Jumping And Biting - We've Tried Everything

[koalathebear]

Koalathebear,

I was told hold her head gently in your hands and say "no" but she said "yes" and would bite harder

Hee hee! Thank you soooo much for saying that and your reassuring words of comfort as well. You would not believe the amount of "just do this" advice on other forums we've received as if we haven't tried it. Ignoring/time-out/firm no/high pitch yowl/soulful eye-staring disapproval blah blah.

Each dog is different and each dog responds a different way so that has worked for other people doesn't necessarily work for other dogs. For instance, we spray the garbage bins with the "bitter spray" bought from the pet store and Elbie stands before me and licks at the stuff while staring at me - clearly he likes the stuff he's supposed to hate

The reason that the biting/growing is so upsetting for us is because Elbie's still small - we know this won't last long because he's growing fast and we'd love the chance to be able to cuddle and pet him while he's still small enough for us to do that. It's not made easy when sometimes he has fits of demonic possession. We discourage his biting/jumping, he has plenty of toys, we rotate the toys so he doesn't get bored, we play with him, we give him short obedience training lessons, we praise him when he's quiet and good, we try to use a soothing voice ... The thing that terrifies me is that technically speaking - he hasn't even started teething yet!!!

Someone I know warned us off kelpie/border collies and said that someone she knew in desperation ended up buying a small flock of sheep to keep the dog entertained. That sounded hilariously extreme (and bizarre!) at the time but now we can kind of understand it

Edited May 3, 2010 by koalathebear

[poodlefan]

Someone I know warned us off kelpie/border collies and said that someone she knew in desperation ended up buying a small flock of sheep to keep the dog entertained. That sounded hilariously extreme (and bizarre!) at the time but now we can kind of understand it

This may not all be down to genes KB. Where did you get Elbie from and how old was he?

[Cosmolo]

Corvus- did you start consistent training with Erik right away? I would debate whether his reward history with someone like yourself would be the same as a puppy whose owner doesn't know as much about dogs or puppy raising. I'm not questioning what you did with Erik at all, just suggesting it would be different from what most people would do.

I'm not really sure if we're talking about the same thing either- i am not talking about getting a dog used to handling by grabbing them and waiting till they render themselves helpless. My post relating to handling was a little OT and just made to make mention of the fact that i think handling of pups before owners get them influences the pup significantly- including behaviours like mouthing.

I am more referring to the owner stopping a puppy from doing something, puppy has a wriggle and squirm in response to that, and owner teaching puppy that doesn't mean they can go back to what they were doing- in combination with teaching the puppy precisely what does work. I did this with a puppy on the weekend- 16 weeks old, has been mouthing owners constantly for 8 weeks, no interest in redirected toy until after we stopped the mouthing on the human. Pup then finished the class chewing happily on a toy instead of owners hands- the same toy that 10 minutes earlier puppy ignored.

I disagree that pups grow out of mouthing too- although there are a few that may, many don't- and they continue to mouth as adults.

To the OP- try doing his obedience, when he is in the early stages of drive- so get him a little excited, then ask for a sit etc, rather than only practicing when he is calm. Then you should find you can do what Corvus suggested more effectively over time- asking for a sit, in the early stages of the mouthing, and then directing to a tug toy after that. In the meantime i would still use an effective correction to stop the reward history developing further- but thats just me.

[Cosmolo]

Oh and just to add- you won't need to buy a flock of sheep.. I have 2 working/ herding breeds here including one that spent the first 2 years of their life herding cattle- and they both live happily in a suburban backyard. It takes effort but you will get there.

[koalathebear]

Someone I know warned us off kelpie/border collies and said that someone she knew in desperation ended up buying a small flock of sheep to keep the dog entertained. That sounded hilariously extreme (and bizarre!) at the time but now we can kind of understand it

This may not all be down to genes KB. Where did you get Elbie from and how old was he?

We got our little mongrel puppy when he was almost eight weeks from a private home in Goulburn. He and his brothers/sisters were being given away for free so I suspect that the next step if homes weren't found was the pound He was living in a home with children, cats and other dogs - both his mother and father were there with him. We had 3 nights of puppy crying - we found out later that the seller had allowed the puppies to be taken to bed with her children We took him to a vet almost immediately and the vet says that he was well-fed and healthy and appears very intelligent.

