Walking On A Lead

[Alfie02]

Hello everybody

This is also posted in the training section but I havent got any replies yet so I thought I would post it here 2........

I need some advice on how to get a 7 month old boxer pup to walk nicly on the lead. He is massive for 7 months and really strong. He is just so excited when he is out on walks and pulls constantly and zig zags in front of you when walking. He also lunges at other dogs when walking past them in a playful fasion but it is scary for the other dogs. He is a truely beautiful and lovely natured boy, but just needs some leash training.

Thanks!

[abby dog]

Hi Alfie. I am definitely no training expert and i can totally sympathise with you. I have a 7 month old german shepherd female and was encountering exactly the same issue. I tried food reward training and was taking her to doggy school in an attempt to avoid negative reinforcement methods but finally resorted to a check chain about a month ago. I am now walking her on a normal collar again for the majority of her walks. This is because she is no longer pulling all the time and is responding to me when I verbally check her with 'heel'. She is definitely not a perfectly heeling dog but I don't want that, I just want her to walk on my left and not trip me over. I am not worried if she is a couple of steps in front either. A number of other changes occurred around the same time so I can't swear it was just the correction she was geting. I had her spayed a month ago and I also put her into a kennel for 1 night trial last weekend. Prior to using the check chain she was always pulling to get to other dogs and people; to play! Before I decided on using the check chain I would make her sit when I saw dogs and people coming and give her food rewards when she behaved well. However this was only good while the food lasted and once she couldn't smell it anymore, or if I didn't give it every time, she would go crazy next time. I walk her morning and night so you can imagine how crabby I was getting. I also started reading about K9pro's 'triangle of temptation' which is linked to a training blog in this forum and although I had been doing something similar when feeding Abby I started using the trigger of 'Yes' and using her food drive. I think this is now carrying over into the walks we have because she is behaving so much better when I use 'Yes' if she is doing the right thing and 'Okay' or 'Free' when she has sat to cross roads etc. Have a look at the training section and find postings by K9pro which might help you as well. Don't take anything I write as gospel; just some reassurance that when you find the right thing for your pup it will seem so much easier to walk him.

[conztruct]

Hi,

As with the other posters - i am no training expert at all. All I can say is that it takes perserverence and positive training to get the result but it can be done. Here's a few things I can think of - I've done it with a few pretty stubborn and silly bull terriers and it's worked - I'm about to start it again with one who seems to think she is a windmill and does all the stuff yours seems to be doing.

1. Start small - just a very short distance and if the dog does it well - reward with a treat. This starts teaching your dog what you are looking for but not overloading them.

2. If the dog pulls or jumps, stop and ignore - reset the dog and try again.

3. Train in small sessions 10mins or so.

4. If you just get totally frustrated - don't do any training and just play a game with your dog.

5. Don't be harsh on yourself for using a check chain - just make sure you only use it as a last resort to correct very bad behaviour - try to get the desirable behaviour with positive methods wherever possible.

The positive reward for desirable behaviours and ignoring the undesirable will help to teach your dog what you are looking for.

6. Remember your dog is still a baby and loves playing so keep things fun and light on.

As I said I'm no expert at all.

There is a book "When Pigs Fly: Training Success with Impossible Dogs" or something like that by Jane Killion - it is a very worthwhile investment about positive training methods and making training fun. I absolutely swear by it and it's pretty cheap online.

Hope it all goes well

[Jed]

OK, he's 7 months old. His brain is the size of a pea, and he weighs 25 kg+. When he is out, he is so excited about it all, he cannot process your commands, and the exciting stimulation he is receiving, so he goes with the exciting stimulation.

Boxer pups need to be trained at 2 - 3 months. If you missed that (or someone else did) you have a problem.

First, he needs to fully understand what he should do. Baby steps.

Buy a check chain. You might manage to train him on a flat collar, but you will probably damage his windpipe in the process.

Learn how to fit the check chain. It should fit comfortably over his head,but not have too much slack. Buy a medium thickness one, not a fine one, and not too heavy. If it is too thin, it might hurt him, which is not what you want, and imho, a very heavy one is not appropriate for a boxer. Don't but it from Woolies, buy it from a good pet shop, and pay a bit more.

Begin in your own back yard. Say "walk" and lead off. If he walks nicely beside you, say "good dog" - not too excited, as you don't want to rev him up. If he pulls, go "uh" and a nano second later give one short sharp jerk (not too hard) on the chain, release immediately. Continue to do that until he walks nicely beside you on a loose lead. Don't punish him with the check chain - use it as a training tool, there is no need t o pull hard, or to continue to pull. Short jerk, immediate release then "good dog". Don't try to pull him backwards. Even if he pulls again after 5 steps, don't keep pulling. Continue with "uh", short jerk, immediate release, "good dog" - even if he manages TWO steps without pulling, he is a good dog.

