100% Recall

[Aidan]

I agree that I could never offer my dogs something more exciting than what they are after.

So do I. The evidence tells me it doesn't matter.

[jesomil]

I have been hesitant to enter this discussion...but now I have an ally , I will.

I have always felt that having a recall based purely on reward makes it optional for the dog. Flame me too .

I agree. I have never seen a dog that is trained with positive methods only, recall solidly under heavy distraction. Two trainer friends of mine who have their own positive training businesses just manage their dogs off lead. They always have to have a bag of treats and make sure the area is fenced and their arent too many distractions.

There was a big discussion on this a few years back and some people swore their dogs recalled well with positive methods but I have yet to see it myself.

I start teaching a recall with rewards eg food. The dog learns that every time it comes, it gets food. After a while, they know the command well and recall beautifully with a reward every time.

Then I up the distractions and wait for the one time the dog chooses not to respond. I then make the dog uncomfortable in whatever way works for the dog until it turns towards me again, then i back off and be happy.

When they come after being put under pressure, they get rewarded with lots of praise. They get the idea very quickly that it is better to respond than ignore the recall command. It requires exact timing or you just cause confusion. Poor timing creates poor recalls. It has to be black or white, pressure or praise. Most dogs choose praise!

By saying making the dog uncomfortable, I dont mean using violence, it all depends on the dog and their temperament. It might be a loud UH!! or a growl and a foot stamp near them, or a grab of the collar etc etc etc. By reading the dog, you can work out what makes them uncomfortable.

Sheepdogs tend to have good recalls as they are trained for and constantly recall off their biggest reward in life which is working. Treats and balls arent going to get a sheepdog to stop working!!

The proof is always in the pudding though. If your dog recalls happily and enthusiastically every time, you have a good method!

[SkySoaringMagpie]

I agree. I have never seen a dog that is trained with positive methods only, recall solidly under heavy distraction. Two trainer friends of mine who have their own positive training businesses just manage their dogs off lead.

I think it depends what you mean by positive only tho'? I have seen a solid recall under heavy distraction (running mob of roos) from a dog trained by someone who I respect a lot who trains positively. However I don't know if he also employs management techniques when the dogs are young. If he does, does that mean he's not positive? The dog was a border collie btw, not a sighthound

The method of not ever allowing them to self-reward by not coming back is one I first heard recommended by an old time Saluki tracking trainer which is why I go and get ours when they don't recall. Perhaps it's me being duffer headed but I never considered that incompatible with positive training?

For me an aversive training based recall would be one where you employ an e-collar.

Edited for clarity.

Edited May 7, 2010 by SkySoaringMagpie

[corvus]

I have always felt that having a recall based purely on reward makes it optional for the dog. Flame me too .

I agree. I have never seen a dog that is trained with positive methods only, recall solidly under heavy distraction. Two trainer friends of mine who have their own positive training businesses just manage their dogs off lead. They always have to have a bag of treats and make sure the area is fenced and their arent too many distractions.

But it's the easiest way! That's what Leslie Nelson of Really Reliable Recall fame does with her Afghans. Everyone I know who has used that method or variations thereof have very reliable recalls on their dogs. As I said before, it works for calling the independent little small game hunter off small game. I challenge anyone to teach that dog a recall by just "going and getting" him when he doesn't come. I do believe that method was tried. He is wily and he is fast when he wants to be. If he doesn't want to be caught you can't catch him. Putting on "the tone" just means he'll run faster. He's not dumb.

I thought the whole point of training a conditioned recall (with rewards or without) was to take the "optional" out of it. As has been said several times. They just do it. Where's the choice in a knee-jerk reaction?

[SkySoaringMagpie]

But it's the easiest way! That's what Leslie Nelson of Really Reliable Recall fame does with her Afghans. Everyone I know who has used that method or variations thereof have very reliable recalls on their dogs. As I said before, it works for calling the independent little small game hunter off small game. I challenge anyone to teach that dog a recall by just "going and getting" him when he doesn't come. I do believe that method was tried. He is wily and he is fast when he wants to be. If he doesn't want to be caught you can't catch him. Putting on "the tone" just means he'll run faster. He's not dumb.

