Seizures

[~Anne~]

I always feel a sense of horror when I hear people talk of euthanasing a dog with epilepsy or when I hear the phrase 'low quality of life' used to describe some dogs who experience it. In fact, I would say I was probably hypersensitive to these phrases and statements when used in the context of dogs with this condition.

My Pug, Monte, has had hundreds and hundreds of seizures so far over his life. I mean literally hundreds and hundreds. The last count was in excess of 300. I have had comments thrown at me on the rare occassion that he should be 'put to sleep' and, I confess to taking offence to it, he is my dog afterall and I adore and love him.

However, I can not agree with those who think he does not have a good quality of life. His seizures do not hurt him. He is most likely not even aware of what is happening. If he is not aware nor in pain, does it affect the quality of his life?

The drugs he is on do have side affects, and I often wonder what he would be like as a healthy normal dog without them. His lethargy at times I don't believe ruins the quality of his life, although it does mean that I would categorise his life quality as 'good' rather than excellent. Good is still higher than low or poor which I would use to describe a dog in a backyard without regular interaction however.

What constitutes 'low quality of life' for a dog with epilepsy for you? Is it the number, frequency or severity of seizures? The drugs and their affects? The 'stigma' attached to the condition?

[16Paws]

I don't have personal experience of a dog with Epilepsy but one of my cats has the condition. I don't feel my cat has any less quality of life to our other 2 cats. He is on medication twice daily but we make the medcine a treat for him.

He does have to have regular blood tests which is very stressful (he doesn't travel well) for him but he would be in this stressful state for any vet visit regardless of his condition.

When he was diagnosed our vet explained that he would have little idea during the seizure of what was happening and probably no memory afterwards - so while they are horrible for us to watch, we would be much more affected by it then him.

Luckily his seizures have been controlled (knock on wood) by medication so he has not had one for some time. If it got to the stage where he was affected by seizures more than he was lucid (for lack of a better word) then it would be time to consider his quality of life.

If he ever had cluster seizures again and it resulted in brain damage or it got the the stage where further seizures had a very high risk of causing him injury/pain - then we would be considering his quality of life.

If his medication started to cause liver damage, then it would be time to consider the options.

I think quality of life is a very individual decision - 2 dogs with the same disease may not have the same quality of life depending on the affects, etc.

I'm wondering if the people you are referring to feel the same way about a child with Epilepsy - or is it just that dogs are seen as disposable...

[~Anne~]

If he ever had cluster seizures again and it resulted in brain damage or it got the the stage where further seizures had a very high risk of causing him injury/pain - then we would be considering his quality of life.

Thanks for your reply 16Paws.

It sounds a little sad I guess, but I believe that my dog has had many of his brain cells killed off by his clusters. He isn't the sharpest tool in the shed and I feel he is getting worse. However, I still don't think this affects his quality of life.

I am not sure when or if I will have to decide if euthanasia is the better option. I hope it is never to be honest.

Edited April 29, 2010 by ~Anne~

[W Sibs]

I always feel a sense of horror when I hear people talk of euthanasing a dog with epilepsy or when I hear the phrase 'low quality of life' used to describe some dogs who experience it. In fact, I would say I was probably hypersensitive to these phrases and statements when used in the context of dogs with this condition.

I feel the same.

[16Paws]

It sounds a little sad I guess, but I believe that my dog has had many of his brain cells killed off by his clusters. He isn't the sharpest tool in the shed and I feel he is getting worse. However, I still don't think this affects his quality of life.

I am not sure when or if I will have to decide if euthanasia is the better option. I hope it is never to be honest.

They don't have to be sharp to be happy Only you and your vet will know when it's time and I really hope it's never as well

[juice]

i think that there are lots of conditions worse than epilepsy that can make life tough for dogs, its just alot of people don't understand epilepsy

[sandgrubber]

I wouldn't consider having a dog PTS cause it has epilepsy any more than I'd consider euthanasing a child with the same condition.

[Dogsfevr]

quality of life is exactly that .

