Jumping And Biting - We've Tried Everything

[flux]

My two cents!

I have a rough collie (not nearly as intense as a border, or kelpie) and helped to raise my parents border collie when they had to leave unexpectedly for two weeks.

Both pups did exactly what you are describing. Jazz the rough collie was persistant, Fleur the border was just a little <insert loving yet derogatory term here>!! With Fleur, who decided when we ignored her she would just bite us harder, we did all these:

"1. We yelp 'ouch' or yip/help in a high pitched voice

2. We try saying: "no" in a firm voice

3. We try ignoring him (not easy when he's biting, growling and hanging onto our leg)

4. We stomp our foot on the ground

5. We hold his muzzle

6. We try leaving the room and 'shunning him' - again, not an easy task when you have a growling puppy dog dangling from your jeans tongue.gif"

With Fleur: we notched up the intensity by about 100%. We ended up acting like fools, because when fleur even remotely looked "cheeky" and started to round us up - we would turn and face each other in the garden, showing her only our backs - we got bitten like this a few times (it got worse before it got better, and puppy biting so nothing too serious here) before she just completely gave up. Prior to this moment, we had taught her bite inhibition through yelping very easily and well - so this herding to me was deliberate "oooh I love this game of make the humans exasperated while I dash about all hyper" and through experience yelping only seemed to make her more crazy in her already heightened state - so we gave her nothing. We acted like, her acting as manic herder was the most boring, unimpressive thing there was for her to do and in return we acted very boring and did not react to anything she threw at us. after showing her our back we would slowley make out way, heads down back into the house without her, obviously with each onslaught stopping again. Took us a good week, but cracked her completely - after that we could then work on constructive play and appraisal for not being a manic herder. And obviously as soon as she looked like she had got the message, we praised her very happily but calmly, and always instantly played with her (as best we could without encouraging more hyperness, then we would have to start over again and enforce what we meant).

With Jazz: Jazz was really persistant, and loved hanging onto jeans. We went through your list several times over, and were pretty fed up with her. She seemed to work very differently to Fleur and didn't mind if we ignored her - she just wanted to tear our jeans like a tug toy, so I think she was delighted we held still for her!! (for the record both dogs had plenty of toys, chewy toys and training [not necessarily puppy school but simple things we could teach] going on at this time too) Persistence and continuity paid off with Jazz. We picked one method, which turned out to be ignoring first - then if that failed (see tug toy remark above) we would drop what we were doing and head inside pretty much straight away, kind of with a weird John Cleese walk of holding our legs up high, so she couldn't really grab them and we weren't kicking her either. This took ages!!! Probably weeks, VERY VERY frustrating, and perhaps we never taught her a thing, she might of just grown out of the phase, but it worked. Soon leg tackling became a bit of a chore for her and wasn't as fun as fetch or sitting for treats etc. even remembering now, she would still try "tackling" on even as she got older, after this period, it was a sure sign of a cheeky mood and we just stopped. Now at 11 months she simply doesn't do it, cheeky moods get expressed by stealing socks etc lol. I think with Jazz, we just had to wait her out, be patient and show her we were more persistent with being boring around leg tackles, than she was at trying to make them fun. We had to get all friends visiting on board too, I can remember one friend didn't really get dogs and thought she was funny crash tackling the backs of her legs !!! That is actually possibly why it took us so long, because this one friend put all our hard work back to square one.

So there you go, my two cents - perseverance and commitment! Lots of whinging to humans that will listen and good cups of tea, but to the pup a solid wall of determination that will match theirs! Good luck

P.S - I could never get holding the muzzle to work - Fleur took it as a personal challenge to be more manic as soon as you let her go, and Jazz just looked confused lol.

Edited May 17, 2010 by Flux

[corvus]

There was this lass on another forum who has a manic Flat-coated Retriever that thought biting was the most fun a dog could have. Nothing worked! She bit hard enough to leave bruises. The owner got a trainer in who told her quiet voices, no sudden movements, nice and calm. She was teaching the dog the names of different toys so that when she would get excited she could tell her to go and fetch one for a game. I think redirection is a good approach. You just have to find something that they like to do enough to forget about chewing you.

