100% Recall

[Bjelkier]

Ok so most people are of the opinion that 100% is impossible, correct?

What then is concidered reliable?

Also is it possible for the highest reward for a dog to be its owner?

Is that level of training possible?

[Staranais]

Also is it possible for the highest reward for a dog to be its owner?

Is that level of training possible?

Depends on the dog. Some dogs find their owners very motivating. But I'd guess that few dogs find the mere presence of their owner to be the most motivating thing in the world.

You get the best recall (IMO) by using the best rewards, and the dog gets to pick what the best rewards are. So if your dog likes biting toys more than just your mere presence, for example, I'd be using the toys to build the recall.

[Aidan]

Ok so most people are of the opinion that 100% is impossible, correct?

100% of what? The issue is that we don't always get to define the scope.

[corvus]

I just seriously doubt that it's only a prey drive issue. My girl has a high (high high high) prey drive, as do most working line mallies, and also a very good recall - it's getting better all the time, and we're aiming for 100%. So the difference can't just be an intense prey drive. There must be something else going on with the sighthounds that makes them harder to teach recall to? Are they less biddable? Less pack driven? More inclined to look to their handler for prey drive reward? Or is it simply that we tend to imprint shepherd type puppies on toys that we're holding - rather than imprinting them on a lure off in the distance?

This is one of the reasons why I don't much like talking about prey drive.

The most highly prey driven dog I know is certainly no working line Malinois by any stretch of the imagination. He is lazy, only goes for things he thinks he can get, and has little interest in games of tuggy and whatnot. But I have seen this little 10kg dog rip a hole in a garage wall to get to a possum he knew was trapped there. When he hunts, he is constantly problem-solving. He doesn't have a strong chase drive. He is 7 years old and has recently been taught a Really Reliable Recall. It is a known fact that he will now break off a hunt with the prey in sight to recall. He will, in fact, drop prey he has in his mouth to recall. My thought is that because of his mode/method of hunting, it is surprisingly easy to reach him even when he's off in "about to make a kill" land. He's still thinking. With all that problem-solving he is quite aware of his surroundings even when very focused on hunting.

I don't have any experience trying to teach a hound to recall, but my family had a whippet cross when I was a kid. I once saw her chase a wallaby almost right into me. I had a good 20 seconds of her in sight to scream until I was blue in the face and she didn't so much as bat an eyelid. As far as I could tell she couldn't hear me, but Kivi used to be the same when trying to force small dogs to play with him and now he does hear me in those situations. With practise I think you can increase a dog's awareness of recalls in very arousing situations. I think it is not so much a matter of drive as a matter of awareness.

[corvus]

I think a strong chase drive/low chase trigger is more problematic to recalls than a strong prey drive per se. Once any animal is running things get tricky. They are pretty much committed to some course of action (flee or chase) and my feeling is it's hard to somehow interrupt that level of commitment. I don't think the level of engagement in prey driven activities is where the difference lies. I think it is in what the dog was bred for.

I read a paper a while ago about Elkhounds attacking sheep. The point was made (suggested?) that dogs bred to hunt small game didn't pay a lot of attention to sheep, whereas dogs bred to hunt large game didn't pay so much attention to small game.

[Bjelkier]

Thats all very interesting, its given me something to think about.

I might be better off saying my Lab has 99.9% recall :cool:

Thanks guys

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

Some of you need to learn more about "conditioned responses". Basically once you have that, the dog can't help itself, it's not something it thinks about "got something better to do right now", it just does it.

However 100%? - what if the dog has a broken leg? or is tangled? or tied up? can't hear/see the signal because of the train or fire or thunderstorm? what if something you never thought of?

The highest reward in a dog's world is something it values highly, is very pleasurable, and is hard to get.

I'm highly valued and have excellent fingers, and source of all food but I'm pretty easy to get.

Beef chip or (someone else's) smacko strip - hard to get, highly valued, much chewy pleasure. She works a bit harder for that than for me alone.

And I know I could get better results if I was harder to get. She understands if she doesn't come, I'm going to make myself hard to find so she does come when I give the "I really mean it" recall signal. Trouble is I don't trust the reliablity of it enough to hide in a tunnel if she nicks off on an agility course. Especially when there are a squillion other dogs and people and courses there, so I took the option of herding her away from causing disruption to others and then hiding.

I also don't want to be that hard to get, I like patting my dog.

[Aidan]

Basically once you have that, the dog can't help itself, it's not something it thinks about "got something better to do right now", it just does it.

That's right, if there is a cognitive process it probably doesn't involve weighing up the options.

[anniek]

As the owner of two greyhounds, all I can say is that their recall is good enough for the places I take them offlead. There are however, many many places I would never take them offlead - anywhere near a road for example.

They always come when called (eventually). They know I have called them, but if chasing a seagull at the beach, they won't come back until the bird has flown out of their grasp.

