Elbie, Hoover, Dodge & Friends!

[koalathebear]

CleoJ: I blame the latest BDOC newsletter! It got my brain travelling down memory lane again

Thursday should be lots of fun. I am still tossing up about whether or not I can bring Hoover and pop him in a crate so that he can have a little bit of fun or whether the baby gets left at home while we're at assessment.

Congratulations to you and Shandy about the Delta Therapy Dog assessment. That sounds like something that would be amazing to do and if my dogs weren't quite such active little jumping beans, I would be wanting to pursue.

lilli_star: OH was very unimpressed by stories of red backs and then I showed him scary youtube videos about funnel web spiders. ;) Fortunately we don't really have funnel webs here in Canberra but the ants are certainly pretty annoying in summer. Like waffles, for indoor stuff that's out of the reach of doggies, we have been buying the little ant bait in plastic containers that the ants take back to the next to kill the other ants.

OH loves the birds here – they're very colourful and interesting and he likes the wildlife, too but I think he misses squirrels

Hey KTB, have you bought an Easywalk harness for Hoover? I have one here gathering dust if you want it (or anyone else for that matter). Size medium. I bought it for Roo, but it just encourages her to grab the lead. Barely used once (does having it fit at the vet clinic count? Or practising in the backyard?).

I am going to look like the biggest scab on earth taking all of yours and KumaAkita's discards To be honest, Hoover isn't a puller so we're going to continue to work really hard with him on a flat collar and hope that he stays as a non-puller. With Elbie, we've got the Easywalk harness but we're redoubling our efforts to get him to walk with a flat collar without pulling. I get very dizzy. He's actually ok in an oval where there's grass everywhere and I can change various directions easily and keep the lease loose. The tricky thing is getting him to the oval from our house without pulling, though ;) Also at dog school when he knows that there's only one place we're headed – to the training field so even if you change directions, he knows where the ultimate objective is so he will hurtle in that direction. Anyway, we will persist because it's actually the trickiest thing with him – he's so good at loose leash walking in class but on the road etc he's so bad at it.

I myself had a very morbid moment last night thinking about James' lifespan and the idea simply devestated me. I've never had a pet die before - my childhood rabbit had to be given away when we moved to QLD (and I always felt the little fellow was pure evil anyway :D ) and my turtle ended up in a creek. So the thought is terrifying.

Urgh, I hope I didn't prompt the morbid thought. So sorry! Fear not, all of our doggies are still young, healthy and chirpy.

KTB, hopefully you get some helpful advice on Elbie's growling. From my (very inexperienced) point of view, the desensitising and rewarding that you're doing sounds like a good plan.

Thanks. I spoke to the behaviourist this morning and we'll have to do a few things but the desensitisation is something that we will definitely be continuing with.

I'm so grateful for being able to give the dogs I have had a good life - it may not be perfect - but its still a good life, with lots of love, attention and fun. I don't know what else to say...!

That's how I feel. I know that on DOL, I am probably regarded as a Bad Dog Parent, but I really think that my dogs have a good life and are happy … We at least do our best by them and put a lot of time, effort and love into them which is really all we can do!

Speaking of directing. A friend from the park is starting to teach his brittany left and right. I remember you had an interest in this KTB. For him though, its more about retrieving, and involves him just putting his left or right arm out to direct the dog left or right. Retrieving as a sport sounds fascinating, as its using the dog's instinct, but under such fine fine control.

Elbie is perfect at going in the direction I point or even jerk my chin – but he's still a bit suspect with the verbal command. I haven't quite been able to make him understand what right and left mean yet. All my fault though because the last time we did it, *I* got left and right mixed up so spent 20 minutes saying "left" and telling him to go right. ;)

As to Max's barking and the not liking being pulled around by the collar … I had a fairly long chat with our behaviourist about Elbie today. She is the instructor who teaches behavioural classes every Saturday morning and she's the person who came around for a consult when Elbie was being an absolute snot when he was a younger puppy. With her help we were able to get rid of his obnoxious behaviours but we always knew that with a smart and high-strung dog like Elbie, as one issue was resolved, another would rear its furry head. It's possible that her conclusions for Elbie might not be the same as for Max because she knows Elbie very well – has known him since he was 5 months old. We will also talk to her about the issue further on Saturday before or after classes.

