kyliegirl Posted April 27, 2011 Share Posted April 27, 2011 thanks everyone for your kind words about echos looks he is growing up to be quite handsome ^_^ I had a quick question for all you clicker trainers, not sure how to work on this but it appears i somehow now cannot get echo to do any new behaviours if it involves a toy because if he can see the toy he will not take his eyes off the toy and give me eye contact, if i try to teach a new behaviour using a toy he will lunge at the toy to try and play and completely ignores my hand as the lure.. What can I do? Atm he is working only for the toy/food and not for me or the clicker (he will completely ignore the clicker), the only way to currently teach new behaviours is with food lures then fake food lures - if he knows i don't have food in my hand he will ignore and seek out the food, he does not get excited when the clicker comes out, he only cares for the toys and food.. I also have to make him aware I have rewards otherwise he ignores apart from the regular sit/drop, what could I have done wrong? its probably an obvious answer but i cannot for the life of me think of it or find the answer in my clicker training books. also I am finding it very hard to teach him new tricks because he automatically sit/drops (offering and unstoppable offering) I am teaching stand, but if i leave it for 1 second he will plop his butt back down and expect a treat for it. He has sit and drop on pat now, i just wish he would stop offering them all the time lol.. I think we drummed them into his head too much.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lilli_star Posted April 27, 2011 Share Posted April 27, 2011 Happy birthday max!Echo is very beautiful Elbie and Hoover are soo cute together. I am taking Mindy to a special dog swimming pool tomorrow. It is indoor and heated!!!! Spoilt puppy. She is sulking today because she only got 3 walks. She loves the cold, rainy weather but I can't say i enjoy it a lot, so instead of taking her for her 4th walk I was in bed snuggled with a hot chocolate and book! She liked the hot chocolate part though and consented to snuggle on the bed with me. Wow! Mindy is one lucky doglet! The perks of living in Sydney too I guess. Meanwhile my black monster prefers cold, muddy dams and horse troughs at my brother's farm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betsy Posted April 27, 2011 Share Posted April 27, 2011 Hi KylieGirl Is Echo hitting adolescence? I remember thinking 'why is my dog suddenly disobedient?'. I spoke to his breeder (who also trains). I decided that I wouldn't try so hard, and not try to introduce so much new stuff. Instead, I focused on basics, try to make things a bit more "fun", and also kept training sessions short and tried to always end on a positive. After a few months, Ziggy was ready to please again, and I was able to try more training stuff...... Hope that helps a bit! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
koalathebear Posted April 27, 2011 Author Share Posted April 27, 2011 (edited) I had a quick question for all you clicker trainers, not sure how to work on this but it appears i somehow now cannot get echo to do any new behaviours if it involves a toy because if he can see the toy he will not take his eyes off the toy and give me eye contact, if i try to teach a new behaviour using a toy he will lunge at the toy to try and play and completely ignores my hand as the lure.. What can I do? Atm he is working only for the toy/food and not for me or the clicker (he will completely ignore the clicker), the only way to currently teach new behaviours is with food lures then fake food lures - if he knows i don't have food in my hand he will ignore and seek out the food, he does not get excited when the clicker comes out, he only cares for the toys and food.. I also have to make him aware I have rewards otherwise he ignores apart from the regular sit/drop, what could I have done wrong? its probably an obvious answer but i cannot for the life of me think of it or find the answer in my clicker training books. also I am finding it very hard to teach him new tricks because he automatically sit/drops (offering and unstoppable offering) I am teaching stand, but if i leave it for 1 second he will plop his butt back down and expect a treat for it. He has sit and drop on pat now, i just wish he would stop offering them all the time lol.. I think we drummed them into his head too much.. Hi kyliegirl You might need to 'recharge' the click i.e just have your bowl of small treats, click and treat, click and treat to recondition Echo to the clicker being a Good Thing. Alternatively, if Echo is that toy/food focused, you can just use those as a reward for when he does the right thing. He doesn't get the food or the toy until he delivers the right action. My two are stubborn little bastards sometimes and I will quite frequently have a stare down with them until they finally obey the command If he keeps getting distracted by the toy in your hand, let him see it but then put it behind your back or out of sight and then reward him with it when he does the