They are both very pack motivated, always looking at me, as I continually "talk" to them as we walk. A quick walk or jog in the opposite direction will have them at my side in no time.

Their recall is more reliable if only one of them is offlead. Together they are more likely to "keep me waiting".

But, as a few of our locals have described them as the most well behaved dogs on the beach I am happy.

Would I trust them 100% - NO.

[poodlefan]

Mrs RB:

Some of you need to learn more about "conditioned responses". Basically once you have that, the dog can't help itself, it's not something it thinks about "got something better to do right now", it just does it.

How would such a response overcome an instinctive response hard wired into the dog, triggered by movement and selectively bred for for generations. That's what you're up against trying to call a sighthound off prey.

I will never be more interesting than a hare to Howard, no matter how hard it is for him to catch one. I've heard all the stuff about "you have to be the most interesting thing there" - try matching a fleeing kangaroo for "interest".

All I can say to those who doubt what the sighthound folk are talking about is spend some time with them. There's a reason very few of us would ever say our dogs have 100% reliable recalls and that's even after a lot of training effort.

[megan_]

Mrs RB:

Some of you need to learn more about "conditioned responses". Basically once you have that, the dog can't help itself, it's not something it thinks about "got something better to do right now", it just does it.

How would such a response overcome an instinctive response hard wired into the dog, triggered by movement and selectively bred for for generations. That's what you're up against trying to call a sighthound off prey.

I will never be more interesting than a hare to Howard, no matter how hard it is for him to catch one. I've heard all the stuff about "you have to be the most interesting thing there" - try matching a fleeing kangaroo for "interest".

All I can say to those who doubt what the sighthound folk are talking about is spend some time with them. There's a reason very few of us would ever say our dogs have 100% reliable recalls and that's even after a lot of training effort.

Agree. I don't think a high prey drive dog will even notice your signal once they are chasing a live prey item.

[Aidan]

Mrs RB:

Some of you need to learn more about "conditioned responses". Basically once you have that, the dog can't help itself, it's not something it thinks about "got something better to do right now", it just does it.

How would such a response overcome an instinctive response hard wired into the dog, triggered by movement and selectively bred for for generations. That's what you're up against trying to call a sighthound off prey.

I will never be more interesting than a hare to Howard, no matter how hard it is for him to catch one. I've heard all the stuff about "you have to be the most interesting thing there" - try matching a fleeing kangaroo for "interest".

This is the problem that Mrs RB hit the nail on the head with - it's NOT about being "more interesting" than the kangaroo. It's about a conditioned response. The dog doesn't weigh up the options, either he is conditioned to respond under those stimulus conditions or he isn't.

How you go about achieving that in a practical manner without devoting your life to it is another matter entirely!

If you want a naturalistic observation, when wild canids hunt in packs they are still very attuned to what their pack mates are doing; i.e 100% of their field of perception is not devoted to the prey and it's pursuit.

[pipsqueak]

Mrs RB:

Some of you need to learn more about "conditioned responses". Basically once you have that, the dog can't help itself, it's not something it thinks about "got something better to do right now", it just does it.

How would such a response overcome an instinctive response hard wired into the dog, triggered by movement and selectively bred for for generations. That's what you're up against trying to call a sighthound off prey.

I will never be more interesting than a hare to Howard, no matter how hard it is for him to catch one. I've heard all the stuff about "you have to be the most interesting thing there" - try matching a fleeing kangaroo for "interest".

This is the problem that Mrs RB hit the nail on the head with - it's NOT about being "more interesting" than the kangaroo. It's about a conditioned response. The dog doesn't weigh up the options, either he is conditioned to respond under those stimulus conditions or he isn't.

How you go about achieving that in a practical manner without devoting your life to it is another matter entirely!

If you want a naturalistic observation, when wild canids hunt in packs they are still very attuned to what their pack mates are doing; i.e 100% of their field of perception is not devoted to the prey and it's pursuit.

May I respectfully ask how many sighthounds have you trained to 100% reliable recall???

[Aidan]

May I respectfully ask how many sighthounds have you trained to 100% reliable recall???

Zero. Why do you ask? You might want to read my post again for some clarification.

[corvus]

Mrs RB:

Some of you need to learn more about "conditioned responses". Basically once you have that, the dog can't help itself, it's not something it thinks about "got something better to do right now", it just does it.

How would such a response overcome an instinctive response hard wired into the dog, triggered by movement and selectively bred for for generations. That's what you're up against trying to call a sighthound off prey.