I don't think anyone is suggesting that "going and getting them" is a magic bullet. I think one builds a better recall with a range of techniques which include both rewarding appropriate behaviour (coming back) and trying to ensure that inappropriate behaviour (not coming back) is unsuccessful.

I can stand on the porch and call our Afghans back in to the house. Did it 5 minutes ago. You would have to interview them to find out why they recall but perhaps the answer would be "because we might get a snack, and if we don't come in she'll come and walk us down anyway". As there's no way to know what they're thinking, I'll continue to go with what I think works, and making sure unwanted behaviour is unsuccessful is part of what works for me.

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

I can't just go get my dog when she doesn't come back, because then we go into a nice game (for her) of nyah nyah, can't catch me.

I hide. I try to be less predictable. I run away, she chases. She likes to know where I am and comes looking all by herself if I'm not where she looks for me.

I have one other method that works very well. I have a large white beef chip, that she only gets on special occasions. It takes a little while to eat and is "hard to get". I wave that at her and she's right back with me. This is slightly better than hiding when there are distractions that might get upset with her looking for me through a dog competition ring.

And I've just trained her to roll over, and if she does that for the beef chip, I can get her back on lead. Worked this morning. I let her enjoy the beef chip and then had a game of tug. Being on lead sucks (from her point of view) but not so much as it used to.

[Black Bronson]

I didnt use methods requiring me to be more exciting than what they were after though as it simply wouldnt work. I use negative reinforcement always for recalls as that has provided me with happy, confident, safe dogs to take out.

I have been hesitant to enter this discussion...but now I have an ally , I will.

I agree that I could never offer my dogs something more exciting than what they are after. I guess I use negative reinforcement as well (although have used positives too).

I start the first time they ever ignore my call. I just simply go & get them grab their collar & pull them a little toward me, then let go & let them choose to follow, if they don't I repeat the process, and again & again, until they believe they have no choice. They learn early that they never have the option of not coming as I will go get them. Shine probably has the best recall I have ever had in a dog (so far it is 100% but I could not possibly test it against everything). She was taught to recall off sheep before she ever worked & she has never not responded to my "that'll do" command. She has recalled off dogs, people, flying ducks, cattle & just last week 3 very speedy kangaroos. I whistle & generally my dogs will about-turn in full stride on hearing the whistle. I very rarely reward them for coming back, but may give verbal praise sometimes.

I have always felt that having a recall based purely on reward makes it optional for the dog. Flame me too .

I totally agree, in fact, one of mine has an excellent recall in drive when working, but during a casual off leash stroll, his recall was slow, "when I have finished sniffing" attitude. After weeks of trying to condition the dog with positive reinforcement, we tried an E collar and did that get him moving That was a couple of years ago and since an afternoon with the E collar, his distance recall is great. The dog IMO needs to learn that there are negatives to misbehaviour.

[Black Bronson]

I didnt use methods requiring me to be more exciting than what they were after though as it simply wouldnt work. I use negative reinforcement always for recalls as that has provided me with happy, confident, safe dogs to take out.

I have been hesitant to enter this discussion...but now I have an ally , I will.

I agree that I could never offer my dogs something more exciting than what they are after. I guess I use negative reinforcement as well (although have used positives too).

I start the first time they ever ignore my call. I just simply go & get them grab their collar & pull them a little toward me, then let go & let them choose to follow, if they don't I repeat the process, and again & again, until they believe they have no choice. They learn early that they never have the option of not coming as I will go get them. Shine probably has the best recall I have ever had in a dog (so far it is 100% but I could not possibly test it against everything). She was taught to recall off sheep before she ever worked & she has never not responded to my "that'll do" command. She has recalled off dogs, people, flying ducks, cattle & just last week 3 very speedy kangaroos. I whistle & generally my dogs will about-turn in full stride on hearing the whistle. I very rarely reward them for coming back, but may give verbal praise sometimes.

I have always felt that having a recall based purely on reward makes it optional for the dog. Flame me too .

I totally agree, in fact, one of mine has an excellent recall in drive when working, but during a casual off leash stroll, his recall was slow, "when I have finished sniffing" attitude. After weeks of trying to condition the dog with positive reinforcement, we tried an E collar and did that get him moving That was a couple of years ago and since an afternoon with the E collar, his distance recall is great. The dog IMO needs to learn that there are negatives to misbehaviour.

