Jumping And Biting - We've Tried Everything

[koalathebear]

We have a new puppy named Elbie. He's 3/4 kelpie and 1/4 border collie. You can see photos of him here. We think that he's absolutely adorable. He's very clever. At almost 11 weeks, he can sit, drop, wait for his food (see

). He's now toilet-trained and goes to the toilet on command and sleeps very peacefully at night in his crate.

He will start puppy classes on Tuesday and formal obedience classes in June. The problem we are having with him right now is that although we do our best to run him around the yard and tire him out, when he goes into turbo mode, he becomes very jumpy (jumps up on us), growley and bitey - he bites our jeans, socks and toes. We have tried everything:

1. We yelp 'ouch' or yip/help in a high pitched voice

2. We try saying: "no" in a firm voice

3. We try ignoring him (not easy when he's biting, growling and hanging onto our leg)

4. We stomp our foot on the ground

5. We hold his muzzle

6. We try leaving the room and 'shunning him' - again, not an easy task when you have a growling puppy dog dangling from your jeans

We know that it's normal for puppies of this age to be bitey and his tail is wagging when he's growling/biting/barking but it's still very unsatisfactory behaviour.

This is him biting on our jeans:

This is him when he's well-behaved

It's starting to get frustrating because everyone is giving us advice under one of the above 6 categories just because it worked for them, but it really isn't working for Elbie. Ignoring really doesn't work when you have a dog jumping all over you and biting.

Edited June 4, 2010 by koalathebear

[Kavik]

Do you have toys that he is allowed to chew? You could try redirecting him to appropriate toys when he tries to bite you. Sounds like he may be a good candidate for training in drive! You could get some tug toys and teach him to tug on those instead of you and your clothes.

[koalathebear]

Do you have toys that he is allowed to chew? You could try redirecting him to appropriate toys when he tries to bite you. Sounds like he may be a good candidate for training in drive! You could get some tug toys and teach him to tug on those instead of you and your clothes.

He has some chew toys that he loves but for some reason they only distract him momentarily and then his returns to chewing his favourite thing - us We even put away a lot of his toys and 'rotate' them so that they remain novel and he doesn't get bored of them. When he's in 'calm' mode, he's fine and just licks and gums at us, it's trying to get him out of the turbo mode that we're really having difficulties with.

[Kajtek]

Perhaps REALLY ignoring him is your best approach. Turn your back to him when he does it and stay still. Reward BIG TIME when he stops.

Consider how he sees the world and your reactions. Maybe it's along those lines....

I am wonderful, I am smart, I want to learn, Everything is so much fun.

I love my people soooooo much. They yip and make a funny sound NO when we play.

Maybe that's part of the game?

Edited May 2, 2010 by Anna

[persephone]

we do our best to run him around the yard and tire him out

you have a pup whose genetics on both sides tell him to RUN, to HERD, to try and get the things running away under control!! he has little legs, and cannot out run you- so he grabs .

If you really want to tire him out- do 5 minute obedience sessions in the yard 2 or 3 times a day ... just walking nicely onlead.. doing a couple of sits, and recalls...

Will he chase a ball? Maybe get him a soccer ball ... not tightly inflated, but fairly solid... let him chase/roll that around the yard.

Whenever you speak to him- keep your voice calm and quiet. DO NOT RUN around with him do not rev him up with toys etc.. or praise in that silly squeaky voice humans find when they talk to kids/puppies.

Anytime he is resting nicely- then calm physical and vocal praise .. but STOP if he gets wriggly.. just turn away and ignore.

Be calm and matter-of-fact and steady..... it's a good way to start

How I stop this behaviour is probably not "the done thing" ..but it usually only needs to be done properly once- maybe twice...

when pup latches on-- and with no speaking or extra movement, or eye contact--- quickly grab him by the scruff - ONE shake, and a loud, growly "GRUFF" , then I ignore for a few minutes.I praise if he is calmer and leaves me alone If it happens again... immediately- I repeat it ...but most times I just need to "Gruff" , as a reminder of the consequence :D

This is similar to what an adult dog would do...