Elbie settled down very quickly to crate training and being house-trained. When we come down at night to let him out for toilet breaks, he sits there very quietly to be let out, goes out to do his business and then scampers back in. When we come home (we haven't left him alone in his crate for more than 2 hours), he will sit there quietly and wait to be let out and doesn't yowl and complain.

Elbie shows no food aggression and waits with suspense but great obedience for his food - we can put our fingers in his food bowl and play with it while he eats without him being troubled. He will wait for his food - so far at least 30 seconds.

He's generally very quiet - at present his only anti-social behaviour arose in the last week and a half or so when he started with the attacking of jeans and socks. To be fair to him, he has had a very traumatic week - last Tuesday, he cut his foot when running outside and had to have two stitches put in - we had puppy proofed the yard and still have no idea how he cut himself! I swear, I only took my eyes off him for a second after he ate his brekky. The vet said that to avoid having to put him under anaesthetic more than we needed to, we should have him desexed and microchipped at the same time. He was not a happy puppy that day and cried a lot until we got him home last Tuesday. It took him a day or so to settle after that but he seems to be back to normal.

Tomorrow night he will attend his first puppy class with 3 other puppies so presumably they will set him straight if he is out of line. He's already very relaxed with cats and doesn't seem bothered by them at all.

He's so eager to learn and play - if we could just get him to quit finding our jeans so attractive he would really be the perfect little buddy ...

Edited May 3, 2010 by koalathebear

[koalathebear]

Oh and just to add- you won't need to buy a flock of sheep.. I have 2 working/ herding breeds here including one that spent the first 2 years of their life herding cattle- and they both live happily in a suburban backyard. It takes effort but you will get there.

Hahaha! Thank goodness! Elbie's adorable and we love him to pieces - but I can't believe how time-consuming this tiny little biting, yowling pooping machine is. I don't think we could cope with sheep Also, it is so hard to find a vaguely definitive view on how to raise a puppy/dog. One place said that we were bad and evil parents for letting our dog run unsupervised in the puppy-proofed yard at 10 weeks, others say we are evil for telling the dog 'no', other people say we are spoiling the dog, some people say the Dog Whisperer is wonderful, others say he is dangerous .... *head explodes*

Edited May 3, 2010 by koalathebear

[poodlefan]

He's so eager to learn and play - if we could just get him to quit finding our jeans so attractive he would really be the perfect little buddy ...

Sounds like he got a better start than many. Sounds like he also needs to be taught self control - as is common in youngsters of all species, their impulses tend to rule them.

I'd be investigating teaching crate games and instituting time out for undesireable behaviour... if he cab be taught that mouthing you or your clothing means GAME OVER.. you may have more success.

Next time he mouths, remove his teeth and leave him. Leave the yard, the room or whereever IMMEDIATELY.

Sounds like he may have a temper (some dogs do) so I'd be very wary of any Cesar Milan style "alphaing" if anyone recommends it.

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

Koalathebear

What the others said.

I suggest yell ouch or say "bah" in a normal voice

and then turn your back on the puppy as long as it takes for him to notice. No eye contact, no talking, tuck your hands under your arms so he can't get to them. The second he stops jumping or lets go, praise. A "charged up" clicker and yummy treats or tug rope might help with this.

Try to disengage puppy with a "leave it" and then push his own lip on his teeth until he lets go, and praise like you won big in lotto when he does.

Try to give puppy something else to do, like sit or drop and only give attention when he's sitting nicely.

I suggest teach him "leave it" and reward with a yummy treat or tug on rope game when he lets go our trouser leg. "Leave it" is very useful when he decides he wants to round up a car, or a bike or a jogger.

I am wondering how he can continue to dangle off your leg when he's shut in his crate or safe zone (laundry with nothing to destroy).

Put taste-yuk on the bits of you he bites. Should be able to get some really bitter stuff from equestrian supplies called "Crib stop" or similar.

Vicks vapour rub might work. Large doses are bad for dog, but hint of smell should be effective without being too toxic.

Chilli will only lead to a dog that likes the taste of chillis. I've got me one of those. Oops.

I also use squirty bottle as a distraction. A pump up one with a long continous squirt is best. You don't need to hit the dog directly. My dog likes to chase the water, and that's a good distraction / displacement activity.

