on either just on the street untill we get to the river and then he is off to run and chase sticks and balls and swim. Im just looking for the best and safest way for my dog and I to learn how to stop the pulling.

[huski]

Staffy lover, I taught both my dogs to walk on a loose leash with a well fitted martingale. IMO it is less about the tool as it is about the method you use.

[Loves Dogs]

At my training club all the dogs that start obedience are required to have one and it is included in the registration fee and fitted properly.

I would run from any training club that required me to use a head collar. I can't stand them and will not put them on my dog, especially for obedience, where you can't use one in the ring anyway. My dogs all work on flat collars or martingales (for safety with my Sibe - he can work on a flat collar if I need him to) and all the obedience training I do is done off leash or on leash with a flat collar.

What about people who join your club who don't require a head collar? i.e. their dog already walks on a loose leash.

Hi there huski. At the club usually the people joining with there dogs are youngsters (from 6 months) and I dont think the dogs that walk on loose leads have to wear them, not sure though. I actually started years ago and went through the obedience with my elder dog and now do agility with her but have just started putting my pup through. I have never had a problem with the elder one pulling but Austin (my pup) just doesnt get the picture. He is ok (but not the best) walking by him self but when Im out walking both of them are always with me. I couldnt bear to take one without the other. How do you train for loose lead walking? And what are martingales? Are they the flat collars with a chain for tightening? I am up for anything that will stop him pulling. As I said before in this thread or another one people always ask if he is aggressive with it on because it looks like a muzzle to some people. I would love to try another way. Im just not educated in any other way.

Edited May 16, 2010 by staffy lover

[corvus]

I think everyone knows you can't stand head collars, huski.

I don't think I'd want to be locked in to using any training tool short of a leash. Different clubs have their beliefs, though. I think it's safe to say I wouldn't sign up to any club that had a blanket policy about a training tool, although I did sign up to a club that required me to have a tug toy, so maybe that's an exception to the rule. That said, staffy lover said nothing about whether the head collar had to be used or for how long. I think most things are voluntary, even if they are strongly recommended.

[huski]

SL a martingale is a flat collar with a bit of chain - it looks like this;

I find them way better than check chains as you can fit them properly to sit at the top of the dog's neck.

I taught loose leash walking by working with my trainer here in Brissy, we used the change of direction technique and she had my Sibe walking on a loose leash for me in one session - he'd been pulling on the leash for four years! Of course that's different again from how I teach formal heelwork.

[Loves Dogs]

I forgot to mention when my elder dog went through obedience they didnt use head collars. She is a much more placid and "I will do anything for you" dog

[Loves Dogs]

Thanks huski I will give it ago. So when walking on a martingale you change directions everytime the dog pulls right? Do you check with the martingale as you turn aswell? he is ok when working (training) its just when we are on our daily walk. I might have to walk them seperatly untill he gets the hang of it.

Edited May 16, 2010 by staffy lover

[huski]

:D I think everyone knows you can't stand head collars, huski.

Yes I would think so considering that I just said I don't like them.

Oh wait - you were being sarcastic, right? Nice work Corvus, that really adds something to the discussion

I don't think I'd want to be locked in to using any training tool short of a leash. Different clubs have their beliefs, though. I think it's safe to say I wouldn't sign up to any club that had a blanket policy about a training tool, although I did sign up to a club that required me to have a tug toy, so maybe that's an exception to the rule. That said, staffy lover said nothing about whether the head collar had to be used or for how long. I think most things are voluntary, even if they are strongly recommended.

I wouldn't use any club that required me to use a tool like a head collar, check chain etc. I can understand clubs or trainers who want to ensure you are using good quality, strong equipment though. SL also said that the head collar is included in the registration price which is what struck me as odd. I wouldn't want to pay for a tool I would never use.

[huski]

Thanks huski I will give it ago. So when walking on a martingale you change directions everytime the dog pulls right? Do you check with the martingale as you turn aswell? he is ok when working (training) its just when we are on our daily walk. I might have to walk them seperatly untill he gets the hang of it.

Whereabouts are you located, SL? It might be worthwhile meeting a trainer for a one on one session so they can show you exactly how the method works best for your dog.

[Loves Dogs]

Im on the south coast of NSW I will have a look around for one. If yours got you walking loose lead in one session it is definatly worth ago. I just have to find the right one I suppose. Shame Im not up your way.

[Erny]

At my training club all the dogs that start obedience are required to have one and it is included in the registration fee and fitted properly.

I would run from any training club that required me to use a head collar.

I agree, Huski, although I'll expand on that. I don't agree with any training club that "requires" people to use any one particular training tool. In a class format, unless it is designed to train for/with head-collars in particular, I don't think it's a great idea to let people choose to use a head-collar though as the style of lead handling differs to that from how we use other neck style training tools. But they can be integrated into a class format if they've had a bit of one-on-one tuition outside of class with the opportunity of explaining to them that you don't "check" the leash using a head-collar (and with some explanation on what you do do with the lead using a head-collar).