Edited May 2, 2010 by persephone

[Primedogs]

I had this problem when my pup was younger, in the end when ever we went outside which was where the jummping/nipping/clothes tugging was mostly happening we had a water spray bottle in reach and treat in our pocket. So when ever he jumped up and went to grab onto clothing he got a spray, and as soon as all feet where back on the ground and his mouth wasn't full of us he would get a treat, or as soon as he let go after the spray we asked him to sit/drop then treated, as soon as he had finished the treat he was quickly directed to more suitable play.

WE tried the ignoring him too, but it was afully hard to ignore, and my younger sister wasn't able to ignore it, so we tried this method and after awhile his behaviour stopped and now if he looked like he was going to miss behave we can normally get in first with the sit/drop and distract him

[dandybrush]

look i have never raised a working dog breed before Raz, my koolie x and i have found the best advice i have ever been given is time outs.

if he barks and i say enough and he keeps barking he gets a time out, if i tell him to leave something and he goes to it anyway he gets a time out...lets just say he doesnt get many time outs these days cause he knows what the result of not obeying is...

when he was little and he used to bite i would pin him down (like a mother dog, by grabbing the scruff of his neck) and growl at him, then ignore him for about 5 mins...that seems to have worked he knows not to bite now. jumping basically was the time out penalty, he jumped time out, got released jumped again got another time out...he hasnt jumped since. hope that helps

[dandybrush]

i just want to say also that you must reward the correct behavious...that way he will offer it again. when raz was little i would just reward randomly during the day when he was lying calmy anywhere in the house. so thats what he does all day now lol is just relaxes whereever i am. when we have visitors he still gets excited so i have to tell him to leave it...or he gets a time out cause i find him to be quite pushy sticking is nose at pple for a pat (not everyone likes that) so he is getting better and learning to be calm around visitors...slowly

[poodlefan]

KB:

The problem we are having with him right now is that although we do our best to run him around the yard and tire him out, when he goes into turbo mode, he becomes very jumpy (jumps up on us), growley and bitey - he bites our jeans, socks and toes

How are you encouraging him to run?

You've got yourself a working breed mix. He's only going to need more mental and physical stimulation as he grows.

It's great that you're going to go to training. As has already been suggested, taxing him mentally will tire him out faster than any amount of running.

Bear in mind he's a baby and you have to be careful not to overtax his growing bones. Teach him tricks, give him toys he has to work to gain reward from and keep the training going.

Edited May 2, 2010 by poodlefan

[koalathebear]

Thanks for all the replies and suggestions. Much more helpful than having people telling us to do exactly what we've been doing without any success

1. The way we run him around the yard is to toss his chew toys ( he has a cloth rope chew toy and a frisbee) - he chases after them and brings them back NEAR us. He hasn't mastered fetch yet so we generally have to wait until he accidentally drops the toy - we refuse to play tug of war with him because we think that's just encouraging him to be aggressive. He can keep himself occupied for ages just chewing on his chew toys and chasing around after them.

2. We put aside a portion from each of his meals to serve as 'motivation' treats and we have short 'training' lessons with him in which he practises sitting/dropping/sitting on a mat etc. He is doing very well and appears to enjoy these a lot and is even doing the commands when there is no food for motivation.

3. The cutesy voice is hard to get rid of because he is incredibly cute but we are trying to get rid of it. We do praise him for sitting there and being good - the problem is, sometimes just praising him and calling him a good dog is enough to make him excited and lose his cool.

4. When we have time outs and leave the room, he whimpers so it seems that he knows that he's done something wrong - but when he gets excited, he just starts his biting and growling all over again.

So far he does not like his lead at all and just chews on it as though it's another toy. We don't like to put him on it much because he just tugs on it unless we have treats to bribe him

Edited May 2, 2010 by koalathebear

[Cosmolo]

Congrats on your new puppy- i think the following is really important.