I have the most grovelly non threatening dog ever and she loves playing tug.

As part of playing tug we practice: "take" "hold" "pull" and "give", getting the tug back involves tickling under her chin as I say "give", and then I let her have it back "take". And if she wins the game of tug, she always brings it back for more, because tug by yourself is not as much fun as tug with a friend. There is no dominance or aggression issues. If she misses the tug and gets my hand, we "bah" and do a 3 second ignore, no eye contact, turn my back on her, no talking. And if she's good we start again.

I've got my farm dog bitza doing agility now after a year of tedious obedience training, and it's so worth it. She loves jumping stuff. Work on recall with yummy treats, and leave it with yummy treats, and try clicker training. Practice a recall and a sit stay before he's allowed to eat every night. Start off with really short stay times, and recall of 1m on lead, and gradually build up, one factor at a time, ie work on distance or time but not both at once.

http://www.clickandtreat.com/Clicker_Train...r_training.html

http://www.k9pro.com.au/pages.php?pageid=52

Good luck. Kelpie x can be very demanding. The theme for our previous family dog was

"Your wish is my command", "Your wish is my command..."

"I Command you WISH me NOW"...

[corvus]

Corvus- did you start consistent training with Erik right away? I would debate whether his reward history with someone like yourself would be the same as a puppy whose owner doesn't know as much about dogs or puppy raising. I'm not questioning what you did with Erik at all, just suggesting it would be different from what most people would do.

I don't really remember, Cosmolo. I do know that it took time to hit on the sit and slow "heel" to the nearest toy. I don't remember how long, but it wasn't the way I started out. I would in future, though! It worked quite well, and Erik's sits were easily strong enough at 11 weeks. Having said that, I have pretty high tolerance for bratty behaviour. Erik was bad, but my memory of just how bad is hazy now that he has grown out of it. I have a feeling I tolerated it where other people wouldn't have, and I don't think it's wrong to not tolerate it. People just have different levels of tolerance is all. We don't have kiddies and Erik is quite reserved with strange people, so we can afford to be tolerant.

I am more referring to the owner stopping a puppy from doing something, puppy has a wriggle and squirm in response to that, and owner teaching puppy that doesn't mean they can go back to what they were doing- in combination with teaching the puppy precisely what does work.

I'm not sure exactly what you mean by that. I was just talking about restraining a pup when they are struggling. It doesn't really matter in what context that occurs to me. If you take a pup by the collar and they throw a tantrum, then you basically have to hold on and wait it out, but that doesn't mean it was a good thing to do. It's no better IMO than holding a puppy until they give up the fight to get them used to handling.

I disagree that pups grow out of mouthing too- although there are a few that may, many don't- and they continue to mouth as adults.

Did I say that? In case I did, Erik did grow out of mouthing, but Kivi didn't. Kivi is the only dog I know that still mouths as an adult, though. He has amazing control. He hoons around the dog park with the tip of Erik's tail in his mouth and Erik doesn't even know about it. He mouths considerably less now than he did as a puppy, even so.

Thanks for reiterating what I said in your own words, PF?

Mrs RB, you do know that pressing a pup's lip against their teeth hurts them, right? There are plenty of aversives or interruptors you can use that don't depend on hurting puppies. You can even train a positive interruptor. The clicker can be used as an interruptor.

[tarope]

Hi Koalathebear,

My GSD girl was also hyperactive, which she still is at 7 yrs of age. She wouldn't stand still to be brushed, I had to wear gloves so she wouldn't bite me :D the bitting stopped at about 5 to 6mths. Wouldn't come when called, no matter what I did. Jumping wasn't a big problem if she did, I'd turn my back and say no and she soon got the message.

She started obedience training with the GSDL at 4mths and was the worst one there, wouldn't do anything except be a little monster who grew into a big monster. :D

Then all of a sudden at about 15mths I noticed a big difference in her, she started to mature and from then on I couldn't wish for a better dog. She was raised with TLC and at no time did I hit or punish her for being normal. :p

My GSD boy who is very calm was never a biter and won't even chase a ball or play tug o war, unlike my girl.

He was an angel, till about 14mths then he started to pull the clothes off the line and rip up door mats buckets etc.

