100% Recall

[Diva]

No, not particulary you Erny. As I said, I believe it's possible. (Anyway you have a ridgeback don't you, that's sighthound-ish ). If whale can jump through hoops on cue, sighthounds can recall.

But those who have never handled sighthounds around prey distractions, and especially the hard core sighthounds, can speak with a confidence that starts to look pretty silly when the Saluki sees the hare. Negative consequences mean little to dogs that will not stop the chase even after ripping their legs open, and that have been known to try to finish the chase with a broken leg.

I expect that one can teach a very reliable recall to such a dog - but I am even surer you can think you have only to have it fall to pieces one unexpected day with the death of a prey animal or the death of the dog the result.

They were not bred to listen to people in those circumstances - no human direction was needed or offered.

The reason I am so keen to be realistic about this is simple. In the USA, the major cause of death of young Borzoi - purebred, highly valued, well kept dogs - is being hit by a car. Because most people can't teach them a 50% recall in the face of moving distractions, let alone a 100% one.

The likely opinions of other forums have been raised in this thread - I can promise you if I raised this question in a Saluki or Borzoi forum, I'd be told to never to let the dogs off lead in an unfenced area, or expect a dead dog one day. No matter what training mehtod I employed, or how good a trainer I was.

Edited May 8, 2010 by Diva

[SkySoaringMagpie]

To clarify - I agree that some breeds and then some individuals within breeds are more difficult (less biddable) to train than others. But if any of us (including myself) were to say "this xxx breed can't be taught 100% reliable recall" (and this has been said of the Huski, for example) then I think we need to ask ourselves "is that because we're right, or is it only because we haven't used a technique that works for that dog?"

Which leads me to a next question.

Is everyone's interpretation of "100%" also based on (manner of speaking only) .... "every day average" training techniques. My apologies - now THAT does sound lacking in humility, but isn't intended to be.

I think this is certainly true of people within a breed who say, for example, "you can't teach a Husky not to pull on leash because that's what they were bred for". I have seen people rock up to classes with that script already in their head that excuses them from trying at all. The other script that pops up all the time is "they're a rescue, that's why they don't X". It's a sad way of thinking, and that is not what I am recommending. Instead I think if your dog has a predisposition against a certain necessary behaviour you need to really try at it, not give up. And really trying means considering everything.

So, I also think that - as I mentioned upthread - while within breeds you tend to have the breed fatalists (you can't do obedience with an Afghan) you also have those who say "bugger you all, I'll give it a go". In that latter group you get people who try all sorts of things and so we're not talking every day average training techniques.

In fact, when I was approached to train to be an instructor I said "are you kidding me?" My first Saluki girl and I had failed Advanced class 3 times before passing and I had no idea why I'd be considered a good prospect to teach. The person who approached me said "that is exactly the kind of trainer we need, someone who has had to think outside the box to get results because that is what you need when you instruct". Now she knew me and had formed a view that I was capable of thinking outside the box and applying it with success. Online, you can only go on what people say. I know that even talking about the fact I had a dog that I failed a class with is enough for some people to dismiss my POV or say I haven't tried. The fact I am still working with my dogs says otherwise tho' I think.

Edited to fix spelling of Husky

Edited May 8, 2010 by SkySoaringMagpie

[Erny]

Not particulary Erny. As I said, I believe it's possible. (Anyway you have a ridgeback don't you, that's sighthound-ish ).

Yes I do, except I think the "ish" part plays a big role in the difference between them and the other of the breeds we talk about.

The likely opinions of other forums have been raised in this thread - I can promise you if I raised this question in a Saluki or Borzoi forum, I'd be told to never to let the dogs off lead in an unfenced area, or expect a dead dog one day. No matter what training mehtod I employed, or how good a trainer I was.

I've heard that of the Husky as well.

I'd still be interested to know WHAT methods have been tried and tested by any person who claims a 100% recall can't be achieved for those breeds.