Short lessons, 5 minutes or so each, as many times per day as you can manage. Reward him too. If he walks nicely, keep saying "good dog" but in a soothing voice.

When he will walk anywhere in the back yard on a loose leash, it is time to take him outside. Tire him out first in the backyard, throw a ball. play tug. If he revs up, take him home, put him on the leash again in the back yard.

Then take him outside. Just for a short walk. Maybe to the corner. Pick somewhere quiet, where there aren't likely to be any dogs he can lunge at. Exactly the same routine. If he becomes over-excited, stop, quieten him, with voice, and begin again. Don't expect to actually go anywhere, be happy if you can get to the corner and back without him getting over excited.

Until he is well behaved, don't take him for long walks. Play with him in the back yard to exercise him, or train him - sit, down etc. so that he has physical and mental stimulation instead of his walks.

Once he sits on command, and he is walking nicely for a reasonable distance, teach him to sit as soon as he stops. Reward him.

It is important with boxers, not to make the reward exciting, or they become excited, and forget what they are doing, at that age. You need to stroke him to reward, and speak to him in a low encouraging voice, not an excited one.

When you can take him out without him pulling like the 6.04 express, see if you can meet some other dogs - you stop, he sits. Of course, he stands up straight away - you go "uh" and sit him again. When he is sitting and quiet, he can meet the other dog. He can walk over to it, as long as he is not pulling.

I'm not much of a trainer, but I've never had a boxer who pulled, and I've trained a lot with this method. And some I've bred who needed retraining

Once he is excited, you can't train, he needs to learn "calm" first. And that's why you are going to begin training somewhere boring, where there is no stimulation.

Good luck. If it doesn't work, ask again. The secret is to brain wash him, so that not pulling is automatic, and he can do all those exciting things he wants to do, without pulling, and if he is calm, he will do it.

it is really important to stay calm, do not lose your temper, do not punish the dog with the check chain - it is a traing tool, not a punishment. He will learn that pulling = uncomfortable, loose = reward and comfort.

this is what you are aiming for. Oh, and don't think this is a very placid boxer - this dog's idea of greeting me is to jump around me in circles - as high as my head and she was as loony as could be. But she is well trained. She's a boxer, she loves to please me, and she learned early on how to do that.

Edited May 4, 2010 by Jed

[persephone]

Excellent post, jed- and may I venture to say that it is a method which could benefit a lot of other dogs !

[Alfie02]

Thank you sooooo much for your help guys, it is so great that i actually have some personal experience and techniques that work to try. Its actually really nice to know that other people have been through the same thing and have come out the other side with a well trained dog . We are going to see him today so will put into practice these techniques. Thank you I am looking forwards to training him!

[corvus]

You could also try looking up silky leash. There are some videos online of the method. The aim is to teach them to respond automatically to gentle pressure from the leash to tell them where they should go. I don't know anyone who has used it, but it's meant to be helpful with excitable pullers.

Clicker training is pretty awesome and can work if you get that reward rate up really high, but I honestly think it's a bit harder to make it work with nutty adolescent Boxers and the like. They aren't always the most aware of creatures. My mum has a Boxer cross that is ridiculous about switching off when she's excited. It's very frustrating. I think maybe the way to go there is a really loud clicker. My distractable adolescent Vallhund responds really well to marker training when on the leash, but he's got the benefit of having been introduced to it very young and also being a pretty aware dog. He would like to be lunging at passing dogs, but when he hears a click he gets distracted from it and comes to me instead. That's pretty cool, as then I can ask him to heel and reward every couple of steps and we are home free. He's doing better and better with exciting surroundings.

Also, Premack can be useful. He can get to sniff or look at stuff if he first does what he's told. Not much help if he just wants to plough ahead like a steam train, though.

I really like long lines because they give your dog more time doing the right thing before they hit the end and start doing the wrong thing. I have a verbal warning "hold up" for when they are about to hit the end and then anchor and let the dog hit the end, then call them back and reward them, reward some more for walking close to me on a loose leash. Steven Lindsay talks about this method in his books, but he also adds a check when the dog is at the heel position to make them aware of that spot. I view it as a shaping exercise. You start off with 5m or so of leash and then gradually shorten it as they get the hang of it all. I've only taught puppies this way, so not sure how it goes with a big adolescent dog.

[Jed]

Corvus, I think it would be more helpful and relevant if, rather than disagreeing on training methods for a breed you have absolutely no experience with, you had refrained from posting.

Your post contains bad advice, and obscure methods which are likely to exacerbate the problem.

My mum has a Boxer cross that is ridiculous about switching off when she's excited. It's very frustrating. I think maybe the way to go there is a really loud clicker.