[koalathebear]

Hi Flux

Thank you soooooooooo much for taking the time to write out such a thoughtful post. So many of the things you described were what we have been seeing in Elbie and the 'remedies' have been what we have been trying with little success....

That being said, Elbie's been HEAPS better these last few days and your words were very comforting and encouraging, particularly these:

"perseverance and commitment! Lots of whinging to humans that will listen and good cups of tea, but to the pup a solid wall of determination that will match theirs! Good luck"

So much of what our puppy is going through is normal and I realise that we just have to be patient and bear with it and do our best to guide him. It's just nice to have someone who has been through it before affirm this and encourage us. It's easy to feel like we've been bad puppy parents and I was a bit freaked out by the thought that we should be seeking behavioural therapy for our poor puppy when he's clearly just going through a phase

Thanks again - I really do appreciate it!

Edited May 19, 2010 by koalathebear

[flux]

No problem, I'm not a dog trainer or behavourist or anything though whereas some people on here might be!

I was just speaking from experience, and yeah I totally had that feeling of "Is it a bad thing to imagine popping her tiny head off her shoulders?" But yeah sit it out, and always keep working on it. Lol when I actually read your post I thought "Oh yeah Jazz did that, I had totally forgotten how annoying and frustrating that was until we learnt how to handle her!" Now I'm much more focused on getting her to ignore other off lead dogs / cats / kids on bikes while she walks - yet another thing I'll have to put heaps of consistent effort in as we learn together! It is lovely though when both human and pup "get it" and your excitement and praise is so genuine and you really do beam with pride! Then they steal your sock...

[Niques]

I have a lab pup who becomes intent on biting when he goes into what you call, "hyper mode" He also throws himself onto the couch (lazy sod can barely climb on when he's behaving normally).

What I've found working the past few days, is holding onto him tight (gripping his mouth shut if he's still trying to bite) until he calms. Generally a minute of that and he snaps out of it and is as normal. If he doesn't, then we go into training overdrive. Lots of commands and rewards for things he knows how to do very well - sit, down, shake, jump, etc. All done in quick succession with a treat you know he'll work for - he doesn't have time to continue his biting and it distracts him/tires him back to calmness.

[ChocDood]

From the pictures you posted, i can see that his behaviour is caused by surfing the net at too young a age He is a real cutey.

You're not alone as my labX is also going through this stage at 3 months old.

[koalathebear]

From the pictures you posted, i can see that his behaviour is caused by surfing the net at too young a age He is a real cutey.

Haha - it's quite possible He's a very inquisitive puppy!

Weirdly enough, his behaviour has settled a LOT over the last few days with a LOT less biting. His high fives and hand shakes have improved a lot and he can finally

and

- 2 tricks we have really struggled to teach him!

My worry is that he's going to be starting to teethe in earnest soon and we'll probably have to go through the biting all over again JUST as he seems to be stopping with the biting!

Edited May 20, 2010 by koalathebear

[4Kelpies]

Hi koalathebear. I just found this topic after reading your other post. If it's any consolation my Cara was a terrible biter as a puppy. All my other puppies had done things according to the text books - they mouthed but could be put off my my yelping and could be distracted with toys etc. Then along came Cara. I thought I must have picked a baby crocodile instead of a Kelpie. When I yelped, she thought I was the most fun squeaky toy she'd ever met and immediately grabbed hold again. If I tried to pick her up and put her in time out she grabbed my hands. I used a squirter bottle and she chased the water. I did all the things I thought I'd never do with increasing frustration and I'm embarrassed to admit with sometimes rougher handling and raised voice. Nothing had any effect and then she reached 15-16 weeks and stopped overnight. She has never looked like biting since (not even when teething and she chewed everything but me.) She has grown up to be a lovely natured girl who can be taken anywhere and never causes problems with people or dogs. Here's hoping Elbie will reach that magical age soon.

[pomchi]

Our puppy is still biting like crazy He has stopped jumping up which is great and when he's quiet/tired, he's also very well-behaved but in his hyper moods he can't stop biting. The crazy thing is that he clearly wants to be close to us - he'll play around our ankles, he'll want to be picked up but as soon as we do - he bites us.