I know what you mean about safety though. As I've mentioned, my boy has tremendous recall and this is something I am immensley proud of. He's a full on dog and runs like the wind. I wouldn't like to be in a smallish unfenced area off lead, one reason being is that in the one or two seconds it takes for my brain to register he is off (and of course, I might have blinked away for one of those seconds) and then I have to draw breath to recall, he has covered sooooo much ground. With development, it's not quite as lightening fast as it was when he was a bit younger, but it is fast. So I like space, because it gives me a bit more response time.

And of course, I'm not really a risk taker for unnecessary reasons that carry nil to next-to-nil benefit to either myself or my dog. So there's no need to push it. But I train for it whenever and wherever possible, for the "just in case of the unexpecteds" that might happen. As I think JulesP said .... how would we know 100% until it was something we could look on with the advantage of hindsight. BUT, for all that us mere mortals can only imagine as reasonable expectations, I still do believe 100% recall is possible, no matter the breed.

Edited May 8, 2010 by Erny

[huski]

I've heard that of the Husky as well.

Uh oh Erny, I am going to be in big trouble with the Sibe people if someone else starts writing Huski instead of Husky

I think that when it comes to breeds like Siberians attaining a very reliable recall is difficult for the average pet owner. Many breeders will not sell to pet owners who do not agree not to let the dog off unless in safe, secure areas. Mish has an ok recall but I haven't worked on it much at all, I think if I dedicated time to it I could get it very very reliable.

Daisy's recall in an obedience situation is usually 99% but I don't trust her when she's in an open area on a scent. She literally switches off and I believe cannot hear you because her scent drive is so strong. I can walk up to her when she's on a scent and she will get a surprise if I touch her. This has improved with the drive training we are doing and I can work her off leash easily when we are training with no problem. I honestly don't think she could attain a totally reliable recall without e-collar training, JMO.

Edited May 8, 2010 by huski

[SkySoaringMagpie]

I'd still be interested to know WHAT methods have been tried and tested by any person who claims a 100% recall can't be achieved for those breeds.

The problem is not the methods tho'.

People working computer helpdesks have the expression PICNIC - Problem in Chair Not In Computer. I don't know if there is a similar expression for dog training but often people on breed lists saying "DON'T!" aren't saying that because they believe it's impossible. They're saying it because they believe tha in most cases it is highly unlikely that your average person can stick with what is required. Especially if that person is a newbie asking a question. Experienced people won't ask because they already know the answer for them.

[Diva]

Or are those who say that 100% (under circumstances that can at least be within reason expected .... for example, my dog isn't proofed to recalling in the presence of a dinosaur) cannot be attained, are meaning that it cannot be attained no matter the method (assuming reasonable humane methods).

Well my current 'always turns on a dime when I call her at the usual park' dog did fail to recall when she realised 2 young humans were 'mating' on the cricket pitch, but I put that in the dinosaur category. She did tear herself away on the second or third call which is good, as I didn't want to have to walk over to get her

I'd have better recalls on my current bunch if I practised it much more diligently and if I had conditioned them to roos and stock as baby puppies. So they could be better with more effort. 100% in all situations, I don't know. I don't use food much as reward by the way, my dogs often have little interest in it when they have been running. The best reinforcement for recalling 'the driven one' seems to be doing it from a distance so she gets to run fast back to me. Self reinforcing and backed up by praise, chasing me, a game, thrown toy, another release to play....

One might respond to e-collar training, if that is where you are headed. The other 2 would be quite likely to shut down or freak out I think. And all of their breeders and my breed mentors would likely take out a contract on me if I used an e-collar on any of them.

[SkySoaringMagpie]

Well my current 'always turns on a dime when I call her at the usual park' dog did fail to recall when she realised 2 young humans were 'mating' on the cricket pitch, but I put that in the dinosaur category. She did tear herself away on the second or third call which is good, as I didn't want to have to walk over to get her :D

I can see all the DOL trainers scribbling this one down in their notepad for "things to proof against". Hee!