To summarise, she said the following:

There are some dogs that just don't like being pulled by the collar/picked up. She said that given Elbie's age, this is about when he would be starting to challenge more. She said that by all means we could and should continue desensitising Elbie to being pulled by the collar and being picked up because this is helpful for vet visits etc BUT this should only be done when he's calm and not as part of a confrontation. At present, Elbie is totally fine about being pulled by the collar and picked up when it's not in the context of being forced to go out of a room/the house.

The issue is that if we've told Elbie to get out and he doesn't want to do it and he growls, we have to pick him up and toss him out because we don't want to back down because he'll see that growling can get him his way and he'll resort to the tactic again in future. By pushing confrontations, we run the risk of pushing him into biting us, which is what we do not want. She said we have to divert him – get him outside with food or a toy or calling him etc. Basically, we do not put him into a position where we tell him to do something he doesn't want to do, he tells us he doesn't want to cooperate and then we have to follow through. We won't look 'weak' if we can lure him out using other methods. She also said that OH and I were not going to be good 'punishers' so it wasn't a good idea for us to be trying to punish Elbie because we risked doing more harm than good. Knowing Elbie and knowing OH and me she felt that diversion was the best way to address the issue. It certainly worked with the 'bed attacking' he used to do as a younger pup. He used to attack the bed and then when we told him not to, he'd growl. We started diverting him. After a while, he stopped attacking the bed and on the very rare occasion when he attacks his bed, we can tell him to stop and he will without challenging us.

I've talked about the above with my OH and it makes sense to us. Elbie's a cross-breed, we know nothing of his background except that he's from working lines and as the behaviourist puts it, he probably would have been totally fine and relaxed on a large property with lots of work to do, but plonked into a suburban setting he has to have some sort of outlet for his energy. It's part of the surprise bundle we got when we got our lovable cross-breed ...

I was a bit anxious but not as worried as I have been previously i.e. Oh My God The End Is Nigh Build An Ark You And Your Little Dog Are Gonna Die kind of thing. I've realised after meeting lots of experienced different dog owners that sometimes the picture I see on DOL is a bit skewed. If you look here, whenever someone posts about their dog growling/nipping, they're frequently made to feel like their dog must have serious behavioural problems that can never be rectified, only managed. It makes people less likely to ever post about their dogs doing anything negative like that in case the pitchforks and "PTS now!" chorus starts up.

I guess there might be a lot of dogs out there that go their whole lives without growling or nipping at their owners, but there are a lot out there who do and in many cases, it's because of miscommunication. If people were less judgemental about it, there might be more people 'confessing' to it so that it's possible to get a real sense of what is 'normal', 'a bit bad' and what is 'truly bad'. Forced into 'the closet of shame', a lot of people probably try to deal with it on their own and that's when things go from bad to worse.

Anyway, sorry for the waffle. :p I'll let you know how we fare. I'm pretty optimistic because Elbie has always been pretty good about corrections once we understand what on earth is going on. He is a scarily smart dog sometimes.

As for that photo of Max on the kitchen table – that is soooooo cute. How on earth does he get up there – chair to table or can he leap that high? Post it nowhere else on the forum though lest ye be judged ;)

Finally - Niques that photo of James is beyond adorable. He is clearly Plotting Mischief.

Edited November 22, 2010 by koalathebear

[Max#1]

No he's been managing the table now in a clean leap for some time. Super dog.... ehrm yes well. Niques - that sounds truly gross. And coming from QLD, I know the types of bugs there are up there to be found in a swimming pool!

KTB I exactly know what you mean. I understand thoroughly! And with the fly chasing thing - he must be getting some enjoyment out of it, or it could be an attention-seeking behaviour - but I think diversion is an excellent idea. But being careful not to let him associate 'if I bark and jump and stare at the walls like I'm possessed, she'll give me food or play with me!'. And I'll work on doing that before he gets too worked up. What I'll do, if I see that 'black speck seeking' gleam come into his eye, I give him a job to do - like 'go get your rope (I love that he knows the names of his toys!)'. Cross fingers.