[SkySoaringMagpie]

I can't just go get my dog when she doesn't come back, because then we go into a nice game (for her) of nyah nyah, can't catch me.

I hide. I try to be less predictable. I run away, she chases. She likes to know where I am and comes looking all by herself if I'm not where she looks for me.

I don't chase ours either because that is a game and so doesn't work for "make sure behaviour you don't like is unsuccessful". That's why I use the expression "walking down"

I don't run away but I walk slowly in a direction I calculate will be successful and I do it with a poker face and whatever the equivalent to a poker face is for body language. Lots of playing possum and no wheedling but no "you betta right now!!" chest beating either. It works for whatever reason. In some ways i wish I knew technically how it works because bringing out the blue slip leads we have lying around the house into the back yard is usually enough for them to recall or cease and desist when a verbal cue doesn't work. They know "blue lead = game over" but I'm not exactly sure how we've taught that. The leads have never been used to check or correct FWIW, just to manage the dog when a recall doesn't work.

I have heard of other people spending hours chasing their Afghans or Salukis to get them to come inside - perhaps their dogs are smarter than ours. We've never had to do that, I can walk a dog down in under a minute.

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

For my dog and yours SkySoaringMagpie, I'm pretty sure that freedom is a reward, and going on lead is a negative/adversive.

So if each time your dogs as puppies were naughty or behaved unacceptably, you got out the blue lead and put them on, there goes the freedom, and that would be sufficiently unpleasant to impact on the long term memory.

I have taught my dog that "shutting the door now" means if you don't come inside right now, you're going to be stuck outside by yourself for at least 10 minutes, but maybe hours. And yelling will not save you. Gets me a fast recall. And if it's ever slow, we just repeat the 10 minute exercise (or as long as it takes for her to stop yelling or me to remember I left her out there, or get home after going out).

Unfortunately I can't shut her out at the beach.

I have tried getting in the car and shutting the door without her, but that didn't seem to bother her all that much. Even cranking up the car had no desirable effect.

[jesomil]

Mrs Rusty Bucket, basically from what you have said, your dog has no recall and seems to call the shots a fair bit.

If you started training recall in a small area, you certainly could catch your dog and there would be no chance of playing the nyah nyah game.

Every dog loves their freedom and doesnt want to go back on lead!! Its whether you give them the option to disobey or not.

Edited May 7, 2010 by jesomil

[jesomil]

But it's the easiest way! That's what Leslie Nelson of Really Reliable Recall fame does with her Afghans. Everyone I know who has used that method or variations thereof have very reliable recalls on their dogs. As I said before, it works for calling the independent little small game hunter off small game. I challenge anyone to teach that dog a recall by just "going and getting" him when he doesn't come. I do believe that method was tried. He is wily and he is fast when he wants to be. If he doesn't want to be caught you can't catch him. Putting on "the tone" just means he'll run faster. He's not dumb.

I dont believe just going and getting him would work either. Wouldnt work on any dog.

So are you saying that you think its ok to manage a dogs environment and always have a bag of treats on board to get a really good recall?

[Adnil444]

I honestly think saying "100%" is just not realistic. People may have dogs with incredible recall and they gloat about their dogs having 100% recall and knowing their dogs like the back of their hands etc, but seriously how are they to forsee the future, to forsee ANYTHING in the future that may one day make their dog stop and decide NOT to recall? Be it fright, distraction, animal, person, noise, scent...

To say your dog has 100% recall is like saying you can see into the future. Cos what's to say tomorrow something will happen when they are offlead and they won't recall??

It's just not realistic in my opinion.

