Pregnant Bitch To Perth For Tail Docking

[ellz]

I am having some difficulty understanding what the problem is? Do you not want the bitch, do you not want the bitch on breeders terms? Did you want an undocked dog?

To answer your question, plenty of pregnant bitches travel, as do pregnant women. Planes and cars are both air conditioned. Dogs tend to sleep through car trips.

Pregnant bitches (and cattle, and horses) often travel from another country to Australia. I don't think vets in two countries, or the vets at AQIS would allow that if it was cruel.

As far as travelling the pups back from Perth, I don't see a problem with that either.

Many of us have had to travel pups for hours following caesarians, and I have never seen any pup have any adverse reaction.

There are plenty of breeders of previously docked breeds who believe it is cruel for a previously docked breed to have a tail. Some feel so strongly about it, they walked away, and either do not breed, or breed a different, tailed breed.

Some previous breeders now do not breed, but they buy imported docked dogs to show. Or, if they have boxers, they buy a bobtail dog.

Others organised to have pups docked in Perth or NZ.

Some breeders did and do travel bitches, some do not. I am not sure what "normal" is, but it is not unusual.

When I bred docked dogs, no one ever asked me who docked them. Is this an issue?

If you are not happy, I suggest you take it up with the breeder?

I own the bitch once she had a litter, its not about docked tails, interested to know if its cruel to the dog to travel after a litter and caesar. The breeder did not tell me the dog went to Perth and at that time did not know the vet so makes me wonder why. I was told a pregnant bitch can't fly, I understand your comments regarding car travel thank you for you comments. Breeder is not complying to terms of contract.

And I ask again......did you have a written agreement?

Sorry I forgot to answer. Yes I do.

Were these so called "breaches" of clauses contained within the agreement? Did they specify that the bitch had to remain on the premises of the "breeder" at all times or that the puppies were, or were not to be docked? Did the agreement specify any payment?

You should probably seek legal advice if you wish to take things further. The controlling bodies will not get involved in what they term a civil matter.

[Dogsfevr]

I presume your trying to get the angle it was cruel ??

What the issue you have (according to you & the contract ) is a breach of contract that you say you werent told about.

If this is the case like Ellz said then you need to pursue it through the civil angle.

Having said that the bitch had to be sent to someone who co owned the bitch & the prefix for it to be done here,very easy to find out by viewing litter registrations

[Graeme]

I presume your trying to get the angle it was cruel ??

What the issue you have (according to you & the contract ) is a breach of contract that you say you werent told about.

If this is the case like Ellz said then you need to pursue it through the civil angle.

Having said that the bitch had to be sent to someone who co owned the bitch & the prefix for it to be done here,very easy to find out by viewing litter registrations

Cruel angle, not at all. Within the breeding section I'm seeking advice.

Yes I will pursue through other means

Thank you for your advice

[Graeme]

I am having some difficulty understanding what the problem is? Do you not want the bitch, do you not want the bitch on breeders terms? Did you want an undocked dog?

To answer your question, plenty of pregnant bitches travel, as do pregnant women. Planes and cars are both air conditioned. Dogs tend to sleep through car trips.

Pregnant bitches (and cattle, and horses) often travel from another country to Australia. I don't think vets in two countries, or the vets at AQIS would allow that if it was cruel.

As far as travelling the pups back from Perth, I don't see a problem with that either.

Many of us have had to travel pups for hours following caesarians, and I have never seen any pup have any adverse reaction.

There are plenty of breeders of previously docked breeds who believe it is cruel for a previously docked breed to have a tail. Some feel so strongly about it, they walked away, and either do not breed, or breed a different, tailed breed.

Some previous breeders now do not breed, but they buy imported docked dogs to show. Or, if they have boxers, they buy a bobtail dog.

Others organised to have pups docked in Perth or NZ.

Some breeders did and do travel bitches, some do not. I am not sure what "normal" is, but it is not unusual.

When I bred docked dogs, no one ever asked me who docked them. Is this an issue?

If you are not happy, I suggest you take it up with the breeder?