right thing. Alternatively, you could use it to lure behaviours like spin - we used a toy to teach spin. Stay is one of the trickiest things ... if Echo is delivering up begsit, then why not try building on that first? eg. high five, wave, or beg. Those things flow quite naturally from the sit. Edited April 27, 2011 by koalathebear Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kyliegirl Posted April 27, 2011 Share Posted April 27, 2011 (edited) hi betsy, kind of but not really Echos problem is he has trouble learning because he is too focused on the reward (treats/toys) that he will try to demand them if you dont give them to him when he offers sit/drop or try to lure him to learn or do something new apart from sit/drop.. he fixates on the toys/food instead of seeking me to find out what i want him to do, he just assumes sit and drop is the be all end all and therefore if he offers it then he should rightfully get his reward. He couldn't care less about the clicker and does not appear to realise we are training for new things, not old so he will just park his butt on the ground until he grows tired and starts to demand food or try to grab the toy, he does not look up at me or try to offer a behaviour to get a click, he just sits there. I tried the box thing, with both a small and large box, but the second i click and treat something, he realises food and then just sit/drops constantly and ignores the box, we sit there for 10 mins until he gets bored and walks away, i can kick, poke and tell him to go to the box but he does not get it. I dont think he understands offering behaviours? I am not sure how I can get him to understand offering behaviours.. ktb- we dont teach stay instead we have been teaching echo to sit/stay drop/stay in small time increments until released.. of course it doesnt help when my oh keeps forgetting to break the sit >_< really frustrating and he gets confused. The furthest we have gotten is "up" where he stands on his hind legs, I am slowly extending the time he stands - but this is very slow. I have been teaching stand, but again slow and he will plonk his butt back down after a second or so.. Edited April 27, 2011 by kyliegirl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
koalathebear Posted April 27, 2011 Author Share Posted April 27, 2011 kyliegirl: if he's really that obsessed with the toy, you can use it to lure him into a rollover and also a crawl. Those require the dog to basically obsessively chase the toy/food. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max#1 Posted April 27, 2011 Share Posted April 27, 2011 Thanks everyone for the birthday wishes! Now he's officially twelve months I've started trying to teach him some new tricks! Jump!!!! (And I gave drop on recall a go after seeing Wuffles and Ava's trial - we did three across the loungeroom then I stopped. It seems to make him drool,......?). The next you tube video I post Max will be jumping through my arms, you watch, even if it does take three years. Kyliegirl - sounds frustrating with the training. Just remember he's a dog. He's only doing what works for him. Maybe you're trying too much too fast? Just have a play and enjoy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
koalathebear Posted April 27, 2011 Author Share Posted April 27, 2011 ktb- we dont teach stay instead we have been teaching echo to sit/stay drop/stay in small time increments until released.. of course it doesnt help when my oh keeps forgetting to break the sit >_< really frustrating and he gets confused. The furthest we have gotten is "up" where he stands on his hind legs, I am slowly extending the time he stands - but this is very slow. I have been teaching stand, but again slow and he will plonk his butt back down after a second or so.. So sorry - I meant to type 'stand'. My brain is all over the place today - I might be going into Fatal Chocolate Deprivation. For stand, I suggest you just lure him from a sit into a stand for the time being and get your OH to stick his arm under his stomach to keep him in position for a few seconds, just to 'show' him what you want. Even if he only holds the stand for a second or two, reward and praise madly. For Elbie, we praise him like crazy when he does what he's supposed to even for a second. Then as he offers the behaviour more consistently, then we will only reward after he does what we want him to - you gradually raise the bar but in the early stages, you praise and reward like crazy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betsy Posted April 27, 2011 Share Posted April 27, 2011 KG - Do you use the NILIF principle (nothing in life is free) Basically - although i will not explain too well, nothing 'rewarding' (pats, toys, food, etc) given to dog unless they are doing as asked I used this during a more 'challenging' phase, and it seemed to really work. I think I used 'go to the mat' command, sit, wait etc. It seemed to work pretty well for gaining more control and focus. What KTB has posted is also useful.... Ziggy is very food focused. I never actually use treats in my hand anymore as it is too distracting. I find I can actually use my hand to lure behaviour without food. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lilli_star Posted April 27, 2011 Share Posted April 27, 2011 The next you tube video I post Max will be jumping through my arms, you watch, even if it does take three years. Oooh! I want to teach Ruby that! I looked up how to do it last week. I need to snavel a hoop from school. I did get her to walk through my arms when in a circle last week though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betsy Posted April 27, 2011 Share Posted April 27, 2011 lilli_star - you can get cheap hoops at Kmart.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