Fair enough your dogs may have great, fantastic, amazing recall, thats great! I think that's cool as, I really do. But to say 100% just doesn't work with me. I think those with great recall have done a great job at training, don't get me wrong! You can say your dogs have 99.99% recall, I'm happy with that. Just not 100%

Agree totally. Dogs apparently have the brain capacity like that of a human toddler - whose toddler out there was perfect at coming when you called their name?? I know mine certainly wasn't, he wanted to explore his world etc. I would say that one of mine is 99.9% at recall, terrific, however there will be a time when he doesn't come and I'm aware of this. My other one, has pretty good recall - that is at the dog park if there is a dog fight, she will want to go and "sticky-beak" and won't come when I call her; if a swf starts squealing, again she is off like a rocket to explore and won't come when I call her (and chase her to get her back). All other times she is great and will come when called and is always treated and praised for doing so. She was much better before she hit puberty and I am hoping that she is just going through her teenage years and will settle down again. But I am always working on her.

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

Jesomil

Sorry if I gave you the impression she had no recall whatsoever. If that was true, she would not be home with me now. Or I'd never let her off lead.

She will come back - no matter what - about 19 times out of 20. I have called her away from dog fights, exciting new things like horses, families having picnics, playing with her friends, new puppies. About 4 times out of 5 she will give up that yummy disgusting thing for something I have. I got some sort of bird skull off her today. Maybe an emu skull, no idea what it was doing on the beach but I really didn't want her to eat it.

It's that 1 in 20 - that I'm trying to get. There were sand trucks on my favourite beach this morning and there will be for another month at least, and while they try to co-exist with pedestrians, anything that big and loud going faster than 10km/h gets her attention. So I couldn't walk there or let her off lead there. I want recall in the presence of a small quarry truck I guess.

At home I've been experimenting with the nyah nyah, from never playing it and going back inside without her and playing on the computer for a while, or playing it for a little while and turning it into a game of heel work obedience, which gets her where I can reach her and stopped in a stay. The fastest way to get her to do what I want, is to do what she wants for two minutes and then she just lets me walk up to her and put the lead on. I've got no idea what's going on there. I know she's got me well trained but it is a mutual thing. I like to think of it as team work or a partnership where both have some input and both get to say what they want. And neither of us always gets our way. Although ultimately, I always get my way in the end. Or we'd still be at the beach or she'd be dead from eating something life threatening.

I suspect some of the current theory on how to manage a dog, isn't quite right.

Or why would she play the game for a little while and then give up so easily. Another thing she does, though she knows perfectly well it will end with her on lead - is go up onto balconies of clubrooms with me. It's a usually narrow space so I can always catch her, but it also has a commanding view and she loves being up high. So we get to the top of the stairs, she lets me put the lead on. We spend a minute or so (or not) checking the view and then go home. When she first figured out that going on the balcony would get her caught, she stopped going up there and I had to use other ways to catch her, something different every time. But now, she just lets me. Sometimes, we don't even get to the balcony. She lets me catch her before we even get there.

I've done a lot of research and reading on different dog training methods successful and failures - but I haven't found anything that explains what is going on here. I've had other dogs, who were much easier to train for me, even jack russells.

Edited May 7, 2010 by Mrs Rusty Bucket

[JulesP]

Had an interesting recall/come issue yesterday. Brock (4yo BC) has been sad because his friend died this week and the younger 2 aren't playing with him. As a treat I thought I would bring him in to sit with me in the dining room. He has been taught not to leave the kitchen. He would not come into the dining room. Not even with a firm recall command. So the don't leave the kitchen command was obviously stronger. I had to put him on lead to get him into the dining room!

[jesomil]

I honestly think saying "100%" is just not realistic.

Or do you mean in your experience it is just not realistic? People tend to base their opinions on their own experience but it doesnt mean it isnt possible.

Mrs Rusty Bucket, from what you say it sounds like recall to your dog means "come if I feel like it".

If managing her like this works for you then thats great but if I were you, I would be teaching her that a recall means come and come only, no excuses, no hiding, no bribery.

She lets me catch her before we even get there.

This line suggests that it is the dog making the rules not you.

[corvus]

The dog IMO needs to learn that there are negatives to misbehaviour.

Yeah, I used to think that. But then I thought I'd try liberating myself from it and seeing what happened.

[corvus]

So are you saying that you think its ok to manage a dogs environment and always have a bag of treats on board to get a really good recall?

I don't have to have a bag of treats on board to get a recall. Because my dogs have conditioned recalls. It was discussed quite early in the thread. I think it's okay to manage a dog's environment to make yourself feel confident. I personally do not have to do that.