- Not playing tug is disadvantageous if you have a pup with plenty of drive, and you clearly do. Playing tug will not create dominance or aggression issues and we need to just ensure we teach what items to tug on and how to give. Dogs learn to differentiate really well, so if you are clear, this won't be a problem. Why play tug? Because it means you have a reward that stays on you rather than throwing it away like a fetch game, and most importantly because you simply have to provide an outlet for your pups drive.

- I would seriously consider a water spray or time out as a correction- there are other techniques that i think work very effectively but they really should be shown, not explained online. Ignoring is unlikely to work because the puppy is having a great time anyway- he doesn't need any attention from you to be having a ball tugging on your clothes or limbs! The other issues with ignoring mouthing is the extinction burst that follows- the behaviour gets worse before it gets better and at that point, its simply too difficult for everyone (including children, older or more sensitive skinned people) to be consistent. Once you have given the 'correction' 20-30 seconds later, or immediately upon releasing from the time out room, redirect to a toy.

You need to teach him how to control himself when he is excited- starting by getting him a little excited, and then settling him- either through manipulating a toy or food reward (removing it when he jumps or tried to mouth, and then giving it to him when he offers you a stand or sit) OR taking him by the collar and holding him until he settles- he may have a tantrum and if he does, you have to follow through and calmly wait until he settles.

- Put his lead on, soak it in crib stop first to stop him chewing on it and let him get used to moving around with it- clip it on and walk him to his dinner bowl or favourite toy.

In saying all of that- a one on one session with a good trainer would be very beneficial for you.

[Clyde]

we had a water spray bottle in reach and treat in our pocket. So when ever he jumped up and went to grab onto clothing he got a spray, and as soon as all feet where back on the ground and his mouth wasn't full of us he would get a treat, or as soon as he let go after the spray we asked him to sit/drop then treated, as soon as he had finished the treat he was quickly directed to more suitable play.

This has been our plan of attack too!

[nicolatu]

I have a pure Border Collie puppy and he is really full on. What I do with him is that I try to keep him calm. I take note of when he is getting excited and stop play before that. That really helps a lot.

I praise and reward him whenever he is calm and just sitting around. My dog trainer in puppy school told us to massage and talk to them in calm voice so they won't get excited. I found that if I talk to him in a calm voice, he will be calm.

I also do a lot of training with him to tire him out.

Do you have Kong for him to bite? Its very self-rewarding because whenever the dog chews on it, food comes out. It worked for us. I also bought a lot of "chewy" food for him to chew.

Hope that helps.

[Kavik]

Congrats on your new puppy- i think the following is really important.

- Not playing tug is disadvantageous if you have a pup with plenty of drive, and you clearly do. Playing tug will not create dominance or aggression issues and we need to just ensure we teach what items to tug on and how to give. Dogs learn to differentiate really well, so if you are clear, this won't be a problem. Why play tug? Because it means you have a reward that stays on you rather than throwing it away like a fetch game, and most importantly because you simply have to provide an outlet for your pups drive.

Yes playing tug and teaching him the rules of the game is very useful - gives them an outlet for their drive, helps teach self control, gives you a GREAT reward for training and is FUN!

[corvus]

Aww, he sounds like heaps of fun! I remember when Erik was like that. You should have seen him when I started wearing sheepskin ugg boots come winter. He could not resist them! He'd bear hug my ankles and try to maul the slippers.

One thing I discovered with my herding puppies is that sometimes when you stop as soon as they start biting it's a reward for them. That's what they wanted you to do. Their instincts tell them to stop the moving object. Biting worked! It wasn't until I realised this that we started to make some real progress with Kivi's ankle biting. I figured if he wanted to grab something so bad I'd get a toy for him to hold onto. That seemed to satisfy him, mostly. I could run around the oval with him and he'd hold onto the toy instead of my leg. Erik was a bit of an ankle-biting monster. With him he would just get so wound up that he couldn't contain himself and would just have to grab something. I taught him a really strong sit. Whenever he got crazy and looked like he was about to go for my ankles I told him to sit and that would interrupt him. Then I'd tell him to heel and walk slooooooowly to the nearest toy, ask for a sit again, then throw the toy for him. He grew out of the ankle biting, but man, he was a little terror for a while there. A couple of times he would bite so hard you'd just have to grab him in the interests of keeping your skin intact.