The worst thing was how stubborn he became, he'd sit in the yard and I'd say come in now and he'd just sit there and if I went near him he'd just fall over so I had to get the lead to bring him inside. :D This lasted till he was 3yrs old, which is when he matured. He is now 7.5yrs and a beautiful loving boy. I must say how easy it was to house train both my GSD's thank God. :D Anyway I hope this has helped you, all the best with your boy.

[Jaxx'sBuddy]

my pupy did this for a while so as soon as she touched my feet or jeans i stopped and did not move until she got distracted with something else, i used to throw a treat away from me so she went to get it (i always kept treats in my pockets. then i praised her.

this worked well for her. i think it is the movement that excites them and they have no self control. so we have to show them what to do.

oh and a loud Oi!!!! did the trick as well

Edited May 3, 2010 by Jaxx'sBuddy

[koalathebear]

Our puppy is still biting like crazy He has stopped jumping up which is great and when he's quiet/tired, he's also very well-behaved but in his hyper moods he can't stop biting. The crazy thing is that he clearly wants to be close to us - he'll play around our ankles, he'll want to be picked up but as soon as we do - he bites us.

Play stops as soon as he bites but he isn't getting the message

The oy doesn't work, the loud yip doesn't work. Shunning him doesn't work, leave the room immediately doesn't work, saying no doesn't work. Holding his mouth closed doesn't work, putting him outside doesn't work. He is generally very smart and has learned other things like if we tell him not to lick the bin, he backs away etc. He's learned how to do high five, shake hands, beg, sit and drop but he just won't stop biting.

It's very upsetting because especially when they're this small and lovely, you want to be close to them, pat them and cuddle them and that's clearly what he wants to - but he just can't seem to stop himself nipping at us with his increasingly sharp teeth

Edited May 16, 2010 by koalathebear

[Jaxx'sBuddy]

Our puppy is still biting like crazy He has stopped jumping up which is great and when he's quiet/tired, he's also very well-behaved but in his hyper moods he can't stop biting. The crazy thing is that he clearly wants to be close to us - he'll play around our ankles, he'll want to be picked up but as soon as we do - he bites us.

Play stops as soon as he bites but he isn't getting the message

The oy doesn't work, the loud yip doesn't work. Shunning him doesn't work, leave the room immediately doesn't work, saying no doesn't work. Holding his mouth closed doesn't work, putting him outside doesn't work. He is generally very smart and has learned other things like if we tell him not to lick the bin, he backs away etc. He's learned how to do high five, shake hands, beg, sit and drop but he just won't stop biting.

It's very upsetting because especially when they're this small and lovely, you want to be close to them, pat them and cuddle them and that's clearly what he wants to - but he just can't seem to stop himself nipping at us with his increasingly sharp teeth

but have yiu tried keeping treats in your pocket and throwing the treat away from you when he is nipping?

oi wont work on its own

[koalathebear]

He is so food motivated that if he sees treats, he will immediately stop biting or whatever it is he's doing but we don't want to be inadvertently rewarding his bad behaviour by giving him treats after he has bitten us. He's still playing because his tail is wagging but we really want him to stop with the biting. We tired him out with running around the backyard and lots of short sessions of obedience training but he still has tremendous energy during the day even though he becomes angelic at night when he's sleepy.

He's otherwise a pretty well-behaved puppy, all things considered. Just a little biting machine, unfortunately. For reference, his shake hands and high five are

and his ability to wait patiently is

. He is smart! He just won't stop biting

The 'oy' is usually combined with us attempting to walk away while a puppy hangs onto us with his teeth.

Edited May 16, 2010 by koalathebear

[Jaxx'sBuddy]

then you are teaching him oy means hang onto the clothing or bite and if you keep moving it is a great game for the pup. you need to treat before the pup bites and stop walking as soon as teeth touch clothing. if you watch you will know when it will happen.

this will not stop on its own. maybe get a behaviourist in to help you stop this happening

[wuffles]

He is so food motivated that if he sees treats, he will immediately stop biting or whatever it is he's doing but we don't want to be inadvertently rewarding his bad behaviour by giving him treats after he has bitten us. He's still playing because his tail is wagging but we really want him to stop with the biting. We tired him out with running around the backyard and lots of short sessions of obedience training but he still has tremendous energy during the day even though he becomes angelic at night when he's sleepy.