The behavourist sounds really excellent and it must be so reassuring to know that you're on the right track! I sometimes will growl at Max if he is doing something I don't like - and I wonder if in some contexts this is creating a confrontation? Not in this context, but an example - on the weekend we went to a friends' house, who have a lab. The two dogs played brilliantly and really enjoyed each other's company, in that happy way only labs can! Though from time to time Max would try to hump this guy (35 kg vs 15 kg, you can imagine). My instinct was to growl at Max and push him off. It only occurred to me after I'd done this a few times that the people might think I'm quite mad! I will pay more attention to this.

Oh I fully empathize with all those out there struggling with LLW. I'm afraid we've been a bit lax on this, possibly not noticing or worrying about it because he was smaller - and its only now he's getting stronger that he can really pull you along. Also the fact that he would always do it brilliantly at obedience class, I thought I might be able to get away with it. But no. Sunday at obedience class he wouldn't LLW to save his life. He lunged, he pulled, he rolled over onto his back, he barked, and then lunged some more. 'Don't let him pull' my helpful obedience instructor pointed out.... Our walk this morning was less than 1 km, but took so so so so long. I experimented with luring him back beside me, or turning and walking in the other direction. It didn't take long for it to click that he needs to be beside me for forward motion to begin. It hasn't yet clicked that he needs to STAY beside me for forward motion to continue. I'm experimenting with a choker chain. This is quite effective, but I don't use it all the time.

Well I've just succumbed and put the aircon on. Anything over 30 degrees is just not on.

[betsy]

Ooh I do love this thread.

KTB - The only way I get Ziggy out of the house is to use food! I use food about 99.5% of the time. Very rarely I sometimes grab him by the collar and walk him out if he's been bad, - ie been told off a couple of times for doing something, and continues to carry on doing same behaviour. He hasn't growled at me for a while (since he was about 5 months).

Max#1 - loving the photo on the table (was it a lot cooler up there?) Not sure how my doggy will cope with this weather, I suspect he will be a bit more tired than usual.

Wuffles - I saw on the aussie thread that it must be Ava's birthday soon! How time flies. Ziggy is nowhere near her in terms of training. But I secretly think its something to do with being a boy.. (and having me as a trainer!).

Have been a bit quiet on here lately. My mum was over house-sitting. I realised then that even though my boy loves everyone, he loves me best! (Of course i realise he doesn't have human emotions like me and perhaps at the moment i am the pack leader, but it was still nice to see!). When my mum was getting her suitcase ready to go, he just ran to me (I think he thought I might be leaving again...)

Ah LLW - I think this is the hardest thing to teach! I usually end up getting quite frustrated. Yet I know it is important. I have left off using the harness (although I do have one), and have dreams of having a dog who walks beautifully on a loose leash not paying any attention to other dogs, or lungeing at scraps on the footpath in case they are food, or racing to the nearest post/tree/fence to sniff the previous dogs' messages....

[Max#1]

Okay my day has been a total waste.

All I've been doing is reading stuff online!!!! But I came across this pearler, that some people might appreciate... http://www.dogstardaily.com/training/hyperdog

[wuffles]

Regarding the collar, I do think it's a pretty common thing. Ava is as soft as butter so if you ask her to do something, she does it Satch is stubborn and as they don't wear collars when we're at home, we bribe him if he won't do something. He does hate it when I grab his collar at the dog park as it generally means he's been naughty and he's going to get put back on leash. He knows better than to growl or snap though, he just turns his head and then looks defeated...

I bought Ava and Kuma birthday pressies today, I think they'll love them! Can't believe my little girl is one next week. She's pretty special!

Loose leash walking is evil. Despite all the 'experts' saying it's an easy thing to teach, nearly everyone I know has problems with it.

[Paulp]

I empathize with destructo-mode dogs.... Someone decided today would be a good day for some home-reno's. Ripped up nearly 1m2 carpet, including shredding to a hundred million pieces the foam underlay.

;) Someone had a productive day!

Can't wait to see some footage of all the agility and flyball dogs when they start learning I would love to do flyball but have heard it's not such a good idea for labradors.

Had a letter from our breeder yesterday containing a copy of James' television debut! Totally Wild did a segment on breeders when he was 7 weeks old and he and his litter starred. I'd forgotten how unbelievably adorable they were! Will try and upload it at some point.

We have 6 or 7 labs and lab crosses (including my dog) in our club and one of those is the fastest flyball lab in Australia. After the working dogs, labs are probably the most common breed in flyball. As long as you keep them lean and teach them a good turn on the box there is no reason why flyball would be harmful to them.