I'm not keen on punishment of biting puppies for one big reason, and that is that biting puppies are normally quite aroused and I have seen them react to a punishment in that state by getting growly and biting harder. I've had it happen to me. It's not fun and I don't think it helps matters in the long run. I guess a water sprayer is one of the best ways you could go about it provided the dog doesn't actually think it's fun, but I'd far rather distract and redirect. Plus, it's a good opportunity to practise sits and heels in an aroused state. That rock solid sit came in handy in so many different situations with Erik. I'm in love with rock solid downs as well.

Time outs can sometimes be rough on puppies. Just make sure he isn't getting really upset.

I think holding a dog until their tantrum peters out is just poor training. I've done it myself and regretted it EVERY SINGLE TIME. It's what you do when you've misjudged what your dog can handle and pushed them too far and are now faced with the decision of letting them find out that kicking and struggling works or trying not to get scratched to pieces until they give up. I'm not very interested in basically forcing a puppy to realise they are helpless. I want them to choose to behave, not learn that there's nothing they can do about it so they may as well put up with it. I want them to believe they can control the things that happen to them so they are confident and get into the habit of trying to figure out what I want from them so they can get what they want.

Massage is excellent and I don't know how we would have got through those early months with Erik without it. It really made a difference. Kongs and pigs ears were also very helpful. Teaching self control is a good idea and it's easy to do it with tug.

[Cosmolo]

Its not about teaching a puppy that they're helpless Corvus- its about teaching them that when you attempt to stop them doing something, and they have a tanty- the tantrum does not work. Its hardly teaching them that they have no control and can't do anything about a situation- its teaching them one element of their behaviour will not achieve their end goal.

You have a puppy who is in drive with the best squeaky toy in the world- a human. For many high drive pups, redirection is not enough ONCE the puppy has learned that biting people gets the desired result. If the puppy has been having a blast mouthing people for a month, how do you convince them to bite a toy instead (that doesn't have the same reward history) WITHOUT stopping them from biting you first? With most puppies that have this kind of reward history, obedience commands won't hold- especially if there has been no training in drive done before.

I respect your opinion corvus, although i disagree- but remember- we are talking about a puppy who already has a strong reward history of mouthing people and dealing with this is very different from dealing with a brand new puppy that is dealt with through redirection as soon as they try the behaviour, every time.

Corvus "I want them to believe they can control the things that happen to them so they are confident and get into the habit of trying to figure out what I want from them so they can get what they want." (sorry i don't know how to quote properly)

I completely agree with that statement- but i don't believe that working through a tantrum or two excludes the above at all- you can do both.

A little OT and not directed at the OP- The other thing many people seem to forget is that how your puppy was handled while with the breeder makes a massive difference to all of these things we are discussing here. There are huge differences between pups from origins where they were handled extensively and properly and those where they were not- like puppy farms or pet shops. This is why sometimes i think i go against the grain to what most people suggest on DOL when it comes to mouthing etc- because i deal with alot of pups that were not handled enough with their breeder, and then by the time i see them already have reward history not condusive to what the owner wants- and we often need to do some behaviour blocking before we get into the great stuff- the confidence building, shaping, relationship building exercises etc. These are important factors that i believe get overlooked. It is hard for an owner to get stuck into some great positive training with a puppy hanging off their arm. Much easier when we have stopped the bite marks appearing!

[corvus]

Its not about teaching a puppy that they're helpless Corvus- its about teaching them that when you attempt to stop them doing something, and they have a tanty- the tantrum does not work. Its hardly teaching them that they have no control and can't do anything about a situation- its teaching them one element of their behaviour will not achieve their end goal.

