Seizures

[haven]

I don't know about epilepsy, but before I lost my Loki dog last year he started having seizures. The Vet said it was likely a tumor in his brain and I didn't want to put him through the stress of a scan and surgery as he was already a highly anxious dog. He was put on seizure medication which seemed to stop the seizures (at least, I never witnessed any, or any evidence that he had one when I wasn't there until the night he died). I did notice that his gradually anxiety increased and he stopped wanting to leave his bed to go outside or even to another part of the house. Then one night he had a horrid seizure, the worst I have ever seen (and I've had other animals that had regular seizures) and he was extremely stressed afterwards. Within a half an hour he had another seizure, and bit himself quite badly, and then another minutes after. After that third seizure he never really recovered. I don't think he knew where he was or who I was I couldn't tell when he was having a seizure and when he wasn't, it was like he was in a seizure state all of the time but occasionally he would yelp or whine in distress. His entire body was rigid and when I tried to force his mouth open to give him an anti convulsant his mouth sprang shut like a trap and I got bitten. I called a number of Vets but nobody would come out and I couldn't get him into the car to take him anywhere. After awhile I managed to get onto an after hours Vet who came out and I asked them to euthanise him. I would have liked to have more time to investigate what was going on but he was distressed and in pain and I felt like it was an emergency situation. I had been thinking for awhile about his quality of life because I already felt like it was quickly reducing and I think it was just time for him to let go. He had always had such a hard life and had given me so much effort in trying to work through his anxiety issues and I just didn't think he could recover and still have any meaningful quality of life. It was the most horrible and distressing thing I think I have ever had to witness and the worst possible way for him to go, not at all what I wanted for him

[~Anne~]

I have read and heard about dogs becoming increasingly aggressive with seizures. Thankfully, Monte just gets cuddlier and more docile.

Okay, don't read anything into this as it's a completely neutral question, but if he gets more of anything, isn't that an indication that they are having some sort of significant impact on his life? I guess I mean to say that I take any change in behaviour to be an indication that something is not right. I treat changes to more sooky behaviour as a concern. I would obviously never put a dog down solely on the grounds that they were being sooky all of a sudden, but I do think it warrants examination as much as increasingly aggressive behaviour does.

In the end I think the only one that has a right to make a judgement call are the people that love the animals and live with them. If you love them you make the right choice for them regardless of what that does to you.

Yes, but the seizures do impact on his life. He has an illness. Any illness is bound to have an impact. I don't mean to infer it hasn't and I have stated that his brain cells would be being killed off during each cluster. He is also lethargic at times and restless (sounds odd but it isnt with pheno) and he suffers from ataxia.' He has injure dhimself several times and he has suffered from bromide toxicity once and required emergency treatment.

The drugs and his condition do have side affects. My question though is quality of life. Just because he has an illness and is on drugs in an attempt to control the illness does not mean his quality of life is poor.

Monte has had epilepsy for over 6 years now. I expect that he would change as he grows old and the seizures take their toll. Having seizures puts a tremendous load on the heart too so I am always worried it will suddenly give out during a cluster. He is now 8 years old. For a dog that has had the number of seizures he has had and will have in the futre, I don't expect he will live till he is "ancient". I do hope to keep his quality of life at an acceptable level until his demise though.

Monte is under the constant care of my Vets and I have every faith in them collaborating with me to ensure he lives the best life possible. His last blood work was only last week. His symptoms, reactions, seizures and life is recorded and monitored at a minimum of every 6 months with his Vets, when required with his specialist (Georgina Childs) and every day with me. We have dutifully recorded every seizure he has ever had. I have my alarm set for 5am every day of the year, rain hail or late night so that I can ensure his medication is alwys administered every 12 hours.

However, it isn't about what I do, it is about the perception that a dog that has regular seizures does not have a 'quality of life'. That is the factor I don't understand. As I said in my OP, if he is happy and not in pain, is his qaulity of life such that he should be euth'd. Seizures do not hurt.

[~Anne~]

Impossible to say until you've been there personally but I feel that if the dog was having physical seizures (do dogs even get the staring type?) often then I'd probably PTS.

Why though? I was hoping someone would say that, because I don't understand why people say and do precisely that. Seizures aren't painful to the dog, only to the humans who watch... except it isn't pain that we feel watching it but more like sympathy and stress.

[~Anne~]

Corvus - what kind of investigation are you thinking needs to occur??????

The same you would do if the dog became aggressive. Whatever that may be. I said examination, which might just mean watching closely for any signs you might be missing and having a good objective think about it.

In epilepsy, it is largely the 'unknown'. I am not exactly sure of the reason for the aggression but I would imagine it is to do with the impulses and electric circuits doing something that affect the part of the brain that controls aggression.