Play stops as soon as he bites but he isn't getting the message

The oy doesn't work, the loud yip doesn't work. Shunning him doesn't work, leave the room immediately doesn't work, saying no doesn't work. Holding his mouth closed doesn't work, putting him outside doesn't work. He is generally very smart and has learned other things like if we tell him not to lick the bin, he backs away etc. He's learned how to do high five, shake hands, beg, sit and drop but he just won't stop biting.

It's very upsetting because especially when they're this small and lovely, you want to be close to them, pat them and cuddle them and that's clearly what he wants to - but he just can't seem to stop himself nipping at us with his increasingly sharp teeth

Koalathebear

I know exactly how you feel my nearly nine week old puppy is gorgeous and when she is tired she is an angel, but when she is excited to chews/bites everything.. constantly for hours on end. she prefers biting your finger,toes and pant legs rather than chew toys. saying no stops her for a moment and then it begins again, if i ignore her she starts jumping and barking. It can be extremely frustrating when you just want her to calm down and stop biting.

have you found any solutions yet?

Edited June 4, 2010 by pomchi

[koalathebear]

I know exactly how you feel my nearly nine week old puppy is gorgeous and when she is tired she is an angel, but when she is excited to chews/bites everything.. constantly for hours on end. she prefers biting your finger,toes and pant legs rather than chew toys. saying no stops her for a moment and then it begins again, if i ignore her she starts jumping and barking. It can be extremely frustrating when you just want her to calm down and stop biting. have you found any solutions yet?

pomchi: To our profound happiness and relief - Elbie's stopped attacking our legs and biting when he's in turbo mode. He is sometimes a little bit bitey and he is still very jumpy when excited but he seems to have dropped the weird behaviour where he went into feral mode and tried to devour our jeans There were a good two weeks when EVERYTHING seemed to remind him of our tasty jeans

We tried all of the other options - yipping, yelping, leaving the room, stopping play, ignoring, holding his mouth closed, distracting him etc etc. We did NOT try biting his ear or snout like some people recommend Our vet's nurse kept telling us to just ignore him but that really did NOT work. The vet's nurse stops him jumping by giving him a treat but Elbie is so food focussed that he will drop ANYTHING if there's food around and we didn't want to have to rely on food all the time.

The solution we used in the end is likely to incur disapproval from many. We used a water spray bottle. When he went into attack mode, we sprayed him in the face with water, trying to make sure he didn't see where the water was coming from. For some dogs this isn't appropriate because:

- they might be shy dogs/very young and a water spray might be traumatic

- they may become savvy to the fact that they can get away with attacking and biting when you DON'T have a water spray handy

We were lucky with Elbie. We think that perhaps he thought that it was all a big game to bite us and the water spray in the face was the only thing that told him: "No, this isn't good behaviour." At any rate, we didn't have to spray him more than a few times before he stopped doing it altogether.

I'd be a bit hesitant about water spraying your puppy right now if it's still so young. Maybe try the other techniques first that seem to work for most other people. I'd only resort to the water spray if you get desperate like we did

[matilda1]

Hi, I'm new around here and just read your thread with great interest as I have a 10 week old ACD puppy.

Firstly I want to commend you on a job well done with your puppy.

It sounds like you have heartfelt dedication and really love him (mind you who wouldn't love such an adorable pup)

Well done on conquring this 'phase'

I'm still waiting for Katie to hit this phase.

She amazingly has not started the whole herding and ankle biting yet, but I am sure it's not far away, so I am arming myself with all the advice I can get in anticipation. We are just starting the jumping up behaviour but we seem to be dealing with it OK.

I have been very very lucky with my puppy so far.

The breeder did a SUPERB job with her when she was very young and she seems a very well adjusted and easy to train puppy so far.

So easy, I keep wondering if there is something wrong. I have a friend who is a dog trainer and she calls Katie the Labrador in the blue heeler jacket as she is so incredibly easy going.

I must admit I did choose her out of the litter as this personality trait was quite obvious when I played with her and the litter mates.

I am sure she will push the boundaries and test the waters at some stage.

Again, I am sorry for the lengthy post, I really just wanted to say

WELL DONE !