How do you know? What do you suppose makes the puppy give up on the struggling front and relax? How can you say it wasn't that they tried everything they could think of to get away and none of it worked so they gave up completely? I'm not saying don't do it, I'm saying setting yourself up to have to do it is sloppy training. If they kick and struggle it's because they hate the restraint. Their little hearts will be pounding and they will stop thinking. I question they can learn anything operantly from doing that. They can certainly get used to it, but I fail to see why you would bother when you can get them used to it through counter-conditioning.

If the puppy has been having a blast mouthing people for a month, how do you convince them to bite a toy instead (that doesn't have the same reward history) WITHOUT stopping them from biting you first? With most puppies that have this kind of reward history, obedience commands won't hold- especially if there has been no training in drive done before.

I respect your opinion corvus, although i disagree- but remember- we are talking about a puppy who already has a strong reward history of mouthing people and dealing with this is very different from dealing with a brand new puppy that is dealt with through redirection as soon as they try the behaviour, every time.

Okay, fair enough. Don't really agree after my experiences with Erik in particular, but maybe he's a freak. I still think he has an over-sensitive reward system. He gets manic about rewards.

I completely agree with that statement- but i don't believe that working through a tantrum or two excludes the above at all- you can do both.

I don't either, but if you shrug off once or twice of one thing, it's just that little bit easier to shrug off another one or two of something similar. In my mind you have to be committed to your aims. You can't be committed if you're willing to make compromises without hitting yourself over the head with a rolled up newspaper and saying "Bad trainer!" I thought about this long and hard when Erik was a little guy, because he didn't much like being handled and he kicked up a real stink about it. I asked myself why he would go still when struggling harder and harder failed to work. I asked myself why he behaved so stressed by being held against his will, and why he seemed most stressed after he had stopped fighting. It seemed to me that by holding him until he relaxed I was teaching him he couldn't control this and that's why he was stressed about it. That's my interpretation. So restraining him until he goes still remains a compromise of my aims to me.

[koalathebear]

Thanks so much to everyone for their replies. Corvus and cosmolo - thanks for giving such detailed considered answers, it's much appreciated given how distressed we're feeling at our puppy's Jeklyll and Hyde behaviour. We're still quite baffled about how he goes from this:

This

and this

to being an absolute little monster who's growling and biting. I should confess that Elbie is actually the 'nice' version of L.B. which stands for Little Bastard because he's Elbie when he's well-behaved and a L.B. when he's badly behaved

Clearly his prey drive is very strong and we are trying to deflect him with his kong (which he loves) and his toys. It's just that sometimes his personality suddenly transforms and he starts snarling and gripping onto our jeans/socks and nothing seems to be able to distract him - he can be very single-minded. I notice that it's related to play so generally he won't attack if I'm in the kitchen cooking or ignoring him - it's only if I've been playing with him at all. He is very well behaved during our very short sessions of obedience training - and his sit and drop are improving and he's learning how to go to his mat and sit/drop etc. We just need to redirect him when he goes into monster mode ... or when his prey drive kicks in He'll have his booster shots on Friday so it will be safer to take him 'out' after that - the vet recommended keeping him secluded until he was fully protected.

Thanks again to everyone.

Edited May 3, 2010 by koalathebear

[poodlefan]

Corvus:

I asked myself why he would go still when struggling harder and harder failed to work.

Because, having failed to flee or fight the restraint he gave up and shut down.

I asked myself why he behaved so stressed by being held against his will, and why he seemed most stressed after he had stopped fighting.

Because he'd given up but the restraint that he wanted to escape was still there.

I can think of more gradual methods of accustoming a dog to handling than creating situations of learned helplessness.

Edited May 3, 2010 by poodlefan

[tarope]

Koalathebear,

Have you tried spraying underarm deodorant on your jeans and rubbing aftershave on your arms ?

This really works as they don't like the taste, I know because my GSD girl was a monster as a pup and use to bite the hell out of me.

I was covered in bites, arms and legs. I was told hold her head gently in your hands and say "no" but she said "yes" and would bite harder

If she wasn't bitting me she was chewing every thing else, what a monster. But there's good news, they do grow out of it as it's just a matter of time.