Theoretically it's as knee-jerk a reaction as chasing a moving object. Hopefully, you practise it more often than you practise racing off after prey animals. As I said before, it works for the uber prey-driven dog I know, even when he's hunting. But the thing is, I reckon some dogs are easier to condition than others. Erik always responds to something that has been conditioned with whipcrack speed. He doesn't give himself time to think. Kivi... not so much. For all that conditioned responses are supposed to be a matter of the dog not actually getting around to thinking about whether to respond or not, Kivi never got that memo. He is a steady dude and reacts to most things slowly. He also doesn't get as excited as Erik. In general, he doesn't pay attention to things the way Erik does. I would say his recall is as conditioned as it's ever going to get in that MOST times he doesn't think about it. But you know, every now and then the head comes up at the recall and that's all that happens. About a month ago Kivi ran off on the hunt for a decaying possum carcass. He was recalled after he had found it and he got as far as recalling about 3 metres before he went "Wait. Dead possum." and went back to it. Erik recalled away from it (twice) and spat it out and left it when told to leave it (twice - in retrospect, throwing the carcass into the swamp was not smart). Kivi has more than a year of practise on both conditioned behaviours over Erik, and has been conditioned far more rigorously than Erik has as well. Erik just hasn't needed that level of repetition. And Kivi's conditioned responses deteriorate FAST if not practised. Erik's don't.

So I don't think it's quite as simple as conditioning. Mind you, it's the best thing we've got.

[pipsqueak]

May I respectfully ask how many sighthounds have you trained to 100% reliable recall???

Zero. Why do you ask? You might want to read my post again for some clarification.

My thinking is that to get a conditioned response in the required circumstance is that to train the response, you have to be at least as interesting as the competing stimuli.

[Aidan]

May I respectfully ask how many sighthounds have you trained to 100% reliable recall???

Zero. Why do you ask? You might want to read my post again for some clarification.

My thinking is that to get a conditioned response in the required circumstance is that to train the response, you have to be at least as interesting as the competing stimuli.

Define "interesting"? I take it to mean what behaviourists call "appetitive" and I don't think that is true. Reliable recalls have been trained with -R, for e.g. I have called my working line GSD off a live rabbit when she knew that all I had was some stable kibble, I doubt that would be as interesting as a live rabbit to her. I doubt any reinforcer that I ever gave her was more interesting than a live rabbit.

But if you take "interesting" to mean "a noticeable feature in the field of perception" then I would agree with you.

[pipsqueak]

Yes, I mean appetitive. Can you explain -R and how you used it to call your dog off the live rabbit. Interested in learning, that's all.

[Aidan]

Yes, I mean appetitive. Can you explain -R and how you used it to call your dog off the live rabbit. Interested in learning, that's all.

Sure, someone might use an e-collar in an escape procedure, for e.g So they press the button, call, then release the button when the dog starts to come. There is no appetitive at all (which is why I used the example). I guess we could say that we are weighing up aversives vs appetitives in this example, though, so other +R examples need to be considered.

My dogs figure out pretty quickly whether I have a reinforcer on me or not. I don't bother trying to trick them any more (although I used to), they have been around long enough to know if I've opened the freezer or fridge or whatever. Yet they still come when I call even when they know I don't have anything to give them. I'm not denying that this would not eventually extinguish, but I don't need to have something "better" on me and I doubt I ever have had something better or even if the accumulated reinforcement history would sum up as something "better" or more "interesting" than chasing wallabies.

Another interesting observation - I can walk one section of some hills I regularly walk and call them off wallabies reliably, yet if we pass through a different section where they have different learning histories they have very poor recalls. Behavioural science accounts for this, it's not a mystery, but I mention it because it's relevant to this discussion and quite a nice illustration, I think, of stimulus control and learning histories.

[SkySoaringMagpie]

Here's the passage I was thinking of from the book Gazehounds and Coursing by MH Dutch Salmon. After praising the Salukis' physical abilities on fox and hare the author says:

The saluki has an independence of mind that may be admirable or infuriating depending on the situation. Their inherent notion seems to be to do as they please and nuts to you. Trying to persuade one that this is not the correct procedure is a tricky business. "Beat some sense into his head" and you'll likely ruin what may be an excellent hound. The saluki will not tolerate high-handedness from anyone. But you can't let them run amok either. A policy of controlled firmness should be implemented from the start.

Salukis are definitely not kennel dogs, either. Their constitutions are tough as nails, but emotionally they can't be treated like a piece of machinery. Treated inconsiderately, the saluki may turn shy or rebellious. And they can be flat contrary too. For example, they hate to be left alone; want to be with you all the time. But once with you they're apt to act like you're not even there! And it seems it's always the saluki that won't come back to the hand of the owner after a course.

Now I like salukis; I wouldn't be without one. And I realise fully that along with that independence comes a lot of native intelligence, and besides aloofness there is some genuine class. They are a one person, or least one family, dog and I like that. But I can't recommend the saluki to the average dog person. Most (people) aren't suitable. You should be what I call a "saluki person". Keep that in mind before rushing off to buy a saluki.

I'd agree with all that, except that at the lure coursing days in Sydney it's usually the Afghans leading their handlers on a merry dance when it comes to recall. If you're curious, the author's view is that the Deerhound has the most admirable temperament of the coursing sighthounds.

EFS

Edited May 4, 2010 by SkySoaringMagpie