We board a number of seizure dogs & some dont have a life,they are so heavily dosed they are in La La land & just walked around comatosed .You can see in there eyes they arent't there & for me that isnt life.

Should they be put down that again is a personnal choice but as long as the dogs interests come first & not the humans then that is all that matters.

That is alot of seizures for a dog on meds so obviously he is at the worse end of the scale BUt you are the only person who can make the choice & if your happy fine,if people make comment then i dont have an issue because there entitled to there opinion as much as we make our choice to keep the dog.

I had a dog with major issues & would i do it again ,no.

I count my self very lucky that i worked from home & could tend to his needs & ensure his safety but if i worked away then i can honestly say i would have PTS much earlier because in his condition & home alone wouldnt have been fair

[frufru]

Owning a dog who thankfully seems to have grown out of his seizure this is a question we did think about in the beginning. We also have friends whose dog started having seizures after she survived a brown snake bite - although medicated she actually died during a seizure less than 2 years after being bitten.

When Ace started having seizures I was showing him for a breeder - as he was no longer useful to her we adopted him - I have a fair idea what would have happened to him otherwise.

I don't think it is fair to answer this question for other people - everyone deals with illness/disabiltiy differently.

For us we would pts in the following circumstanes - bearing in mind that Ace is a big dog at 30 kg who was somtimes aggressivess when recovering from a seizure.

The seizures could not be controlled through medication and were frequent (Ace did not have a quick recovery from seizures and his body was sore for several days afterwards, his size also made things difficult sometimes)

The medication started to cause liver failure

Brain damage as a result of seizures made the dog physically difficult to handle -eg aggression towards people or our other dogs developed.

Thankfully we did not have to face such a decision - but I would never presume to judge others who had.

Edited April 29, 2010 by frufru

[Amika]

I've known two dogs with epilepsy, one was a GSDx the other a Curly Retriever. Both owned by different people, both used medication to manage their pets, but as the epilepsy got worse both dogs became agressive. One to the point that he cleared a 6 foot fence in an instant while his owner was out the front of the yard and attacked and killed a Maltese as it approached his owner the other was growling at his owners, (out of fear). Both dogs were euthanised. I guess it's something you have to manage and only you know whats best for you and your dog. It's certainly not a nice thing to have to cope with.

[cointreau]

Thankfully I haven't had to treat a dog with seizures but if my girl started to have them I would look at how she was on medication and the frequency of the seizures and whether she has what I believe to be quality of life. Quality of life is a decision that can only be made by the carer of the dog the person who knows them best.

[~Anne~]

I have read and heard about dogs becoming increasingly aggressive with seizures. Thankfully, Monte just gets cuddlier and more docile.

On the other side of the coin I have also read about other dogs attacking the dog having the seizure and doing extensive damage, and in one case, killing the dog! My other Pugs are soemtimes curious about Monte but apart from looking at him or sniffing him, they leave him be while he is haing a seizure.

[cowanbree]

I have had to make the horrible decision to pts a dog because she was seizuring. I could not keep her safe is the short and the narrow of it. I was not able to stablise her to a point where she only had the odd seizure so she couldn’t be left with any of the dogs as they would attack her and I had stairs everywhere so on several occasion when she had a seizure and was running round frantically as she was prone to do afterwards she fell down stairs and injured herself, once laying in a ditch down the back of the section for hours until I found her. I quite simply didn’t have the set up to keep her separate and given her age (15yrs) I didn’t think that was fair on her anyway. She was frantic after a seizure and if I wasn’t there it went on for hours. She was too nice a dog to have to live like this, no quality of life for her

Broke my heart doing it but at some point you do have to consider the family as a whole and what can be worked round for everyone. To be fair the deciding factor was she was facing a partial foot amputation as she got gangrene in on of her legs as a result of this.