Monte is becoming more docile as he ages and as his brain becomes more affected. The brain damage is also largely unknown, but I can see the gradual change in him over the years. This cahnge may have happened anyway without the epilepsy, but he has never been free of it to know really if it is.

Haven -

Thats is so sad. It does sound like it may have been more than just epilepsy, and I agree that I would have considered euthanasia in this situation also.

Edited April 29, 2010 by ~Anne~

[MolassesLass]

Impossible to say until you've been there personally but I feel that if the dog was having physical seizures (do dogs even get the staring type?) often then I'd probably PTS.

Why though? I was hoping someone would say that, because I don't understand why people say and do precisely that. Seizures aren't painful to the dog, only to the humans who watch... except it isn't pain that we feel watching it but more like sympathy and stress.

Probably because of anthro.... humanising the dog, in that I'd hate to live that way. Secondly the stress of constantly worrying is the dog seizing and something really bad is happening when I'm not with it. Because seizures look painful, because the drugs to control it have so many possible side effects and because there are so many healthy dogs out there to have and lastly as a breeder it wouldn't be a dog I could breed from nor would I feel ok rehoming. It all just adds up to a situation where I think it would be better to PTS. Maybe only better for me but as I don't see a humane death as a negative thing for the dog, I see no harm in that being the reason.

I may be far too attached should it ever happen to an adult dog of mine, to be able to make that decision but that's how I feel now.

[~Anne~]

Thanks ML, I appreciate your honesty and your response. Perhaps if I hadn't lived with a dog with epilepsy then I might think differently?? However, given that I took Monte on knowing he had epilpesy and that he would be euthanased if an appropriate home wasn't found, it has altered the way I view it? Maybe I am seeking to be a 'saviour' still?

[frufru]

Big hugs to you Haven - that was indeed a very sad way for your dog to die - it is so awful when your dog needs help and you can't get it because the vets are too far away or unwilling to come out - glad you were finally able to end his suffering but what a terrible thing for you to go through.

[CaseyKay]

My girl KC has epilepsy and has since was 18 months old. She is now 8 years old. She is on 2 types of medication but she is a happy active girl. I could probably increase her meds and she would have NO seizures but at the moment she has a single grand mal every 3 weeks to a month. 5 minutes out of her life a month and otherwise she is fine. She did used to cluster (like Monte) but adding a second drug miraculously changed that, it doesn't for all dogs but it did for her.

Even though she is what I think is an "easy epileptic" to own, still I know some people don't understand. We walk in the evenings with a groups of friends from our neighbourhood and KC had a seizure in front of them a couple of months ago. I made sure she could not hurt herself, I timed the seizure, and that I was there to reassure her when she came around as sometimes she is frightened right after and better for her to keep lying down than get up and stagger and fall down. When she got up after about 3 minutes resting I saw the 3 people we walk with were crying. They knew she was epileptic but that was the first seizure they had seen. Grand mals are not nice, she foams a lot at the mouth, loses control of her bladder, makes a keening sort of noise at the start and of course the actual clonic part can be scary. All of them told that that was one more seizure that they ever hoped to see and that they could not cope with that.

One of them helped me walk my 3 dogs home and she said if she owned KC she would have her PTS as it was "just too awful to bear". That surprised me, she sees KC almost every evening for a 1 hour plus walk and she knows KC is a happy bouncy girl with a good life, who enjoys things like hooning in the long grass paddocks and chasing hares. By the time we got home, a 5 minute walk, my girl was almost back to normal. She will be tired after a seizure and sleepy the next day and then back to normal until next time.

Probably some combination of the meds and the seizures will shorten KC's life. We will deal with that when we have to.

And Anne, you are a braver person than me. I love KC with all my heart and will fight for her and with her to the end but I had loved her for 18 months when she started to seizure. I could not knowingly adopt a dog with epilepsy

[~Anne~]

My girl KC has epilepsy and has since was 18 months old. She is now 8 years old. She is on 2 types of medication but she is a happy active girl. I could probably increase her meds and she would have NO seizures but at the moment she has a single grand mal every 3 weeks to a month. 5 minutes out of her life a month and otherwise she is fine. She did used to cluster (like Monte) but adding a second drug miraculously changed that, it doesn't for all dogs but it did for her.

Even though she is what I think is an "easy epileptic" to own, still I know some people don't understand. We walk in the evenings with a groups of friends from our neighbourhood and KC had a seizure in front of them a couple of months ago. I made sure she could not hurt herself, I timed the seizure, and that I was there to reassure her when she came around as sometimes she is frightened right after and better for her to keep lying down than get up and stagger and fall down. When she got up after about 3 minutes resting I saw the 3 people we walk with were crying. They knew she was epileptic but that was the first seizure they had seen. Grand mals are not nice, she foams a lot at the mouth, loses control of her bladder, makes a keening sort of noise at the start and of course the actual clonic part can be scary. All of them told that that was one more seizure that they ever hoped to see and that they could not cope with that.

