I Love Clicker Training!

[Pete.the.dog]

No need to apologise Erny

I understand where you're coming from, and look forward to hearing others responses. I'm seeing Steve from K9Pro next week ( ), so am holding off on implementing any training ideas I have until after that, but clicker training is certainly something I'm curious about, so I too am interested in hearing why people felt it was different from verbal marking

[luvsablue]

For reasons I won't bother you with, I wanted to teach my dog to walk backwards when I asked her to. For about 2 years I tried it but all she'd do was sit in front of me.

Then I started clicker with her about January this year.

I waited until she walked back of her own accord, and clicked this and treated.

(When this was happening she was already conditioned to the click and what it means etc.)

She started walking back a lot, then I put a word to it.

Then I would ask her to stand, and every time she stood, from down or sit, she'd take a few steps back.

This was exactly what I wanted to train and it happened using clicker.

I think that when we start the free shaping in this way, the dog seems to learn faster than if we try to put words in before it knows what we want it to do.

There are no words at all, and maybe it's the silence, except for the click which makes it clearer for the dog?

Who knows?

Before I ever did clicker we trained with a lot of fun, rewards and games. But there were words, big long strings of them, which of course are just a meaningless babble of sound to a dog.

So when I'm introducing something new I use click/treat and no words.

And also to polish up a few things. So it might have something to do with the silence.

Actually, I find most people talk a lot while training, and sometimes leave the dog sitting there while they gabble away.

If your dog hears your voice a lot it's going to tune out, and this is not good for a training situation.

Cheers,

luvsablue

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

I use verbal marker and clicker, for different things.

For heel work and agility, especially in class, I use "good" or "good dog".

For tricks like roll over and shake hands and "what you say" I used the clicker.

I'm currently trying to get relaxed nail clipping and I'm using the clipper as a clicker... I'm so unco, I did start with the clicker but given the behaviour I wanted to mark was the clipper clicking near her claws, I didn't have enough hands to hold the paw and claw and work the clipper and the clicker and then get a treat. Although dog was willing to help herself to the treats. Not as helpful as she thought it was really.

But we're getting there. She's almost relaxed about getting treats upside down. And much better about having the clipper on her claws. I actually managed to clip a dew claw the other day. And one of the long ones on her front paws. For some reason her back paws' claws don't get long.

Just using a verbal marker for all this, wasn't getting me anywhere. Charging up the clipper seems to be a major break through.

[OSoSwift]

I went from check chain training to clicker, so I have never tried a verbal cue only. I do use verbal clues, but find the clicker much more precise and it is totally unemotional. I use good and yes as well, but more as 'go on' signals than a completion of behaviour and treat.

I can C/T much faster than I can verbal Cue/T.

[Simply Grand]

So whilst I agree with you, Pete.the.dog, that we could guess at why some people are astounded at the improvement in their dogs when they turn to clicker "training", I'd be really interested to hear from those who have made the switch from what they were doing, to clicker, and what they each feel is the reason for their individual dogs' improved training achievements.

Fair enough, I agree first hand accounts would be interesting as well, I just thought it was an interesting topic...

Sorry, Pete - I don't mean for you not to contribute with your ideas, thoughts and any comments you'd like to make. By all means. I just read your post as though I was asking what are the advantages of clicker "training". I know those, just was interested in those who were saying they couldn't get their dogs to do things and how clicker training now has their dog learning to learn etc. etc., as to what it is that they think the clicker has helped them with as handlers and perhaps why they think their previous methods weren't working or not working so well.

I guess, to a degree, I don't understand why people don't go "wow!! I used a verbal marker today and it worked great!!" and that it seems to be the clicker that all of a suddens opens up the door-ways for both dog and handler.

And by clicker "training" and seeing the results, do people then realise more clearly the concept of reward training, effects of good timing etc. etc.?

So I apologise if what I posted sounded wrong to you. Please feel free to contribute.

ETA: And oh, hey! Where do I get off? It's not 'my' thread anyway - it's Saxonpup's. Sorry if it seems I've taken over, Saxonpup. I am pleased that you have found success by using the clicker where you couldn't before. Happy days training with your dog .

Very happy to have this discussion in the thread Erny. It would have been a short thread otherwise - "I love clicker training" "me too" "me too" "Good."

Your question made me think too. I understood the concept of mark and reward, and *thought* I was doing it it properly. I was using "goodboy" said quickly as one word as my marker and trying to treat as quickly as possible - actually now that I think about it, I was trying to use the treat to mark but thinking I was marking with the word... I thought it was working quite well because Saxon actually learnt the commands he knew pre-clicker quite quickly.