Disclaimer : BUT, if I see a dog in a training tool that is NOT suitable for either it and/or the handler, then I will talk to the owners and suggest another. If the owner/handler doesn't agree, instead insisting they use what they have AND if as a consequence they are unable to safely restrain their dog, then they aren't suitable for a class format anyway.

Edited May 16, 2010 by Erny

[Erny]

I find them [martingales] way better than check chains as you can fit them properly to sit at the top of the dog's neck.

I prefer them to a check chain as well, although for some dogs, a martingale is not enough/suitable/sufficient.

Edited May 16, 2010 by Erny

[huski]

I find them [martingales] way better than check chains as you can fit them properly to sit at the top of the dog's neck.

I prefer them to a check chain as well, although for some dogs, a martingale is not enough/suitable/sufficient.

Yes I agree with you there Erny, I certainly know of some dogs who have required something a bit more heavy duty (so to speak) than a martingale.

ETA: I had a problem a few weeks ago at obedience club when a new handler turned up to the grounds with their very strong dog on a dodgy flat collar (it was one of those nylon clasp ones). It lunged on the leash, broke free of the collar, and attacked Daisy hence why I like to see people using good quality equipment on their dogs (leashes, collars etc).

Edited May 16, 2010 by huski

[Loves Dogs]

Those martingale collars look a lot friendlier and comfortable for the dog so Im happy. That has solved my problem of the harmful image of check chains.

[Erny]

Im interested to know who uses check chains with their dogs and if they have a good out come. I probably have a negative attitude towards them like some people do with the haltis. I would like to understand that way of training because as good as the haltis are, the last person said weaning dogs off them can be hard which is a good point. I just tried checking or "tugging" with a flat lead which didnt help one bit. I am a bit worried about a check chain because I think from the outside looking in it looks harmful but if someone can tell me the right way of checking then I might give it ago because even though my dog tolerates the halti he definatly isnt the happiest in it. I dont walk the whole walk with a halti on either just on the street untill we get to the river and then he is off to run and chase sticks and balls and swim. Im just looking for the best and safest way for my dog and I to learn how to stop the pulling.

I understand your post and like the honesty of it, Staffy lover.

IMHO, I think the PPCollar is actually kinder than a check chain and martingale. So long as you don't live in Victoria, you can use it anywhere else in Australia and for that matter, the world. Above the PPCollar, the E-Collar is kinder still, used on the "low level/negative reinforcement" method. Of all the collars (including an ordinary flat collar) the E-Collar does not have any bearing on the dog's muscular or skeletal system at all and has been proven to be the least stressful to the dog. The latter being said where all things are equal : IE that the training method and handling of one tool to another is sound and appropriately applied.

What you do want is something that is effective. Because, if your dog is pulling (regardless of neck or head-collar restraint) then your dog is applying pressure to its muscle and skeletal structure. Not to mention the part that we don't get to see, and that's the dog's stress levels as a result of restraint. An effective training tool, properly handled, sends a message that helps to make it clearer to your dog as to what not to do and that in itself can open up a whole bunch of other windows to show and reward the dog for behaviours we do want.

I prefer to first teach a dog what TO do before I teach a dog what NOT to do. But sometimes there is so much learnt behaviour that in certain circumstances/environments the dog doesn't exhibit "desired" behaviour, which makes it near impossible to show it what TO do. So sometimes the "NOT" needs to come before the "TO".

I think that made sense?

[Jaxx'sBuddy]

hmm, its a bit hard to put a head collar on a brachy breed so i think it also depends on the head structure of the dog as well

[Erny]

So when walking on a martingale you change directions everytime the dog pulls right? Do you check with the martingale as you turn aswell?

Sorry, question directed to Huski and I'm butting in here - hope you don't mind, Huski?

No - turn and then, if your dog has not volunteered to turn as well, check. Give the dog a chance to 'win'.

There are other techniques as well, although I find it much easier to teach them with demonstration as well as explanation rather than by written word alone.

I might have to walk them seperatly untill he gets the hang of it.

Yes, you should. It is not good to try to train two dogs at once. Train one. Train the other. THEN train them that what they've both learnt individually also applies to when they are together.

Otherwise it is too hard on you and unfair due to lack of clarity, on the dogs.

Edited May 16, 2010 by Erny

[Erny]

Yes I agree with you there Erny, I certainly know of some dogs who have required something a bit more heavy duty (so to speak) than a martingale.

..... Perhaps "that will deliver a clearer message" is a better impression rather than "heavy duty" ? What one dog feels at one level, another might feel at a different level. Doesn't necessarily mean that the correction is more severe to that dog.

ETA: I had a problem a few weeks ago at obedience club when a new handler turned up to the grounds with their very strong dog on a dodgy flat collar (it was one of those nylon clasp ones). It lunged on the leash, broke free of the collar, and attacked Daisy :D hence why I like to see people using good quality equipment on their dogs (leashes, collars etc).

Agree - I won't allow restraints that rely on plastic clip attachments to hold dogs, in our classes. Seen too many of them give way.

ETA: :D Huski - saw your video clip with you working Daisy in a (was it) a "mock" trial situation? Doing very well and achieving nice focus and excellent command responses. Well done

Edited May 16, 2010 by Erny