[Diva]

This thread may be the place to ask a question about the 'perfect recall' Borzoi I mentioned earlier.

I know people will doubt the story, but she truly never failed to come immediately when called. And it's relevant to the main point of the thread I think.

I have always had a theory that her recall, and probably her immense trust of people, was conditioned in the nest. Building on her temperament of course, but trained very early.

It wouldn't have been intentional on her breeders part, she was no believer in formal obedience training for the breed when I knew her then. But she was/is one of the best people I have ever met in handling both young dogs and the breed generally. If she was still breeding I'd have never gotten a Borzoi anywhere else.

But what do the trainers think - can you imprint the basic recall really deeply in a baby puppy, say before 10 weeks? Is that theoretically possible?

[Cosmolo]

I think yes Diva- that would certainly be possible.

[Diva]

Thanks Cosmolo, if I ever do breed I'll have to think very hard about that. The recall issue is really the only drawback I experience with the breed (that and trying to fit 3 into a Ford Focus )

[JulesP]

I had a really good recall on my pup by 12 weeks. She has so far, at 5 months old, never not recalled. And gosh does she come in fast . Love watching her fly in.

[corvus]

The best reinforcement for recalling 'the driven one' seems to be doing it from a distance so she gets to run fast back to me.

That's funny. My little Vallhund is a far cry from a sighthound, but sometimes he recalls for the hell of it. He'll come tearing in at full speed, refuse any treats offered, then take off again. I started reinforcing those ones with chasie tug games so he'd at least hang around until told to go play again. I've just introduce ball catches as a new reward. He gets outrageously smug about catching balls.

ETA Love Salukis and Borzois. Every time I hear people talk about them I start wanting one again. Maybe one day when I no longer live in the 'burbs. *tells OH to change careers so we don't have to live in a big city*

Edited May 8, 2010 by corvus

[Erny]

The best reinforcement for recalling 'the driven one' seems to be doing it from a distance so she gets to run fast back to me. Self reinforcing and backed up by praise, chasing me, a game, thrown toy, another release to play....

When I'm working with dogs who have prior learning of slow recalls, distance recall can often be useful to grab the opportunity to reinforce for the speed. Then I begin working with them to teach some speed even at more close up distances.

I think I have a video clip of Mandela doing a short recall and if memory serves me correctly, it is pretty fast for a short recall. If I can find it, and if I can work out how to upload to YouTube and then link it, I will. <sigh> .... I have lousy computer skills .

[Erny]

Uh oh Erny, I am going to be in big trouble with the Sibe people if someone else starts writing Huski instead of Husky :D

LOL .... it's a habit for my 'touch type fingers' - my name ends in "i" so I'm kind of used to doing that. Sorry. I've edited mine if you would edit my quote within your post . Don't want to be in bit trouble with no Sibe people .

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

PICNIC - when did that term get coined. Back in my day, when XTs were all the rage or even before that - we called it PEBCAK = Problem Exists between Chair and Keyboard.

Won't tell you what FOOBAR means (and it's properly spelled FUBAR). But I laugh every time I see it being used in plain sight. Especially for sample product names.

Doggy equivalent

DIMITO - Dog is more intelligent than owner.

[huski]

I think I have a video clip of Mandela doing a short recall and if memory serves me correctly, it is pretty fast for a short recall. If I can find it, and if I can work out how to upload to YouTube and then link it, I will. <sigh> .... I have lousy computer skills :D .

Let me know if you would like a hand Erny, it's easy as I've got more than sixty videos on my channel

LOL .... it's a habit for my 'touch type fingers' - my name ends in "i" so I'm kind of used to doing that. Sorry. I've edited mine if you would edit my quote within your post . Don't want to be in bit trouble with no Sibe people .

Done... although you know I was just teasing you right??

[Erny]

Well my current 'always turns on a dime when I call her at the usual park' dog did fail to recall when she realised 2 young humans were 'mating' on the cricket pitch, but I put that in the dinosaur category. She did tear herself away on the second or third call which is good, as I didn't want to have to walk over to get her :D

- Must say I haven't had the opportunity to train and proof my boy to that down at any parks yet either.