I own the bitch once she had a litter, its not about docked tails, interested to know if its cruel to the dog to travel after a litter and caesar. The breeder did not tell me the dog went to Perth and at that time did not know the vet so makes me wonder why. I was told a pregnant bitch can't fly, I understand your comments regarding car travel thank you for you comments. Breeder is not complying to terms of contract.

And I ask again......did you have a written agreement?

Sorry I forgot to answer. Yes I do.

Were these so called "breaches" of clauses contained within the agreement? Did they specify that the bitch had to remain on the premises of the "breeder" at all times or that the puppies were, or were not to be docked? Did the agreement specify any payment?

You should probably seek legal advice if you wish to take things further. The controlling bodies will not get involved in what they term a civil matter.

Tail docking is not the issue. Sorry, I can not discuss the agreement.

Thank you for your advice

[ellz]

If you cannot discuss the agreement, then you cannot expect advice.

If you are absolutely convinced that the breeder is in breach, then your only recourse if you wish to take things further is through a lawyer and civil means. And that is going to cost you some pretty serious dollars.

Good luck. Hope you get it sorted to your satisfication.

[Graeme]

If you cannot discuss the agreement, then you cannot expect advice.

If you are absolutely convinced that the breeder is in breach, then your only recourse if you wish to take things further is through a lawyer and civil means. And that is going to cost you some pretty serious dollars.

Good luck. Hope you get it sorted to your satisfication.

You are correct, happy to discuss once I seek advise.

Edited April 28, 2010 by Graeme

[Aziah]

I don't get what the issue is then, is it that the bitch was transported to Perth and back again? No doubt she was well cared for...if you agree to having a bitch on breeders terms then really it's the breeders business as it's their litter.

I don't get the problem so I really can't offer any advice or an opinion unless someone can clarify?

Edited April 28, 2010 by Aziah

[Christina]

I understand what you are concerned about.

Matter of personal opinion really. I would not do this. I like mine to have it stress free, have their own safe & familiar birthing place & be left there in peace to care for their puppies, not ferried from state to state especially after a ceasarian.

Lesson learned the hard way. Everyone has different standards of care & what they consider right & wrong.

I would think that when you had your agreement initially you never thought this particular scenario would crop up.

More care to detail needed for future. Contracts are tricky.

[Aziah]

I understand what you are concerned about.

Matter of personal opinion really. I would not do this. I like mine to have it stress free, have their own safe & familiar birthing place & be left there in peace to care for their puppies, not ferried from state to state especially after a ceasarian.

Lesson learned the hard way. Everyone has different standards of care & what they consider right & wrong.

I would think that when you had your agreement initially you never thought this particular scenario would crop up.

More care to detail needed for future. Contracts are tricky.

I agree with you (and not something I'd ever do either) but it seems that this isn't the issue rather something to do with a breach of contract...

[Jed]

Good luck with it anyhow.

[ellz]

I understand what you are concerned about.

Matter of personal opinion really. I would not do this. I like mine to have it stress free, have their own safe & familiar birthing place & be left there in peace to care for their puppies, not ferried from state to state especially after a ceasarian.

Lesson learned the hard way. Everyone has different standards of care & what they consider right & wrong.

I would think that when you had your agreement initially you never thought this particular scenario would crop up.

More care to detail needed for future. Contracts are tricky.

I agree with you (and not something I'd ever do either) but it seems that this isn't the issue rather something to do with a breach of contract...

I think there seem to be a number of issues all colliding into one with a lot of red herrings thrown in for flavour.

I'm glad I'm not the only one having problems trying to understand them all.

Good luck to the OP. Hope you get it sorted to your satisfaction.

And a lesson to all of us breeders (as if we needed any more! ) ....put EVERYTHING in writing and don't leave anything open for interpretation or discussion.

[Andisa]

Since it is over and done with there is nothing more you can do now - unless there is another litter involved in the contract.

[Graeme]

Since it is over and done with there is nothing more you can do now - unless there is another litter involved in the contract.

Its just a general question no other litter involved. I honored my side of the contract.

[Graeme]

Who do you report a breeder too? Are there governing bodies? (All PM’s strictly kept confidential)

[angelsun]

Without getting into details of your contract, unless you can show that the breeder transported the bitch against written permission there isn't much you can report.