koalathebear Posted April 27, 2011 Author Share Posted April 27, 2011 OH is trying to teach Elbie to jump onto his back when he's kind of in a crouch So far no one has been hurt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niques Posted April 27, 2011 Share Posted April 27, 2011 (edited) KG, in regards to him not holding a stand, have you tried building it up in small increments? So if he's holding the stand for only a second, then reward as soon as he's up and gradually start waiting a fraction of a second longer before rewarding? Alternatively, does he have a "free" command? I was, initially not a fan of "free" but had to teach him for his Puppy Obedience course as the instructor wasn't a fan of "stay". Rather, she believes that the dog should obey until released. And teaching it has actually helped a lot in maintaining sits, downs and stands as he knows that a reward will come for breaking the position only when I release him. I want to see some work-in-progress videos of Max and Ruby learning to jump through arms and hoops...particularly the outtakes If James could jump reliably I would definitely be inclined to try. What tricks is everyone currently teaching/have taught? James and I plateaued some time ago, in terms of new tricks, and I'm looking for something to catch my eye so we can work on new things. Edited April 27, 2011 by Niques Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max#1 Posted April 27, 2011 Share Posted April 27, 2011 Niques - have you done commando crawling? This one has stumped me cause Max happily does it for a guy at flyball, and did it as a puppy at puppy pre-school (all those eons ago) but will NOT do it for me!!!! What about teaching same tricks with different reward? I got a lot of fun out of rewarding by playing tug, rather than by food. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niques Posted April 27, 2011 Share Posted April 27, 2011 Niques - have you done commando crawling? This one has stumped me cause Max happily does it for a guy at flyball, and did it as a puppy at puppy pre-school (all those eons ago) but will NOT do it for me!!!! We did crawling quite a while ago. He was fairly mediocre at it - tended to just thrash wildly and flop over after a couple of feet of crawling But he can only do it on carpet as the tiles are too slippery, and I've been trying to keep His Hairy Highness off carpet recently Perhaps when it stops raining and the grass dries out, we shall work on improving it. Non-food rewarding is a very interesting idea and I shall definitely give it a shot in the morning! Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max#1 Posted April 27, 2011 Share Posted April 27, 2011 Niques - have you done commando crawling? This one has stumped me cause Max happily does it for a guy at flyball, and did it as a puppy at puppy pre-school (all those eons ago) but will NOT do it for me!!!! We did crawling quite a while ago. He was fairly mediocre at it - tended to just thrash wildly and flop over after a couple of feet of crawling But he can only do it on carpet as the tiles are too slippery, and I've been trying to keep His Hairy Highness off carpet recently Perhaps when it stops raining and the grass dries out, we shall work on improving it. Non-food rewarding is a very interesting idea and I shall definitely give it a shot in the morning! Thanks! I got a different dog when I did it. Instead of just sitting, he'd bounce into a sit - was hilarious. He does everything like he's on a benny hill skit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lilli_star Posted April 27, 2011 Share Posted April 27, 2011 lilli_star - you can get cheap hoops at Kmart.... True. But I can just 'borrow' one from school . Also, we have a pop-up tunnel at school that I've been eyeing off for awhile... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lilli_star Posted April 27, 2011 Share Posted April 27, 2011 I got a different dog when I did it. Instead of just sitting, he'd bounce into a sit - was hilarious. He does everything like he's on a benny hill skit. I'm assuming there's music too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betsy Posted April 27, 2011 Share Posted April 27, 2011 Oh, do you have number charts too? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max#1 Posted April 27, 2011 Share Posted April 27, 2011 PMSL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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