Your mother's dog is simply badly trained. The reason she wont switch off is because she has never been trained to. Why don't you apply the methods you advocate to her and return and relate your experiences?

I really like long lines because they give your dog more time doing the right thing before they hit the end and start doing the wrong thing. I have a verbal warning "hold up" for when they are about to hit the end and then anchor and let the dog hit the end, then call them back and reward them

Do you have any idea at all, even a glimmer, of the repercussions of doing this with a boxer which already pulls like a train, and is not contained at slow paces? Any idea at all? It certainly will give the dog "more time". More time to be in a flat out gallop and totally unstoppable, he will probably pull the handler over and the amount of force necessary to actually stop him will rip him over backwards or pull his head off.

I would prefer not to be totally disagreeable, but I would hate to see someone, or their dog injured by taking this advice.

Edited May 5, 2010 by Jed

[Jed]

Excellent post, jed- and may I venture to say that it is a method which could benefit a lot of other dogs !

Too right.

I sigh when I see some 35kg 12 month old boxer I bred towing his owner down the driveway in his haste to see me - and I find he does this all the time, despite obedience training etc.

Abby

Prior to using the check chain she was always pulling to get to other dogs and people;

Dogs understand the check chain because the act and the reaction are almost immediate. It doesn't pull and annoy as a flat collar does on a pulling dog. Dogs pull because they haven't learned otherwise, and imho, treats etc don't work so well at this time, because there is too much sensory input. Unfortunately, dog owners now think check chain = nasty punishment, but used correctly, it isn't punishment at all.

I train my pups on a flat collar, and before that, I teach them to lead without a collar or lead. When they follow, stop and start, I put a flat collar on them and train them with that. So the question of pulling never arises, and by the time they are big enough to be a problem, they don't pull, so there is no problem. (gee, that's Irish )

When I walk my dogs, they wear a flat collar or a loosely fitted soft web martingale collar - and like your dog, they might be a step in front, or a step behind, but they never walk in front of me, and I can go for a nice stroll with the dog.

They wear slip leads or chokers in the ring, of course.

With an older dog, it's easier on handler and dog, I think, to use a check chain for early training. And if the dog is very strong, or doesn't understand at all, go back to basics and teach in a confined boring space.

He'll soon be all good on a flat collar, and like your dog, if trained correctly, he wont pull at all, so walks will be enjoyable for both.

To the OP - one of the problems with pulling, jumping or out of control boxers is that when they were little, their funny ways, jumping up, being silly was rewarded. Boxers are pretty clever, and they do love to please their owners ... not as a Border Collie does though. By the time they reach 7 months, and they have exhibited exited behaviour all that time, they consider it to be what you actually want.

So what you are doing intially, is training him out of excitable behaviour, so he will listen to you. Hence "brainwashing". A very wise boxer breeder said to me many years ago "never raz a pup. Treat him gently and affectionately. That's what he needs and wants. When he is about 2, you can raz him all you like. He'll love it, but he will understand by then to be calm". She was right.

I treat all my boxers like this, they learn their lessons before there is any nonsense. When they understand "calm" - no matter what they are doing, I know I can raz them without repercussions.

Edited May 5, 2010 by Jed

[corvus]

Corvus, I think it would be more helpful and relevant if, rather than disagreeing on training methods for a breed you have absolutely no experience with, you had refrained from posting.

Um, hello, I didn't disagree with a word you said.

As for the long line method, the aim is certainly NOT to let a dog run full tilt to the end and I apologise if that was the impression I gave. Thought it was kinda obvious that you wouldn't do that, but maybe not. The aim is to get them practising the feeling of a loose leash. You wouldn't give them enough long line to build up enough momentum to give you a run for your money if that's what they were likely to do. I've had the odd moment where a dog has taken off on a long line and the beauty is you have a good 3 seconds or so to get ready, check the ground in front of you for obstacles, and then you move with them to slow them gently. Obviously if the dog is too big for that you don't use that method. It's not rocket science.

Anyone who wants to know more about that method can go look it up in Steven Lindsay's book online. He goes into more detail than I ever would on a forum.

Edited May 5, 2010 by corvus

[Jed]

Corvus, I think it would be more helpful and relevant if, rather than disagreeing on training methods for a breed you have absolutely no experience with, you had refrained from posting.

Um, hello, I didn't disagree with a word you said.

Covertly, you did, by presenting other methods. From a platform of nil experience

[Aidan3]

Corvus, I think it would be more helpful and relevant if, rather than disagreeing on training methods for a breed you have absolutely no experience with, you had refrained from posting.

Um, hello, I didn't disagree with a word you said.

Covertly, you did, by presenting other methods. From a platform of nil experience

Well I have a platform of experience clicker training Boxers to walk on a loose leash using something similar to the 'silky leash' method. No complaints so far.

