100% Recall

[Erny]

I'd still be interested to know WHAT methods have been tried and tested by any person who claims a 100% recall can't be achieved for those breeds.

The problem is not the methods tho'.

People working computer helpdesks have the expression PICNIC - Problem in Chair Not In Computer. I don't know if there is a similar expression for dog training but often people on breed lists saying "DON'T!" aren't saying that because they believe it's impossible. They're saying it because they believe tha in most cases it is highly unlikely that your average person can stick with what is required. Especially if that person is a newbie asking a question. Experienced people won't ask because they already know the answer for them.

Yeah - I get your point, SSM. Although it comes down to it that 100% (for the purposes of our reference to it) recall IS possible, although it means people need to work a bit beyond and outside the square they are used to.

ETA: Thinking on this a bit further, if people don't mention that it's possible just because the person/s is a novice handler, how can that person know to even want to try, even under supervision of a trainer who can help them achieve what they're after?

Edited May 8, 2010 by Erny

[jesomil]

Excellent posts Erny!! You always explain your opinions with such clarity.

I agree with everything you are saying and you have such a better way of saying things than I.

[jesomil]

Jesomil I find that comment rather rude. And the sort of comment that to be honest is really putting me off any sort of comment in this forum. I just don't think that sort of 'pissing contest' is needed or helpful. You say it is not about attacking but with that one line you have basically put down the majority of people on this thread.

Pissing contest? My posts couldnt be further from that! I am trying to have a pleasant discussion on recalls but my opinions are being seen as lack of humility.

I have no issues with people keeping their dogs on leads for life. It is not a competition!! Its just that I choose not to.

My comment was neither rude or in any way putting down people on this thread. This forum attracts a different type of dog owner than some other forums. Doesnt mean anyone is better than anyone else, it means they keep dogs for different purposes and have differing expectations.

No defensiveness needed, we all love our dogs and can do what we want with them.

[corvus]

But once they learnt about the stim cue and what I expected, all of a sudden they seemed to bloom.

You know, I've heard of people using e-collars on shy dogs precisely because they were soft dogs. There was an interesting discussion about it. It was suggested that taking the handler component out of training relieved a whole lot of accidental social pressure. Specifically for working breeds, not just any soft dog.

[jesomil]

QUOTE (jesomil @ 8th May 2010 - 04:26 PM)

QUOTE

Interesting thread, although it's easy to pick the people who have hands-on sighthound experience from those who don't.

How?

Often, a certain lack of humility when it comes to recall training

Have you trained any of the independent aboriginal breeds? Saluki, Basenji, Afghans etc?

If so, have you trained all of them to 100 per cent recall under all circumstances?

I am the one who somehow appears to have the lack of humility when it comes to recall training (which couldnt be further from the truth BTW) yet I have "hands on sighthound" experience.

I dont think you have to be dedicated to the breed to have an opinion.

I have trained an afghan (from adulthood) and several greyhounds. The afghan and a grey had 100% recalls in every situation they had been tested in but I wouldnt say 100% in every situation in general as I didnt have the opportunity to test them every situations. At dog parks daily, lurecoursing, race days, beach etc I was able to proof them but didnt have them long enough to do much more.

The Afghan, i trialled in obedience and we were asked to perform obedience and agility at the Afghan nationals. Everyone was blown away, which is sad because these wonderful dogs are alot more capable than what the majority of people think. My dog didnt take her eyes off me and was offlead around many dogs and distractions and was super happy to boot.

I am not big noting myself and I feel a bit silly having to explain all this but I am merely stating facts and it helps to understand where i am coming from.

I am not saying all this through lack of humility. In my experience, I believe 100% recall is possible. My experience is not solely with my own dogs and I am not the be all and end all of dog training but i am merely stating my opinion.

I am not saying everyone has to have a perfect recall. Not everyone aspires to it nor are interested.

I honestly dont see how this is an online pissing contest. Anyway, everyone has a right to their opinion.

[Erny]

Gremlins

Edited May 8, 2010 by Erny

[jesomil]

However, when people try to be realistic about their breed - and let's remember DOL is a pure breed forum that people read and take information from - I don't think it serves any useful purpose to breezily dismiss those people as having "narrow experience".

I was using Diva's words not mine. She is the one who suggested that certain peole with certain opinions were coming from narrow experience.

Diva

If she was the only dog I'd ever had I'd be posting - as so many do with such bemusing certainty - from a very narrow experience.

[Erny]

But once they learnt about the stim cue and what I expected, all of a sudden they seemed to bloom.

You know, I've heard of people using e-collars on shy dogs precisely because they were soft dogs. There was an interesting discussion about it. It was suggested that taking the handler component out of training relieved a whole lot of accidental social pressure. Specifically for working breeds, not just any soft dog.

There may be something in that, Corvus, although I can't really say that the "handler component" was removed, as I was still very much there, initially guiding them to show them what they needed to do and of course to reward them for it. Remember that the super sensitive dog shut down on me before the e-collar, even though I was otherwise doing the same/similar as I did when I intro'd the e-collar to her.

