100% Recall

[Staranais]

Diva, the thing with Daisy's recall is that if she's not on a heavy scent, she will recall quite reliably. I honestly think when scenting like that she is switched off to all around her and can't hear me and that fits in to what I understand about drive peak too. Beagles were bred to focus solely on the scent and that they'd switch off to any distractions around them was desirable. I don't think it would be impossible to train a reliable recall but like I said earlier I think to get that with Daisy I would need to do some ecollar training.

So I wonder, is there some tradeoff there? I imagine scent hounds were bred to ignore distractions since it made them better at their job. So if you train an uber-reliable recall in your scent hound - by whatever method-, does that mean that the dog is always on some level listening for the recall while it is working, and is therefore somewhat less focused on the scent, and will be less likely to be an exceptional scenting hound?

If that were true then perhaps a great recall in a scent hound is possible, but not always desirable, for some working dogs?

Just thinking out loud here.

[huski]

That’s an interesting idea, SA. Daisy is one of the most scent driven beagles I’ve met, to the point that when we meet up with other beagles they all hang out together and Daisy is always off on her own scenting What we’ve done for obedience is try to harness the natural drive she has and redirect it so we can work in food drive (case in point – it does work relatively well and I do have a dog who can focus nicely under most distractions http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_4ZcNZGS72o , she is also quite keen to work now too). Before, I would be lucky to have ten seconds of that kind of focus and I could shove food under her nose and she wouldn’t notice it because she was scenting so heavily. I didn’t start this training with her until she was two years old though so she had a long time to learn scenting was the best and quickest way to get drive satisfaction. I am interested to see what it will be like training a beagle pup with this method from day one.

[jesomil]

A little OT but I just wanted to comment on the video with Daisy.

Huski, you have come so far with her!! Her focus and the speed at which she respond to commands is great. Well done

Thats the happiest little beagle i have seen heeling!

[Vickie]

I don't chase ours either because that is a game and so doesn't work for "make sure behaviour you don't like is unsuccessful". That's why I use the expression "walking down"

I don't run away but I walk slowly in a direction I calculate will be successful and I do it with a poker face and whatever the equivalent to a poker face is for body language.

I have been away & there are pages & pages added since I last posted. Would just like to clarify that I don't chase dogs either. I use a very similar method to the one SSM describes above.

In addition, I do it when they are too young to be smart enough to try outrun me anyway and find it easier to start in a confined area.

I have used this methods successfully on a number of horses when I was younger (who certainly DID have the ability to outrun if they chose). This is a mind game, not a physical one. While not positive, I don't believe it is cruel & have never had a bad relationship with either horse or dog because of it.

[JulesP]

I walk mine down too and attach the lead with as little interaction as possible. This is also how I catch them for baths, lol. Once I have the puppy on lead I will then do a couple of onlead recalls with suitable praise. The naughty horses got to do groundwork!

Actually I've had to catch the cats like this a couple of times too! (well lots of times!)

[Simply Grand]

Ok - so may I just clarify, for the purpose of this thread (and not for the purpose of novice handlers of certain sighthound breeds) that those who have suggested against 100% (in the terms that we're speaking of) recall possibility, have only said that in case novice people who own certain sighthound breeds are reading?

I'd have to go right back through the whole thread to read exactly who said exactly what, so I'm generalising because I do know that there have been posts that suggest it is not (or very unlikely) possible and that's the part I disagree with.

I said way back on page 1 that I don't think you could ever be sure that a dog will recall 100% of the time, even though you may be lucky and never come across the situation where they don't. I was referring to the dinosour / humans 'mating' on the oval ( ) situations.

I'm sure it would be possible for most dogs, with the right training method and effort, to recall every single time for their entire life, but to me that still wouldn't guarantee 100% recall. It's excellent recall every time, until they come across their dinosaur (which, as I said before, they may never come across!)

Sorry I know that's a bit confusing (and pedantic). I guess it comes back to what Aidan said, 100% of what?

Reading all the posts has been very interesting and has made me think, but hasn't in the end changed my personal opinion from what I said at the beginning. I guess in applying my opinion to real life, it means that I wouldn't have my dog off-leash in a high-risk area unless there was a very good reason for it (outweighing the risk of him not recalling), even if he came every single time I called him. And I wouldn't test it in a high risk situation to know if it was effective there anyway .

[huski]

A little OT but I just wanted to comment on the video with Daisy.

Huski, you have come so far with her!! Her focus and the speed at which she respond to commands is great. Well done

Thats the happiest little beagle i have seen heeling!

Aww, thanks for the lovely compliment on my girl, Jesomil :)

We still don't have a very reliable recall (outside of obedience) though

[pixie_meg]

I just seriously doubt that it's only a prey drive issue. My girl has a high (high high high) prey drive, as do most working line mallies, and also a very good recall - it's getting better all the time, and we're aiming for 100%. So the difference can't just be an intense prey drive. There must be something else going on with the sighthounds that makes them harder to teach recall to? Are they less biddable? Less pack driven? More inclined to look to their handler for prey drive reward? Or is it simply that we tend to imprint shepherd type puppies on toys that we're holding - rather than imprinting them on a lure off in the distance?

I think its more than just the prey drive issue, i think its also a matter of how they think. I don't think pleasing their owners is high on many sighthounds minds.

My Borzoi is only 10 months old so i'm not sure what he'll be like as an adult but my struggle with recall is 2 things. Firstly its the way he seems to think. that independent thought he has where he loses focus because there are so many things happening around the place that he has trouble focusing on me.

2ndly its when he cant be bothered as he doesn't deem it to be worth it. but i guess this is probably beginner training issues and its still early days. figuring out how to get him motivated to recall is hard especially when he really likes playing with other dogs.

From what i've seen there is a really big difference in responsiveness in the different breeds.

[bedazzledx2]

I think thats a very fair and honest assessment. I spend a huge amount of time and effort in early training for a reliable recall and in the main I think I have it. Having said that I won't put my dog in danger by having him off lead in a dangerous situation and thats the reality. I see many people walk their dogs on the footpath of a busy road without a lead. My dog is very well trained to both heel and recall but there is no way I will put him in that sort of potential danger.

So yes, I think you can train for a reliable recall but there is always that one thing that just happens and you cant proof against.

Ok - so may I just clarify, for the purpose of this thread (and not for the purpose of novice handlers of certain sighthound breeds) that those who have suggested against 100% (in the terms that we're speaking of) recall possibility, have only said that in case novice people who own certain sighthound breeds are reading?

I'd have to go right back through the whole thread to read exactly who said exactly what, so I'm generalising because I do know that there have been posts that suggest it is not (or very unlikely) possible and that's the part I disagree with.

I said way back on page 1 that I don't think you could ever be sure that a dog will recall 100% of the time, even though you may be lucky and never come across the situation where they don't. I was referring to the dinosour / humans 'mating' on the oval ( ) situations.

I'm sure it would be possible for most dogs, with the right training method and effort, to recall every single time for their entire life, but to me that still wouldn't guarantee 100% recall. It's excellent recall every time, until they come across their dinosaur (which, as I said before, they may never come across!)

Sorry I know that's a bit confusing (and pedantic). I guess it comes back to what Aidan said, 100% of what?

Reading all the posts has been very interesting and has made me think, but hasn't in the end changed my personal opinion from what I said at the beginning. I guess in applying my opinion to real life, it means that I wouldn't have my dog off-leash in a high-risk area unless there was a very good reason for it (outweighing the risk of him not recalling), even if he came every single time I called him. And I wouldn't test it in a high risk situation to know if it was effective there anyway .