So unless someone has specific experience with a particular breed they shouldn't present an idea because it would automatically be an unhelpful, irrelevant, covert disagreement? No breed is that unique, Jed, certainly not the Boxer.

[jackie_a1]

I think all the methods suggested are great advice for Alfie. I personally use check chains but like any method they can be harmful in the wrong hands. Many people object to the choker but that's their opinion.

The choker works wonders for Razor who rarely pulls since using it. Always a slack lead and he's happy to trot beside me. Alfie my puppy Boss is the same he has the worst habit of weaving behind you next to you walks under mine and Razor's legs. I bought him a check chain but it was the wrong size so I have to return it and get a replacement.

[Alfie02]

I am using a check chain for this big guy as myself and his owner agree that a dog of his size and at his level of training needs one to be somewhat controllable :D However, the lady who come and walks him 3 times a week does not 'believe in' check chains so she walks him on a harness and lets him do whatever he wants.....so we are now trying to undo this and get him to walk nicely :D .

Thanks for the opinions and tips everyone

[spottychick]

Hey corvus, I liked your post and thought you made some interesting points based on your own experiences. I'm interested in checking out this "silky leash" idea. I also have had wonderful success using a long "lunge" lead with my out-of-control adopted dally who is now becoming a beautifully mannered member of our family. I'm thinking of bringing in clicker training with him because he does seem responsive to training and I can't say I'm brilliant at it (altho I do okay) so a system like that would be a big help to me.

Personally I don't see any problem with you or anyone else putting in their own thoughts and ideas when someone asks a question like this. Just because someone posts a different idea, I don't see how that means they're automatically implying someone else's idea is wrong!!!???? Cheers

[persephone]

Alfie02 .If this pup is only getting walked a few times a week- he may well be a lot harder to settle A youngster like that needs a session or two of training each day , I would imagine ... what does he do the rest of the time? he would be SO desperate to get going somewhere.... no wonder he pulls :p Is he desexed ? I have only ever had a couple of experiences with entire male boxers- neither of them pleasant .They certainly can be assertive and physically strong.

[Jed]

Corvus, I think it would be more helpful and relevant if, rather than disagreeing on training methods for a breed you have absolutely no experience with, you had refrained from posting.

Um, hello, I didn't disagree with a word you said.

Covertly, you did, by presenting other methods. From a platform of nil experience

Well I have a platform of experience clicker training Boxers to walk on a loose leash using something similar to the 'silky leash' method. No complaints so far.

So unless someone has specific experience with a particular breed they shouldn't present an idea because it would automatically be an unhelpful, irrelevant, covert disagreement? No breed is that unique, Jed, certainly not the Boxer.

No, but they shouldn't give advice, even in good faith, which is going to lead to more problems and tears if they have nil experience with the breed. You represent yourself as a professional trainer, so you should know the experience level and the training levels of the dogs referred to in posts on this forum varies greatly. If you have a platform of experience with boxers you will be aware how agile and fast - and strong they can be. And I daresay you have less experience with boxers than I do.

I know exactly what is likely to happen with a large unruly boxer let run to the end of a long line, and so, I am sure, do you. Whether a beginner could retrieve matters, or whether the dog would nick off totally at that point is problematical. Depends on how quick the handler is, and how unruly the dog is.

Aidan, you have experience with clicker training - the op probably doesn't, so first, the op would need to learn about clicker training, and then train the dog. I don't think clicker training is particularly relevant in this case.

Might work for you, but would it work for the op?

Advice should always be targetted appropriately

[Aidan3]

I don't think clicker training is particularly relevant in this case.

I've seen a lot of people learn how to clicker train, in person and on-line. The sample size that informs my opinions is in the tens of thousands. If the OP is a member of this forum they have a more than adequate support base.

That is my opinion, if you have a different opinion then I respect your right to it and will not invalidate it. You attempted to invalidate Corvus' opinion because you believed it to be harmful, but you did not provide anything other than an opinion to support that claim.

[Alfie02]

He is desexed :D , and yes the three walks a week was not very good at all, hence me taking him everyday so he can get all that energy out, which he really really needs :D .

We just took him down the dog park which is usually empty, but there were at least 10 dogs there today so he got to have a nice play with some dogs bigger than him (we dont let him play with the little ones as he is too rough). He was dominant when we first got there but then an entire male Viszla turned up and put him in his place and he then played nicley with everyone .

Have been trying some of the suggestions and he seems to be realising that I want him to do something other than pull on the lead, which is a good start :D .

Thanks guys!

PS. He isnt my dog just so everyone knows, he is my next door neighbours dog, but the woman cant manage him on walks, so we offered to take him . If he was my dog we def would have trained him as a puppy.

Edited May 6, 2010 by Alfie02

[Aidan3]

Good onya, Alfie02, that's a really nice thing to do and it will make a big difference for this dog.