[koalathebear]

Hi BellaDonna: It's so nice to meet you. There have been heaps and heaps of lovely people on this discussion forum - particularly in this forum and it's nice to meet such helpful people. Katie is so beautiful. Puppies are so cute when they're in their snub-nosed, roly-poly state! Elbie's getting a lot sleeker and leaner so with a pang, we can feel him leaving his puppy physique behind him - although his behaviour still remains quite puppy-like

It sounds like you have heartfelt dedication and really love him (mind you who wouldn't love such an adorable pup) Well done on conquring this 'phase'

It's my partner's first dog - he's a cat person. For me, I had a lab/bc when I was growing up but I'm ashamed to say that I was like a lot of kids - wanted the puppy but the primary burden probably fell to my parents after the initial novelty wore off. Thereafter, I'd feel him and take him for walks and I attended beginner obedience with him but I never really took the time to try to get to know him and train him properly. He had a good life but mostly he was this mysterious creature who lived in our backyard who was well fed and very healthy - but never really part of the family. That made me feel sad so I made up my mind that I'd try to do better by Elbie and spend as much time with him during his puppy days so that when I have to start going to work again in a month or so - he'll have at least had a solid foundation.

I'm still waiting for Katie to hit this phase. She amazingly has not started the whole herding and ankle biting yet, but I am sure it's not far away, so I am arming myself with all the advice I can get in anticipation. We are just starting the jumping up behaviour but we seem to be dealing with it OK. I have been very very lucky with my puppy so far.

You might be one of the lucky ones! Perhaps Katie will never go through the phase. It was incredibly frustrating for us. One moment we had a lovely, sweet affectionate little pup who just wanted to be cuddled all the time to a bizarre little alien who kept attacking our legs. We could even see the moment coming on, one minute he'd be running around our feet playing with us - his head would turn - he'd stare at our jeans, snark and then attack. We were joking it was some kind of ancient kelpie battle rage ... or if you watch "Legend of the Seeker", it was like Kahlan going into the Con Dar (Blood Rage). Some people were telling us to seek a behaviourist but other people were saying just hang in, keep trying, it will pass - and thank goodness, it did pass

Thank goodness the a few squirts with the water spray let him know that his behaviour wasn't acceptable and these days while we still see his herding instinct kicking in, he keeps it to his toys and doesn't inflict it on us The jumping is something we have been working on. I have to confess sometimes I haven't been as strict as I should because he'll jump up when I'm sitting at the computer but it's clear that he just wants affection because he'll rest his head on my knee and look very cute. Nonetheless, the jumping is bad - for his bones and for his behaviour so we have been praising him when he's not jumping.

I keep wondering if there is something wrong. I have a friend who is a dog trainer and she calls Katie the Labrador in the blue heeler jacket as she is so incredibly easy going.

Don't question, just be thankful! I sometimes wonder if our dog is part labrador because he likes eating soooooooooo much He pretty much inhales his food in - no one ever taught him how to chew.

Again, I am sorry for the lengthy post, I really just wanted to say WELL DONE !

Please don't apologise - your words are really appreciated and it's always lovely to hear from another dog lover I look forward to reading all about the beautiful Katie's exploits.

[matilda1]

Thanks for the welcome KB

[ACD4EVA]

Hi, I'm new around here and just read your thread with great interest as I have a 10 week old ACD puppy.

Firstly I want to commend you on a job well done with your puppy.

It sounds like you have heartfelt dedication and really love him (mind you who wouldn't love such an adorable pup)

Well done on conquring this 'phase'

I'm still waiting for Katie to hit this phase.

She amazingly has not started the whole herding and ankle biting yet, but I am sure it's not far away, so I am arming myself with all the advice I can get in anticipation. We are just starting the jumping up behaviour but we seem to be dealing with it OK.

I have been very very lucky with my puppy so far.

The breeder did a SUPERB job with her when she was very young and she seems a very well adjusted and easy to train puppy so far.

So easy, I keep wondering if there is something wrong. I have a friend who is a dog trainer and she calls Katie the Labrador in the blue heeler jacket as she is so incredibly easy going.

I must admit I did choose her out of the litter as this personality trait was quite obvious when I played with her and the litter mates.

I am sure she will push the boundaries and test the waters at some stage.

Again, I am sorry for the lengthy post, I really just wanted to say

WELL DONE !