In the initial days, the super sensitive dog couldn't meet my eyes without having a melt down. Once training began to 'click' though, everything changed and I ended up with lovely pricked ears and focus and that eagerness in the body language that suggests there's some enthusiastic anticipation for "what's next?".

ETA: There's a couple of pictures of these dogs on my website under the "Boarding & Training" Tab. They were about 3/4 the way through their training stay at the time of the photos, I think. It was a bit difficult getting the photos of them because I was taking them myself and the super-sensitive girl (Bonnie) had a bit of trouble with the 'big eye of the camera' looking at her. At one point just prior to the photo of her, she was rolling over on her back in full submission. So with the camera in front of her, you won't really get the best idea of how confident she had become through her training.

Edited May 8, 2010 by Erny

[Erny]

Pissing contest? My posts couldnt be further from that! I am trying to have a pleasant discussion on recalls but my opinions are being seen as lack of humility.

I have no issues with people keeping their dogs on leads for life. It is not a competition!! Its just that I choose not to.

For what it is worth, Jesomil, I didn't identify any lack of humility or "pi$$ing" contest, which is why I had to ask if the comment might have been directed at me. I think it is a case of the written word gone pear-shaped and hopefully no-one remains insulted by anyone here for too long, because I think it's been a thread of good balanced conversation.

[jesomil]

Can't speak for Diva but no, not you. Jesomil is the one I have a quarrel with here.

I am quite curious how I have come across lacking humility?? I shall try to work on that from now on.

Oh to be able to say things as well as Erny......

The other thing to consider in this "is it possible" line of thought that we are in, is whether our answers are really based on what we know/have experienced, or on what we've tried (or more particularly, haven't tried).

this xxx breed can't be taught 100% reliable recall" (and this has been said of the Huski, for example) then I think we need to ask ourselves "is that because we're right, or is it only because we haven't used a technique that works for that dog?"

I'd still be interested to know WHAT methods have been tried and tested by any person who claims a 100% recall can't be achieved for those breeds.

Me too.

But those who have never handled sighthounds around prey distractions, and especially the hard core sighthounds, can speak with a confidence that starts to look pretty silly when the Saluki sees the hare. Negative consequences mean little to dogs that will not stop the chase even after ripping their legs open, and that have been known to try to finish the chase with a broken leg.

I agree. Negative consequences would be useless in dogs who are completely focussed and after the prey, thats why you would never do that. The training starts along time before they are let loose with prey.

[jesomil]

For what it is worth, Jesomil, I didn't identify any lack of humility or "pi$$ing" contest, which is why I had to ask if the comment might have been directed at me. I think it is a case of the written word gone pear-shaped and hopefully no-one remains insulted by anyone here for too long, because I think it's been a thread of good balanced conversation.

Thanks Erny. I was a bit worried there. I am not the best with words and getting my point across and I would hate to come across in anyway negative.

Its sad when threads such as these get misinterpreted then all goes haywire and it disappears.

I have seen a few good, knowledgable dog people get chased away from here over the years from stating an opinion and it all getting out of hand. Thats the trouble with only being able to type our thoughts.

[Black Bronson]

The dog IMO needs to learn that there are negatives to misbehaviour.

Yeah, I used to think that. But then I thought I'd try liberating myself from it and seeing what happened.

A lot depends on the dog itself too.

[Diva]

However, when people try to be realistic about their breed - and let's remember DOL is a pure breed forum that people read and take information from - I don't think it serves any useful purpose to breezily dismiss those people as having "narrow experience".

I was using Diva's words not mine. She is the one who suggested that certain peole with certain opinions were coming from narrow experience.

Diva

If she was the only dog I'd ever had I'd be posting - as so many do with such bemusing certainty - from a very narrow experience.

Actually, I didn't say or suggest the bolded bit at all. You seem to have assumed that 'certain opinions' corollary on your own.

The narrow experience can be on all sides of an argument. It was really a general comment on how experience with one dog is often held to be a universal truth by the owner, and can lead to great certainty of opinion. If I'd never had another sighthound after that bitch, I'd have a very different view of their recall under prey distraction. The comment seems to have become a red herring though, with people wanting to think I was directing it personally. Meh, it's still accurate

Edited May 8, 2010 by Diva

[jesomil]

Actually, I didn't say or suggest the bolded bit at all. You seem to have assumed that 'certain opinions' corollary on your own.

The narrow experience can be on all sides of an argument. It was really a general comment on how experience with one dog is often held to be a universal truth by the owner, and can lead to great certainty of opinion. If I'd never had another sighthound after that bitch, I'd have a very different view of their recall under prey distraction.

Sorry, perhaps I became a little defensive after some of the other comments towards me.

I agree with the last paragraph. People certainly do develop their opinions based on their experience only regardless of how limited it is.