I wouldn't worry too much about this, dogs don't really learn this way. Do you clicker train? If you can reward him at the right moment (a clicker helps with this) I don't think you'll have a problem. They know they're getting rewarded for what they are doing at that point in time, not what was leading up to it. It's the same as when you are leash training - when they hit the end of the leash, wait until they loosen the leash and look back at you - treat. It would be rare for the pup to think that going to the end of the leash gets them a treat

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

If he already knows to stop biting when there is food to be had, use that to your advantage.

In the same way you train sit and stay, train "gentle" ie when he bites, tell him gentle, when he stops give him a treat, tell him gentle.

Clickering will help.

It would be similar to how you teach "quiet", ie first you teach dog to speak, and treat for that, and then treat the bark free times for quiet.

So he's biting. you tell him "gentle" he stops biting while he tries to figure out what you want him to do, count to three, keeping very still and then say "gentle" or click or both and treat.

You also need to be much more persistant. Ie dog bites, on the floor no reward.

And you may want to think about whether you really want something that is going to be as big as a kelpie/bc in your lap. Start as you mean to go on.

There would be one exception - claw trimming, best done with dog calm upside down in your lap. I found clicker training great for this. Although I started using the guillotine clipper as the clicker. Break it down into little steps and reward each one.

You sit on the floor dog jumps all over you. Good but not great, it's not running away but it's not calm. A first step.

you tell dog to drop in your lap - click (with clipper) and treat. I usually lean against the wall or couch and have the treats behind me.

from the drop position, you tell the dog to "roll over" - guide with treat, click and treat.

You might want to reach roll over when you're not on the floor at first.

and then you teach the dog to "relax" or be "calm" ie only treat for roll over with mimimum wriggling.

And then you hold each paw and click and treat for calm no pulling away, start with tiny steps ie short short time and build up.

and then while you hold the paw, you touch a claw with the clicker...

this takes quite a while, weeks, one session, one target behaviour, and thirty treats (count them out ahead of time - when you run out of treats, session is over) and will get you plenty of close cuddle time with your puppy.

If he bites, tell him "gentle" and treat when he lets go, make sure there is about three seconds between letting go and good dog/click and treat, so he associates not biting with the treat instead of biting with the treat - timing is everything. Use a neutral toned "no" or "bah" to let him know when he's not going to get a treat - like playing the game of hot and cold, - "bah" is "cold", "good"/"yes"/"click" is "hot".

Have you taught him "leave it"? is also very handy for getting him to stop biting the lead, another dog, yourself, barking at the neighbours. I guess for my dog it just means stop whatever and come and get a treat. Although the timing of "good dog" (click) means she also knows it means let go that other dog's collar but you can keep playing if you want. Ie the play can be the reward. Failing to let go collar means she's going to get the lead on, which she likes to avoid (unfortunately).

And remember any kind of attention is a reward for the puppy. The louder and more energetic the better. And any kind of tug/chase game is a reward too. Use this for you not against you. If any behaviour is continuing or getting worse, think very carefully about what you're doing during/immediately after that is being seen as encouragement by the puppy. It might not be your idea of encouragement.

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

oops, double post. Slow computer fast clicker.

Edited May 16, 2010 by Mrs Rusty Bucket

[furballs]

I have a pure border collie and she was an absolute b*&%$# for the first few months. She used to bite my face, made my lip bleed a few times. I tried everything under the sun that you are supposed to do. In the end, I bit her on the snout until she yelped when she did it to me, she never did it again. Every now and again she snaps but she is very obedient now and all I have to do is growl at her. I presently have a kelpie x pup (10 weeks old) which I'm fostering (she looks just like yours) and she is very jumpy. I won't open the door until she sits and stays. When she does this I lavish her with praise. I have tried ignoring her jumping up at me and it doesn't work. Now I growl like a dog and she immediately stops. I pretty much don't pay her any attention unless she's behaving how I want her to and give her heaps of pats, kisses, playing when she's doing the acceptable thing. Working dogs do have instinct, but we need to direct them in how and when to use that instinct.

I always mix my dog training by using discipline and reward.....I have always ended up with great dogs doing this.

Good luck

[Cosmolo]

I think you need to look at seeing an experienced trainer to help you resolve this issue if you haven't already, before the habit becomes more ingrained.

Whereabouts are you located?