Hi BellaDonna,

We have a ACD also but a Red Heeler.

I was wondering if your pup ended up getting to the biting/ nipping stage. Our pup is now 11 weeks old and OMG he has hit the biting stage. I understand that he is a working/ herding breed so I was expecting this to come, but we really need to do something as his little teeth hurt!

At the moment whenever he bites us we tell him 'NO' in a deep firm voice and try directing him off us by giving him one of his toys to play with. But that doesn't seem to be working so he have started putting him in time out, which we slowly have been seeing results as it makes him calm down a little. We did try the water spraying but I think he thought it was a game and would come back for more and try and get the water in his mouth haha Apart from this he is a lovely friendly little pup; he has already learnt to sit. We are quite proud of our little man

Do you have any tricks for this breed to stop the play biting?

Edited November 15, 2010 by ACD4EVA

[Dju]

Hugo is a big play biter as well, ow my hands! It's nice to see that you posted up something that worked, if Hugo persists with this, we might have to resort to using a spray bottle. One question though, you said to make sure he didn't see where the water came from. How do you conceal the spray bottle? Or do you spray him from the back of the head or something like that? It's more often than not that Hugo will be biting my hands, so hiding the bottle might prove a little hard if I need my hand to operate it :D

[The Spotted Devil]

I don't have a mouthy pup but have had them in the past, including an ACD. I put about half of pup's daily biscuit ration in my pockets and reward behaviour I like. Works for toilet training, mouthing, giving up objects she has found (like cat toys), not jumping up, leave command (from shredding older dog's bed), come when called (from chasing the cats or playing with older dog). Sometimes a water sprayer can just hype them up which is the last thing you need with a mouthy puppy! I also make sure I have a toy on hand and redirect pup to play with that. Good luck

[chellz]

Hi everyone, firstly i love this thread.. everyone has their own helpful advice and its good to get a variety cause not one thing works for everyone.. I have a labrador puppy who is 14 weeks and she loved to bite our shoe laces, clothes, hands.. From the start we always told her no in a deep voice and ignored her, if she kept going and didnt listen we would put her in time out and because most dogs love human contact she would yelp and when she calmed down we would take her out and we would see a change in her behaviour.. Like all suggestions here it does take time, i think she has improved alot now but that was 6 weeks of persistence and still she has her bad days, after all they are puppys It was also hard though as i have younger children(3yrs,4yrs,7yrs) i always have to supervise as 'ella; loves biting the kids shoe laces or clothes, then they would react which made her do it more.. so i always had to be there (the funny thing as soon as she heard my voice she knew and stops straight away..cheeky)

Anyway i just wanted to say hi and i liked reading this thread

Edited November 17, 2010 by chellz

[Paul Bright]

Perhaps REALLY ignoring him is your best approach. Turn your back to him when he does it and stay still. Reward BIG TIME when he stops.

Consider how he sees the world and your reactions. Maybe it's along those lines....

I agree. Ignoring your dog when doing inappropriate behavior will do wonders. When he jumps at you for instance you may get irritated but he still gets attention. And that is what he is after. So when you ignore, he learns that what he is doing is ineffective. When he sits and stays however and you reward, he gets attention.

[koalathebear]

At the moment whenever he bites us we tell him 'NO' in a deep firm voice and try directing him off us by giving him one of his toys to play with. But that doesn't seem to be working so he have started putting him in time out, which we slowly have been seeing results as it makes him calm down a little. We did try the water spraying but I think he thought it was a game and would come back for more and try and get the water in his mouth haha

Oh dear. Poor you. I really hope that someone comes up with a solution that works for you because it can be so frustrating when the things that work for everyone else don't work for you. One thing that didn't work for us but worked for a friend of ours with a Shiba Inu was to shake a jar of coins. I know some people don't like this approach but you could try it once to see if it works. Just don't do what we did and put it in a glass salsa jar which smashes because you shake the coins too hard Anyway, I just wanted you to know that I feel your pain and I was soooooooooo happy when Elbie's biting phase finally passed. I am so relieved that our second puppy Hoover isn't a biter. He does a little bit of mouthing but with almost no pressure at all - sometimes he just snaps at the air like a bizarre little snapping turtle.

Edited November 17, 2010 by koalathebear