One of them helped me walk my 3 dogs home and she said if she owned KC she would have her PTS as it was "just too awful to bear". That surprised me, she sees KC almost every evening for a 1 hour plus walk and she knows KC is a happy bouncy girl with a good life, who enjoys things like hooning in the long grass paddocks and chasing hares. By the time we got home, a 5 minute walk, my girl was almost back to normal. She will be tired after a seizure and sleepy the next day and then back to normal until next time.

Probably some combination of the meds and the seizures will shorten KC's life. We will deal with that when we have to.

And Anne, you are a braver person than me. I love KC with all my heart and will fight for her and with her to the end but I had loved her for 18 months when she started to seizure. I could not knowingly adopt a dog with epilepsy ;)

Thanks KC, Monte contiues to cluster even with both Kbr and Pb. His last levels were mid range which was great though. We had a big scare the other month when he had 4 seizures within 20 minutes and we thought he was going into status. Recently (last 12 months), he has started a new pattern and only having a single seizure and not a cluster which was great, so the sudden and quick seizures left us a little concerned. Although, as always, he threw us for another wobbly a few weeks back when he had two and there was an hour in between the two! This is another new pattern we have never had.

The bolded bit is what spurned my thread. That is the kind of reasoning and comment I find common with dogs with epilepsy and I think it is really awful.

[MolassesLass]

Thanks ML, I appreciate your honesty and your response. Perhaps if I hadn't lived with a dog with epilepsy then I might think differently?? However, given that I took Monte on knowing he had epilpesy and that he would be euthanased if an appropriate home wasn't found, it has altered the way I view it? Maybe I am seeking to be a 'saviour' still?

Or the "boiling a frog" effect.*

I look at it from a perspective of going from nothing to imagining things as bad as the could possibly be (I've only seen seizures in dogs or cats that have been poisoned and had my mum explain the horror she had with having them in her teens). Whereas you probably started with a seizure here and there, then started some meds and then progressed and so forth to the stage you're at. Things don't seem as bad or are as emotionally testing in increments.

* Put a frog in boiling water and it jumps out. Put it in cold water and slowly heat it to boiling and it will just sit there.

Edited April 29, 2010 by molasseslass

[16Paws]

It's no different to the people who will PTS rather than pay $500 for a vet bill because $500 is too much to spend on 'the dog'. To me that seems horrible as I have been in the position where I needed urgent funds for a pet and I begged, borrowed and well.. I didn't steal it But to other people, it's the logical and natural decision.

Unlike some other serious illnesses, epilepsy has a visual (and audio) element which most people (including myself) find very distressing. When my cat was having seizures it was horrible but I knew I needed to be there for him and keep an eye on the times, etc so that's what you do.

I can easily imagine that other people might not be able to deal with it (e.g. My OH is much more affected by the seizures then I am). I agree with what a previous poster said about it being a very misunderstood illness. With the way the body contorts and the sounds that can be emitted, it is very hard to believe the patient isn't aware or being hurt.

[~Anne~]

I love the frog analogy and had never heard that before.

Very true 16paws. I guess I have become immune to the reactions and this was pointed out when a relative was staying with me. Monte had a cluster and she was amazed at how calm I was.

I guess I have seen too many now for it to really shock me. I feel sad for him more than anything and I wish I could stop them, but I just do what I have to do - usually, that is draw up a syringe of diazepam, grab paper towels for the drool and occassional urine spill, turn the air con onto cool and alternate sitting with him and holding him to prevent injury when he goes manic.

Edited April 29, 2010 by ~Anne~

[sandgrubber]

After hearing of others experiences with epilepsy -- which are very different and much sadder than my own -- I apologise for my previous comment that I'd as soon euthanise a child for epilepsy. There are, apparently, situations where death is a merciful solution. But it should not be a knee jerk reaction. In my experience, many epileptic dogs lead long, happy lives and cause no problems . . . other than worry to the owner (watching seizures can be distressing, especially a grand mal, the first time).

[schnauzer]

Hi Anne,

You know your own dog and you will always know when enough is enough.

My GSD had a form of epilepsy and was well medicated. He had a wonderful quality of life, was walked every day, went to the beach etc. and was absolutely treasured. When he did seize it was awful, but my vet told me that he did not realise what was happening and afterwards he would be quite but then back to a normal dog. He was carefully monitored by my wonderful vets. He lived until he was 14 years and IMO had a wonderful life. I always thought he would die from a seizure and he eventually died from a mild dose of pancreatitis - go figure.

[~Anne~]

Thanks, and what a gorgeous picture Schnauzer! I love it!!