The bottom line is that you have a bitch on breeders terms. That bitch was sent somewhere to whelp and have tails docked. This sort of thing isn't new or exciting although I wouldn't do it, it's done all the time and without stress or harm to the bitch and/or litter. The bitch will be coming back to you when she is done her motherly duties. You probably have no claim to pups as this was a breeder term litter, but even if you did, if the pup is healthy and fine, there are no drama's.

Even if worse case, the bitch became ill, the breeder is responsible for her care, although the future of a litter will in most cases not take precident over the welfare of the bitch, but as you have no claim to the litter, it really wouldn't have mattered anyway.

The bitch did not become ill, she whelped a litter which you have no claim towards as a breeder term litter, you will get the bitch back when she is done.

I still do not see any possible breach, simply with the breeder choosing to whelp the litter somewhere other than their own loungeroom or study. As there has been no fatalities, it really doesn't matter where she whelped, or even that tails were done which if prior to the date mentioned, would have been legal.

I think you need to discuss your concerns with your breeder as to what you feel may have been in breach before you go off attempting to create a mountain out of a mole hill.

[Jed]

Who do you report a breeder too? Are there governing bodies? (All PM’s strictly kept confidential)

It's difficult to advise without knowing the terms of the breeding contract, or even what you are unhappy about.

If you think there is a breach of the code of conduct of the canine council, report the breeder to them. Each state has one, and if you go to the ANKC website, it will tell you how to contact yours.

Anything else is seen as a civil matter by the canine councils, and they will advise you to seek legal advice, and take the matter through the courts.

Angelsun

The bottom line is that you have a bitch on breeders terms. That bitch was sent somewhere to whelp and have tails docked. This sort of thing isn't new or exciting although I wouldn't do it, it's done all the time and without stress or harm to the bitch and/or litter. The bitch will be coming back to you when she is done her motherly duties. You probably have no claim to pups as this was a breeder term litter, but even if you did, if the pup is healthy and fine, there are no drama's.

We don't know what Graeme's problem is, whether it is transport, docking, name of the vet or whatever, so it's all only speculation.

Edited May 1, 2010 by Jed

[yarracully]

I don't know the original poster nor their issues but I personally would be concerned for my dog if she were transported away. May not be cruel in any way, but I would much prefer to know where my dog was at any point in time. If I were to take a dog under breeders terms such as described I would be making sure I knew where my dog was going while fulfilling the obligation.

When my bitches whelp they do it here and remain here the entire time they are with the pups. I am a bit paranoid with moving my dogs before and after whelping, so No I wouldn't do it.

[Andisa]

I don't know the original poster nor their issues but I personally would be concerned for my dog if she were transported away. May not be cruel in any way, but I would much prefer to know where my dog was at any point in time. If I were to take a dog under breeders terms such as described I would be making sure I knew where my dog was going while fulfilling the obligation.

When my bitches whelp they do it here and remain here the entire time they are with the pups. I am a bit paranoid with moving my dogs before and after whelping, so No I wouldn't do it.

I would not be at all happy either if I was the OP - for several reasons - but as I said above - if there are no other litters involved in the contract (which there are not) then there is nothing that can be done about it now. Not something you would think about before signing a contract, you would naturally "assume" the breeder would keep the bitch with them.

It's things like this that makes "breeder terms" a rude word.

While it may be consider safe to transport bitches in whelp - I know of a couple of bitches who lost litters in the last week or 2 from travelling - not for whelping but on family holidays. My own girl went 6 days premature for no obvious reasons at the time - I would not be happy with my girls being taken anywhere that close to whelping.

I would also be worried if a contract stated X amount of live puppies and the bitch lost some at whelping or during transport - would that mean they would expect the bitch back for another litter?

[Starkehre]

OP, are you even positive the bitch actually went to WA to whelp?

Edited May 3, 2010 by dyzney

[Graeme]

OP, are you even positive the bitch actually went to WA to whelp?

I do not know if the bitch went to W.A ....

Edited May 4, 2010 by Graeme