[Max#1]

I concur Paulp! They looked great!

[koalathebear]

I have googled this. Dooley the Lab looks so cute and happy doing flyball.

[Max#1]

And from what I've seen, 5.1 seconds is pretty good!

[lilli_star]

Hey KTB, how did you teach Elbie to weave?

I'm supposed to teach Roo a trick for dog school, although we won't actually be there for the last class/graduation when the tricks have to be demonstrated.

So far Ruby can (mood willing)- sit/sit up (from drop), shake, high five, drop, stay, wait, fetch X (Duck/Cow/Rabbit), still working on roll over and give it. Nowhere near as talented as your doglets, but we try!

What do the rest of your doglets do that I can teach that is not too frustrating?

[koalathebear]

Hey KTB, how did you teach Elbie to weave?

I'm supposed to teach Roo a trick for dog school, although we won't actually be there for the last class/graduation when the tricks have to be demonstrated.

So far Ruby can (mood willing)- sit/sit up (from drop), shake, high five, drop, stay, wait, fetch X (Duck/Cow/Rabbit), still working on roll over and give it. Nowhere near as talented as your doglets, but we try!

What do the rest of your doglets do that I can teach that is not too frustrating?

Alas it's just a lure - you lure doggy through your legs with treats ... it gets to the point where he trots through quite happily. An easy one is

- just one lure through your legs and they peek up at you and it's a very cute trick. Or you could do crawl where you get Ruby in a drop and lure her along the ground with food. Elbie crawls on grass but not on the floor of the kitchen etc. Or spin - it took just a few lures to teach Hoover how to spin. I'm impressed that you can get Roo to select a certain toy - we haven't tried teaching Elbie to pick up particular toys yet and have no idea if he'd be any good at it. Good luck! Let me know what you decide to do

[lilli_star]

Hey KTB, how did you teach Elbie to weave?

I'm supposed to teach Roo a trick for dog school, although we won't actually be there for the last class/graduation when the tricks have to be demonstrated.

So far Ruby can (mood willing)- sit/sit up (from drop), shake, high five, drop, stay, wait, fetch X (Duck/Cow/Rabbit), still working on roll over and give it. Nowhere near as talented as your doglets, but we try!

What do the rest of your doglets do that I can teach that is not too frustrating?

Alas it's just a lure - you lure doggy through your legs with treats ... it gets to the point where he trots through quite happily. An easy one is

- just one lure through your legs and they peek up at you and it's a very cute trick. Or you could do crawl where you get Ruby in a drop and lure her along the ground with food. Elbie crawls on grass but not on the floor of the kitchen etc. Or spin - it took just a few lures to teach Hoover how to spin. I'm impressed that you can get Roo to select a certain toy - we haven't tried teaching Elbie to pick up particular toys yet and have no idea if he'd be any good at it. Good luck! Let me know what you decide to do

Hmmm, she won't stay in a drop though to crawl- she gets up To be honest, I don't know how Roo learnt to select different toys, it just kind of happened

Off to find vids on weaving...

[Paulp]

And from what I've seen, 5.1 seconds is pretty good!

5.1 on debut for a lab is excellent. Our clubs fast lab in her prime was doing 4.4 - 4.5 seconds, my lab X GR has done 4.7, we have a couple of others that are in the low 5 seconds. Most labs are between 5 and 6 seconds.

[koalathebear]

Hmmm, she won't stay in a drop though to crawl- she gets up To be honest, I don't know how Roo learnt to select different toys, it just kind of happened Off to find vids on weaving...

We only learned that Elbie would crawl recently - before he'd always just run along with his butt in the air and his nose on the ground. For weaving, it seriously is just a matter of sticking the food in front of Roo's nose and luring her under each leg. I am not sure how tall you are though - if Elbie tried to weave through my legs, I'd probably topple over.

Also about loose lead walking? Grr! OH and I have put away the Easywalk harness and we've gritted our teeth and made a pact that we're going to master that darned LLW if it kills us. The harness is great but it's not a real fix but as OH points out, he feels bad because the fact that Elbie can be such a serial puller means that we're less inclined to take him out for a walk. This is sad.

Tonight I used the leash on both Elbie and Hoover around the backyard and the house. They were both perfect. Leash was as loose as you can imagine and they were constantly checking back with me. If only I could get this focus Out There by the road!!!