I have called my dogs without having treats and they come anyway. But I normally have treats, so I reward them. A couple of weeks ago OH recalled Erik in an attempt to get him to come around the coffee table and notice the mouse running around there and hopefully chase it. Erik came all right, and ran right past the mouse. So much for that attempt to set Erik up to fail his recall.

[Erny]

I don't have to have a bag of treats on board to get a recall. Because my dogs have conditioned recalls. It was discussed quite early in the thread. I think it's okay to manage a dog's environment to make yourself feel confident. I personally do not have to do that.

I have called my dogs without having treats and they come anyway. But I normally have treats, so I reward them. A couple of weeks ago OH recalled Erik in an attempt to get him to come around the coffee table and notice the mouse running around there and hopefully chase it. Erik came all right, and ran right past the mouse. So much for that attempt to set Erik up to fail his recall.

That's great if that's what you're getting in your recall response Corvus. But I don't understand - in another thread (dog parks) you very much insist that command reliability (effective control) isn't realistic and that you "regularly apologise" to others down at the park. I think it is wonderful if you have achieved the level of reliability in your dogs' recalls you have implied here, but I'm not sure how "reliable" you are talking about above.

I don't have to use treats as a reward for recall either. But I do reward my dog in some fashion that he finds satisfying. I've trained him using drive techniques and I've also used the negative reinforcement technique with the aid of the e-collar, which produces a very low annoying (and yes, therefore aversive) but certainly not painful stimulation. His recalls are extraordinary, if I do say so myself - immediate, fast and powerful. The only problem with them is the finish, because he's still coming in too fast and not checking soon enough before he reaches me. We're working on that, but I'd rather have the former than the latter and I don't wish to affect his speed. I hardly ever need to use the e-collar for his recalls anymore, although he's still young and in training, so the e-collar is on him should I require it.

The area my boy still needs work on is his 'intensity' when interacting with other dogs and for this I want to use recalls away from other dogs when other dogs are right on him. I can achieve a recall with a (approx) ten foot distance (even if he's the one running full on to them) but if the other dog that might be in the park insists on being right with him, that's our current weak area. We're working on that though and beginning to see signs of improvement. This part of his training relies on other people being responsible and co-operative, and their dogs being of suitable temperament, so I don't often get a chance to work him for this aspect.

His recall responses are not just about the e-collar 'cue' either - once he's back I do reward him with whatever is suitable at the time. Sometimes that might be a food treat. Sometimes tug. Sometimes I throw his orbee-ball. It all depends on what the environment allows me to do, what the weather is like (too hot for much running?) and whether he is tiring or not. Mixed in amongst these things is my praise signalling my approval. His other frequent reward is that he'll also be sent off and out again, to do what he wants (sniff etc) so he doesn't cue the recall as end of freedom.

I also use the "TOT" exercise - have done so at every meal time since he was 9 weeks old. That equates now to twice a day because that's the feeding schedule he's on. But way back when he was on 4 meals a day and then 3 meals a day, that's how often we practiced "TOT". Recall is just one of the exercises I might put him through during "TOT". I also will take it to another area outside of the home, but it needs to be somewhere that I know other dogs aren't going to help themselves to his food while we're working, so the frequency of that is limited. Not to mention that when it comes to food, if there are other dog distractions where we are, he's not as interested in his food as he would be for the tug. So I don't work "TOT" in outside areas as much. It's also less convenient than the tug anyway.

I agree with others that the definition of people's perception of "100%" needs to be clarified. But in general day to day things that we train for, in and around, yes, I think it is possible for the proofed result to give 100% recall response.

ETA: The above aside .......... if YOU don't reach for 100%, then your achievement is quite possibly going to be lower than someone who does reach for it, regardless of whether they attain it or not. Why reach for the stars when you can touch the moon?

Edited May 8, 2010 by Erny

[jesomil]

Yeah, I used to think that. But then I thought I'd try liberating myself from it and seeing what happened

And how did that work for you? Have you been able to achieve a recall where your dog comes immediately and fast under every circumstance?

I am all for learning different ways of doing things but not if it doesnt produce the high standard I work towards.