[frufru]

My girls attacking Ace was something I did worry about and he was seperated from them when we went out. At the time we had 3 large dogs whom I walked together and Ace had several seizures while we were out walking - thankfully there were people around who came to help me (strangers) - I always had my phone with me to call for someone to come pick us up if we were any distance from home - nice when the dog is covered in slobber, faeces and urine.

You poor thing Cowanbree - thankfully we had no stairs - Ace sometimes did the mad running before seizing - thankfully not while I was out - managing such a dog is not always easy.

Edited April 29, 2010 by frufru

[~Anne~]

I have had to make the horrible decision to pts a dog because she was seizuring. I could not keep her safe is the short and the narrow of it. I was not able to stablise her to a point where she only had the odd seizure so she couldn’t be left with any of the dogs as they would attack her and I had stairs everywhere so on several occasion when she had a seizure and was running round frantically as she was prone to do afterwards she fell down stairs and injured herself, once laying in a ditch down the back of the section for hours until I found her. I quite simply didn’t have the set up to keep her separate and given her age (15yrs) I didn’t think that was fair on her anyway. She was frantic after a seizure and if I wasn’t there it went on for hours. She was too nice a dog to have to live like this, no quality of life for her

Broke my heart doing it but at some point you do have to consider the family as a whole and what can be worked round for everyone. To be fair the deciding factor was she was facing a partial foot amputation as she got gangrene in on of her legs as a result of this.

Wow, that's awful for her and for you and your family.

I once found Monte at 5am squished up between the gas bottle for the BBQ and the fence. Several times we have come home or woken up to discover him limping and we have assumed he has injured himself during a seizure episode. We have a few small steps in the yard and one end of the garden is about 1m off the ground, but overall, our yard is safe and we have endeavoured to make it that way for him and because we had numerous blind rescues come through when I had the rescue operating.

[corvus]

I have read and heard about dogs becoming increasingly aggressive with seizures. Thankfully, Monte just gets cuddlier and more docile.

Okay, don't read anything into this as it's a completely neutral question, but if he gets more of anything, isn't that an indication that they are having some sort of significant impact on his life? I guess I mean to say that I take any change in behaviour to be an indication that something is not right. I treat changes to more sooky behaviour as a concern. I would obviously never put a dog down solely on the grounds that they were being sooky all of a sudden, but I do think it warrants examination as much as increasingly aggressive behaviour does.

In the end I think the only one that has a right to make a judgement call are the people that love the animals and live with them. If you love them you make the right choice for them regardless of what that does to you.

[frufru]

I would have thought that given what these medications have to do in order to control seizures it is not really surprising that there are side effects (sadly they did for my grandmother when she started haveing seizures at about 80yrs - her mind was not as sharp) People don't give these meds because its an easy option. Corvus - what kind of investigation are you thinking needs to occur??????

[MolassesLass]

Impossible to say until you've been there personally but I feel that if the dog was having physical seizures (do dogs even get the staring type?) often then I'd probably PTS.

[corvus]

Corvus - what kind of investigation are you thinking needs to occur??????

The same you would do if the dog became aggressive. Whatever that may be. I said examination, which might just mean watching closely for any signs you might be missing and having a good objective think about it.

[Kempe]

As I've said on other threads I had a collie x that took epileptic fits from 2 years old till he was PTS at 14 due to a heart condition.

We used to walk him every day, go to the beach etc but when the epilepsy struck it was difficult to take him anywhere as he took a fit, so after about 2 years of trying we consulted with the vet and decided to keep him within a familiar area ie house and back garden.

So for 10 years of his life he never went out of those areas.

Quality of life..... some may think he had none but he was able to fetch and retrieve a ball, frisbee etc, I built him jumps so we had a wee agility course in the garden and he had a great life, plenty of exercise and integration with the family.

As long as he was kept in that environment his fits were decently controlled but we had to be careful of things like lawnmowers, electic drills or hammering as they seemed to bring it on, so we would bring him inside.

When the wife did the vacuuming I would go outside with him and do agility.

PTS was never an option and he wasn't groggy with the medication but going over the front door step seemed to be a trigger for him.