ETA: On the plus side, our two are not barkers. The dogs next door are sooooooooooooo loud. There's one that has a massively deep bark that goes WOOF WOOF ****WOOOOOOOF**** and then their smaller dog kind of howls and wails along. Our two hear this all the time and don't bark back. I frequently hear a dog barking and worry it's our two and OH has to shake his head and ask me why I don't recognise our own dog's barks Then I go to the back door and our two are sitting there staring up at me, quiet as mice with limpidly innocent eyes. It's always very funny and I always feel guilty for having falsely accused them.

Here is Hoover and his favourite toy - Monkey.

He usually only gets Monkey when it's bed time and he loves playing with Monkey so much!

Edited November 22, 2010 by koalathebear

[wuffles]

Walking backwards is a good trick as well, or maybe bow! I used a nose-to-hand touch to teach the weave which was easier than working out how to hold the treat

Some vids from us:

A fun one, here is

after a day in her prison last week

And a boring one for anyone who cares to watch, here is

from this afternoon.

[lilli_star]

Walking backwards is a good trick as well, or maybe bow! I used a nose-to-hand touch to teach the weave which was easier than working out how to hold the treat

Some vids from us:

A fun one, here is

after a day in her prison last week

And a boring one for anyone who cares to watch, here is

from this afternoon.

I love the wigglebum video! She's just so happy!

I really like watching your training vids, Wuffles, but seriously, what's your secret? How do you get Ava to heel so well? Especially when that guy was jogging nearby? If only I could post you my naughty rabbit! Roo has only marginally improved her ant-like attention span, although in the backyard today I got her to stay and come from almost the entire length of the yard (my backyard is pretty big).

I started to try and teach weave. I started with peekaboo, but the lazy slug wouldn't go around and just flopped down. We'll keep trying (of course I should be thinking about reports... ) KTB, I'm not very tall and not at all graceful, so hope Roo doesn't knock me over when she's bigger!

[koalathebear]

The behavourist sounds really excellent and it must be so reassuring to know that you're on the right track!

Yes, she's very helpful. If you make it to Canberra for the flyball and want to have a chat with her about Max, I could set up an appointment for you. She likes all dogs but has a soft spot for border collies.

We actually had a behavioural consult booked with K9Pro in Sydney and we really wanted to go (paid and everything) but we weren't able to make the trip to Sydney in the end because Hoover came along and we couldn't make the long drive at that point. We're intending to go next year but he's quite booked up for months and months and with my father's health being so incredibly precarious right now, there is no way we can commit to an appointment so far in advance. The appointment with K9Pro wasn't for problems so much as wanting to get a temperament assessment and ideas about best ways to train Elbie - hopefully taking the edge of his hyperactivity and making him less distracted when walking down the street. Anyway, we'll see what happens.

Hoover is a very interesting contrast for me - so chilled and focussed on us. It's very easy to get his attention even when we're surrounded by other people and dogs. Today, I had a fright because when I got home from work, I opened the door and both dogs dashed past me. Elbie immediately went back inside but Hoover ran a few steps down the stairs and stood in the front yard. I had visions of him running onto the road and getting run over before my eyes but we called him back and he immediately came back and ran into the house after us. I was very relieved. I've been working with his recall over and over and over but would never have dreamed of testing it in the Big Wide World but looks like we've had our first test.

wuffles: love the videos, especially wigglebum ... I can't believe how vigorous her wiggle is. Hoover could give her some competition in the wiggling but she also runs forward fast while wiggling and that's hilarious.

lilli_star: for peekaboo, you could just start with standing in front of Roo and luring her through your legs. The only danger with peekaboo is that she might do it unsolicited - Elbie peekabooed one of our classmates at Dog School one day. It was very embarrassing.

Also, still on the topic of the Evil Loose Lead walking, hopenfox on the kelpie thread gave this suggestion:

Start walking with your dog beside you, and the moment they move ahead you exclaim "Oops!" and walk briskly backwards (still facing forwards) so the dog is redirected to walk back in your direction then before they get right up to you, you praise heaps, and start walking forward again (which will automatically put them at your side or a little behind). Repeat as often as necessary...this method (done consistently) seems to work quite quickly

I'm determined to get Elbie walking nicely on a leash by the road if it kills me. He can do it - he does it so nicely in class! Also, if cars get too close or are very noisy he lunges ... This is not good and makes me extra determined that he is never going to be an off-lead dog ...