I don't use food much as reward by the way, my dogs often have little interest in it when they have been running.

I don't often use food either, for the same reason. If my boy is 'blowing' because of his running, he'll likely choke on it anyway. Half the time he's too revved to be bothered with food. Tug reward is a favourite, as is throwing his Orbee ball.

One might respond to e-collar training, if that is where you are headed.

It did cross my mind . I've not had any failures in training the recall (even with dogs who have learnt to ignore/fail in the past) using the e-collar.

The other 2 would be quite likely to shut down or freak out I think.

I've worked with the e-collar on the most softest and sensitive of dogs. I had 2 BC's in for B&T at one point. They were unusual in their characters and it was fairly obvious that their alliance was to each other, with little to no experience in working for people. One in particular shut down on me when all I was doing was food reward training (all positive) and that was before e-collar training. They were with me for 20 days. At one stage I actually did wonder whether I was going to be able to bring about a break-through. But once they learnt about the stim cue and what I expected, all of a sudden they seemed to bloom. Not at the same time - one seemed to 'click on' faster than the other. But by the end of the 20 days I had recalls from 50 metres; stays etc. The owner was a bit gob-smacked because when I went through the demonstration component of the handover, she was really surprised her dogs didn't try to take off after the traffic going past out the front (fenced area, in case you wonder).

Point being, these dogs were particularly sensitive, one more than the other. The super sensitive one, once she shut down, no more training/learning could occur. And yet the e-collar, because it can be worked to suit only to the sensitivity of the dog, can be a fine tool, even for them. The stim level was soooooo low (I was working them on a 1 or 2 on a 127 stim level collar ..... that's the equivalent to 0.1 on a 10 level collar - actually, it would be even less than that). I don't feel the collar myself until about level 16. My boy's normal working level is about 10 - 12.

And all of their breeders and my breed mentors would likely take out a contract on me if I used an e-collar on any of them.

THAT I can't help . ETA: But it's a shame, because there is possibly a few dogs around who might not ever or very rarely enjoy the freedom that can only come without a physical leash attached.

Edited May 8, 2010 by Erny

[Erny]

Done... although you know I was just teasing you right?? :D

Yep - I know that. Must admit, I hate spelling errors myself and if they occur it is usually because I haven't read back what I've typed. I know I did another one in this thread (I think) - I wrote "their" instead of "they're" or vice versa. By the time I went back I think I'd already been quoted, so I didn't bother with changing it. But it annoys me.

I'm sure there's a trillion other boo boo's I've made without realising too.

[Erny]

Let me know if you would like a hand Erny, it's easy as I've got more than sixty videos on my channel

Thanks. I'll see if I can find it. I recorded it on my camcord and then copied it into my HDD to my TV and from there copied it to disk. Not sure if it works on the computer. I'll try it, when I lay my hands on it.

[Erny]

But what do the trainers think - can you imprint the basic recall really deeply in a baby puppy, say before 10 weeks? Is that theoretically possible?

I too think it would be. Remember the "pupupupupupup" ? That always works to attract a puppy to you - it's something they know from when the breeder began calling them for their dinner, when they were at the age of eating solids. I think the conditioned response deteriorates over time if it stops being used, but many many dogs I've worked with still give me that indication that they know that sound, even if it is a long distant memory for them.

From the "in the nest" and through early day training and then beyond, if you put your dog in a position where they don't get to fail a recall, then it lands an extraordinarily good foundation as a conditioned response. But it does rely on that consistency over time for it to stick.

ETA : I don't know nor had ever heard of stuff/words such as PICNIC etc. before (other than to suggest a warm soft sunny day on a blanket under the filtering shade of a tree, and food, and wine ). I'm thinking you lot are somewhat younger (like half) than I .

Edited May 8, 2010 by Erny