I decided to try the clicker coz I wanted to get him reacting more quickly - as in sitting quickly every time, not sometimes casually lowering his butt to the ground while he considered whether the treat I had was good enough! - and had read that a clicker was good for differentiating between just doing something, and doing something properly.

I guess I didn't really believe I would get better results from a better marker word, like "yes", than I would with what I was already doing but the clicker seemed more distinctive. Now realising I wasn't marking properly anyway, I probably would still have had better results using a clear marker word. But the clicker has made it really easy for me to get the timing exactly right, and be really consistent.

Also, it's really clear to Saxon what the point of the clicker is, and I'm not sure that anything I said would get through to him in the same way. Like luvsablue said, I'm always babbling away to Saxon but the clicker will only ever be about learning that I want him to do something.

[Skitch]

I gotta agree - Clicker training is great! It really helps to define positve reinforcement to pups.. you can let them know that they've done the right thing soon as they do it once you've conditioned them to the clicker . Everyone told me Italian Greyhounds are impossible to train but my little chap can do some very advanced tricks all thanks to clicker training!

It works well for lots of species too.. I have clicker trained rats that can spin on command and run little agility courses .

[corvus]

It works well for lots of species too.. I have clicker trained rats that can spin on command and run little agility courses .

How cool! Do you have videos?

I "clicker trained" my hare to target and stand on his hind legs, but I used a visual marker because he seemed to respond to it better. He isn't all that great at sounds. My first foray into clicker training was with my rescue bunny, who at the time was less tame than my wild hare was. She wouldn't let anyone touch her. I got so far with various markers, but it wasn't until I tried the clicker that we finally broke through that last wall and she let me touch something other than her nose. She is now a lap bunny and lies upside down in my arms while I trim her nails. I still find it hard to believe she has come so far from that jumpy, timid rabbit we started out with. I don't know why a clicker worked where nothing else had. No idea. But it did something different.

[Skitch]

It works well for lots of species too.. I have clicker trained rats that can spin on command and run little agility courses .

How cool! Do you have videos?

I "clicker trained" my hare to target and stand on his hind legs, but I used a visual marker because he seemed to respond to it better. He isn't all that great at sounds. My first foray into clicker training was with my rescue bunny, who at the time was less tame than my wild hare was. She wouldn't let anyone touch her. I got so far with various markers, but it wasn't until I tried the clicker that we finally broke through that last wall and she let me touch something other than her nose. She is now a lap bunny and lies upside down in my arms while I trim her nails. I still find it hard to believe she has come so far from that jumpy, timid rabbit we started out with. I don't know why a clicker worked where nothing else had. No idea. But it did something different.

I do have this super old video of my favourite rat spinning but this was before I learnt the joys of clicker training:

. He now does it so much faster with the clicker ! Must get some new vids sometime..

Wow how strange! Rabbits are such clever animals. .

[Staranais]

But what is it that you guys see as miraculous (so to speak) in your training with the clicker that you couldn't get with a verbal marker "yes!". Was it that the clicker seemed to help you understand your own timing? Was it that you were unable to use the right voice tone with a verbal marker? Or was it that some didn't understand the concept of training (the same way as you are doing) using a verbal marker instead of a clicker?

Personally, I think the clicker is a really clear signal to the dog that they're in a "training space" where certain rules apply. It's such a very distinctive noise that it's easy for dogs to understand that this training time is different from regular time, there's no corrections, no chance of being wrong, so they can relax and have fun and focus on experimenting to earn the click. For the trainer, it's easier to communicate consistently and calmly, it's impossible to inadvertently use a frustrated tone of voice since you're not talking, and you're focused more on clicking the right thing than correcting the wrong thing. Not sure how to explain it better, sorry, I'm not sure that I've explained it adequately here! It's just more of a game for us when I bring out the clicker.

I should explain I use several "systems" to train different things - we do verbal marker and prey drive reward (tracking/formal obedience), as well as verbal marker and social play/praise/mild corrections (round the house obedience), and we also do clicker and food reward (learning tricks).

There is definitely a different mood when we use click/food as opposed to our other stuff. She's less intense, less drivey, less excited. But she's still focused and quite playful.

Possibly we'd get the same result if I was very very consistent with a single syllable marker when I trained verbally - I'm not, I'm crappy at sticking to one word and one precise way of saying it! However, I do think there is something about the distinctive sound of the clicker, and the "ritual" of picking one up, that would still make our clicker sessions subtly different from verbal marker training.