[wuffles]

I love the wigglebum video! She's just so happy! :D

I really like watching your training vids, Wuffles, but seriously, what's your secret? How do you get Ava to heel so well? Especially when that guy was jogging nearby? If only I could post you my naughty rabbit! Roo has only marginally improved her ant-like attention span, although in the backyard today I got her to stay and come from almost the entire length of the yard (my backyard is pretty big).

Thanks, I love my happy little wriggler! :D

My secrets? There are a few... the main one is lots and lots of work I spent heaps of time on the basics and still do lots of simple stuff when we go out. Another thing would be trying to keep training fun and short. The only times I ever do heel patterns as long as in the video are occasionally at dog club (even then I reward more often) and when I'm making videos I am only just starting to work on duration to increase the amount of time she will heel without rewards and the result of that is the video!

I go to the oval after work and just sit with her and reward for calm behaviour. I walk around the oval, where people including kids are playing, and just call her to me and reward if she looks like she's being distracted. Sometimes I just wander around and call her to heel position, reward her and release, a few times over. Or I heel in a circle, rewarding her every few steps. Or I play games where we heel a few steps then I throw her reward a few metres away then run away and ask her to heel again. And at home I do a lot of the stationery exercises so just maintaining heel position while I walk one or two steps, change directions, turn in a circle, etc. She really enjoys most of these exercises as long as I keep the reward rate quite high and mix it up with other exercises like stays, recalls, tricks and play. Also I think making sure she knows what "heel position" is rather than just "walking beside me" has been important...

The last "secret" is having an ultra smart and willing dog who makes it lots of fun to train

wuffles: love the videos, especially wigglebum ... I can't believe how vigorous her wiggle is. Hoover could give her some competition in the wiggling but she also runs forward fast while wiggling and that's hilarious.

I love how she wiggles and runs at the same time. OH often calls her to him in the study just to see her do the wigglewalk. Did you notice how Satch was just wandering around going "hey, I wonder if there's anything interesting in here... oh hi Ava... anyway, this smells good..." :D

[Max#1]

Wuffles - Ava's wigglebum when she's got the plastic bottle almost looks like she's doing the cha cha! Left, right, left, throw head back! And her heeling is lovely. She is in a perfect position - not too close to you (you need to be able to carry a gun, at least this is what the retrievers tell me) - but she's obviously thoroughly enjoying coming along with you!

Do you make sure she's hungry before doing training? I think I've been forgetting that - and then wondering why Max isn't super-excited to do what I want for food anymore. At the same time, toys are more exciting. It could also be his age too... nigh on 7 months. I can't believe Ava is almost 1!!

KTB: LLW will be conquered! The vow of the LLW'er. I like it.

[wuffles]

Do you make sure she's hungry before doing training? I think I've been forgetting that - and then wondering why Max isn't super-excited to do what I want for food anymore. At the same time, toys are more exciting. It could also be his age too... nigh on 7 months. I can't believe Ava is almost 1!!

She is always hungry, an absolute garbage guts :p I don't fast her for training but most of the time she hasn't eaten for a while beforehand anyway (eg. 8 hours when we get home from work). Neither of my dogs get brekkie on weekends either just for the sake of convenience. However, if I get her kibble out and ask her to do some heelwork in the living room after dinner, she'll happily oblige

She likes toys but doesn't go crazy for them. If she did, I would use them more often for training. I got her to retrieve a ball yesterday about 5 times in a row which I think is a record for us... after that she went back to her usual chase the ball, run straight past it and then run back to mum sans ball I'd just use the ball as a reward if I were you! A lady in our class shows her dog the ball, zips it up into her bumbag so the dog can't see it, does her exercises, releases her dog then throws the ball as a reward.

I would like her to act a bit more animated in the heeling but we never have a problem with lagging so I am happy about that ;) The times she acts the most excited are when she decides she's going to heel when I haven't asked her to... not sure why she does this but I think she's determined to get some food out of me and gets excited about it!

Satchmo isn't highly food motivated, nor does he have any interest in toys whatsoever. He is very difficult to motivate and this is why you never see videos of him