[Black Bronson]

But what do the trainers think - can you imprint the basic recall really deeply in a baby puppy, say before 10 weeks? Is that theoretically possible?

I too think it would be. Remember the "pupupupupupup" ? That always works to attract a puppy to you - it's something they know from when the breeder began calling them for their dinner, when they were at the age of eating solids. I think the conditioned response deteriorates over time if it stops being used, but many many dogs I've worked with still give me that indication that they know that sound, even if it is a long distant memory for them.

From the "in the nest" and through early day training and then beyond, if you put your dog in a position where they don't get to fail a recall, then it lands an extraordinarily good foundation as a conditioned response. But it does rely on that consistency over time for it to stick.

ETA : I don't know nor had ever heard of stuff/words such as PICNIC etc. before (other than to suggest a warm soft sunny day on a blanket under the filtering shade of a tree, and food, and wine ). I'm thinking you lot are somewhat younger (like half) than I .

The breeder of our new working line GSD did the hand clap to attract the puppies initially and worked well with our little boy. He's now 11 weeks and using the hand clap, calling his name and reinforcing with a toy, praise and pat, his recall is surprisingly fairly good for a baby already. The hand clap will always raise his attention and get some eye focus which we are working on from there. Having said that, it's far easier to grab the attention of a little prey monster than a puppy of lesser motivation though.

[Black Bronson]

Excellent posts Erny!! You always explain your opinions with such clarity.

I agree with everything you are saying and you have such a better way of saying things than I.

Love Erny's posts and training insights, excellent

[SkySoaringMagpie]

Yeah - I get your point, SSM. Although it comes down to it that 100% (for the purposes of our reference to it) recall IS possible, although it means people need to work a bit beyond and outside the square they are used to.

ETA: Thinking on this a bit further, if people don't mention that it's possible just because the person/s is a novice handler, how can that person know to even want to try, even under supervision of a trainer who can help them achieve what they're after?

When i was a new saluki owner more than one person told me to listen to as much as I can, observe as much as I can and then try for myself and make up my own mind. I guess people still say that, I know I do.

[SkySoaringMagpie]

The Afghan, i trialled in obedience and we were asked to perform obedience and agility at the Afghan nationals. Everyone was blown away, which is sad because these wonderful dogs are alot more capable than what the majority of people think. My dog didnt take her eyes off me and was offlead around many dogs and distractions and was super happy to boot.

I am not big noting myself and I feel a bit silly having to explain all this but I am merely stating facts and it helps to understand where i am coming from.

I am not saying all this through lack of humility. In my experience, I believe 100% recall is possible. My experience is not solely with my own dogs and I am not the be all and end all of dog training but i am merely stating my opinion.

That's excellent! Do you have pix of your Affie working? Or not working - either way. We'd love to see them in the Sighthound thread and I'm sure my OH would love to chat to another Afghan trialler.

I think tho' that a bunch of us have been saying we think it's possible. The point I think we have been trying to make is that 100 per cent is a tricky thing to define and it is a long way up the mountain for most people with the chance of something pretty nasty happening if you over-estimate what you and your dog are capable of.

Re the lack of humility issue, as I have already said the thing that got my back up initially was your comment to MRB about her dog having no recall and calling the shots. I wonder if this is a case of "what is self evident to me, should be so for others as well". It's an easy trap to fall into having fallen into it myself, but a lot of what is second nature to me now wasn't once. Sometimes I look at someone doing something I think is just clearly counterproductive and dumb and have to remind myself that there was a time when I didn't know how to fix whatever the person is trying to fix either. When you know it's simple and obvious, when you don't, it feels impossible.

EFS

Edited May 8, 2010 by SkySoaringMagpie

[corvus]

That is good advice, SSM.

A lot of people think I don't listen. I do, I just have to figure things out for myself sometimes to believe it.

[Erny]

Yeah - I get your point, SSM. Although it comes down to it that 100% (for the purposes of our reference to it) recall IS possible, although it means people need to work a bit beyond and outside the square they are used to.

ETA: Thinking on this a bit further, if people don't mention that it's possible just because the person/s is a novice handler, how can that person know to even want to try, even under supervision of a trainer who can help them achieve what they're after?

When i was a new saluki owner more than one person told me to listen to as much as I can, observe as much as I can and then try for myself and make up my own mind. I guess people still say that, I know I do.

I definitely agree with you here. Although perhaps I misunderstood, because I thought you were saying that for a public forum type situation, it is better to say to some people (especially new owners of the sighthound group, in the case of recalls) that 100% (using our loose definition that we seem to have established here) is not attainable and that dogs such as saluki's etc should be on-lead if not in a fenced area. That's the part I was differing on - because if it is not written (eg) that 100% recall is attainable but you might need to work harder (for the breed you have) and work and think outside the square, how otherwise would people read to be able to make up their minds?

As I mentioned, perhaps I misinterpreted the meaning/essence of your previous post.