Sorry, I may have just made not much sense! Am typing as I think. And am tired!

[Simply Grand]

Staranais, you're making perfect sense, don't worry! I agree with you, I think the clicker does create a different mood. I think the dog gets that he is supposed to learn a particular thing right now. But I'm not sure it could be the only means of training.

I'm still new to this but it seems to be easier to teach specific behaviours/tricks than ongoing good behaviour with the clicker. For example, this week we're working on 'stand' and 'heel' because that's what we did at obedience. The clicker works quite well for these coz I can click as soon as Saxon gets in the position I want. He is coming along, although not as quickly as he did for shake.

However, I don't see how I could teach him to leave the cat alone with the clicker... if I clicked whenever he wasn't bothering the cat I don't think he'd get what I was clicking him for, so I think I still need corrections and praise etc as well.

[Simply Grand]

I also meant to say, I wonder if it works with other species because it take all human emotions out of training. It is literally just operant conditioning.

[corvus]

Well, given you can train an awesomely powerful "leave it" with a clicker, that's a good start to leaving the cat alone. Or there are a bunch of incompatible behaviours you can teach with a clicker. However, when it comes to aversion training you can't do that with a clicker.

I've been thinking about teaching Erik to leave the bunny alone when she's out. He leaves her alone when she's in her cage, but for some reason he gets tremendously excited about the bunny being out of her cage. He doesn't chase her, just barks at her and she hates it. I've been thinking of using her as a distraction during clicker training and teach him to go to his mat when he starts getting interested in the bunny. I think it's possible to condition an incompatible behaviour for these things. Especially if you reward with the right reward for the situation. If I were trying to train a dog that likes to chase cats to not chase cats I'd start with training the dog to go to their mat when they get excited by cats and reward with a tug game. I've no idea if it would work or not. Erik gets excited by cats out on the street, and maybe 60% of the time he'd respond by turning to me for a tug game. The rest of the time I would prompt him with his tug game cue and I'd have his full attention. I don't see why I couldn't teach him to go to his mat when he saw a cat if I rewarded it big enough, but that's him. And I haven't tried it.

[tez]

Jane and I have really enjoyed Clicker training. For whatever reason, I can mark a behaviour better with the clicker then I can with my mouth so I am sooo much more consistant with training Jane. In this respect, I think Jane is less confused about what she is supposed to do and therefore more relaxed and interested in the 'game'.

I also read that a dog processes the clicker sound in a different part of their brain than they process the verbal sound which can influence their ability to 'attend'.

[Aidan]

However, I don't see how I could teach him to leave the cat alone with the clicker...

Controlled set-ups that build nurturing, "pack-drive" related behaviours.

[Simply Grand]

However, I don't see how I could teach him to leave the cat alone with the clicker...

Controlled set-ups that build nurturing, "pack-drive" related behaviours.

I don't know what that means! :cool:

[sas]

Erny,

I don't know how to explain our situation....Dante just responds to clicker training so much better than he does a verbal marker, I believe my timing is correct with the verbal markers.

For me personaly, what I like about the click is that it holds no emotion, there is no tone change in the voice to confuse the dog either.

[poodlefan]

My guess about the "success" of clicker training is that trainers mark better and reward more when using a clicker than with other means.

Its harder to forget to do either with a clicker in your hand.

Your voice is used for many purposes - the clicker for only one.. reward. Dogs learn that fast.

[megan_]

the problem with "yes" is that you use it a lot in normal conversation, whereas a clicker is a special marker.

I only use the clicker for free shaping. This way my boy sees the clicker and knows he has to try different things. His eyes light up when I bring out the clicker and he immediately starts touching things with his nose and paw! As a general marker I use a verbal command ("yes").

[Aidan]

However, I don't see how I could teach him to leave the cat alone with the clicker...

Controlled set-ups that build nurturing, "pack-drive" related behaviours.

I don't know what that means!

Suffice to say, it can be done I'd probably have to demonstrate. Basically you want the dog and the cat to be hanging out calmly together, various forms of restraint or protection could be used so long as they were used ethically. Both animals can be clicker trained.

[dandybrush]

Erny,

I don't know how to explain our situation....Dante just responds to clicker training so much better than he does a verbal marker, I believe my timing is correct with the verbal markers.

For me personaly, what I like about the click is that it holds no emotion, there is no tone change in the voice to confuse the dog either.

yep raz is the same he just focuses starts thinking when i have the clicker out