Pregnant Bitch To Perth For Tail Docking

[Graeme]

Is it considered normal practice to transport a pregnant bitch due within the week to W.A to give birth due on a Friday and tail docking pre booked on the Monday.

I was told they were born on the Sunday, a caesar was performed as last pup was known to be dead, tail docking on the Monday then returned by car back to Vic say Thursday?

Edited April 28, 2010 by Graeme

[angelsun]

Uh oh....another tail dock debate!

[Bisart Dobes]

This was done by some people - however no longer as it is now illegal in every state in Australia to dock, band, remove a dogs tail unless it is deemed necessary by a vet due to injury or disease. The law changed March 16th 2010.

[Graeme]

This was done by some people - however no longer as it is now illegal in every state in Australia to dock, band, remove a dogs tail unless it is deemed necessary by a vet due to injury or disease. The law changed March 16th 2010.

Not so much the tail docking issue as it has been done prior to this date. Interested if its cruel to transport a dog that just given birth to 8 pups and had surgury 3-4 days travel back to vic in summer temperatures?

[jerojath]

This was done by some people - however no longer as it is now illegal in every state in Australia to dock, band, remove a dogs tail unless it is deemed necessary by a vet due to injury or disease. The law changed March 16th 2010.

Not so much the tail docking issue as it has been done prior to this date. Interested if its cruel to transport a dog that just given birth to 8 pups and had surgury 3-4 days travel back to vic in summer temperatures?

I, sure as hell, wouldn't do it!

[ellz]

This was done by some people - however no longer as it is now illegal in every state in Australia to dock, band, remove a dogs tail unless it is deemed necessary by a vet due to injury or disease. The law changed March 16th 2010.

Not so much the tail docking issue as it has been done prior to this date. Interested if its cruel to transport a dog that just given birth to 8 pups and had surgury 3-4 days travel back to vic in summer temperatures?

I guess it would depend upon the individual definition of cruel, but there is no way that I would put a bitch and puppies through it.

[Graeme]

I was not told that my dog went to Perth

The breeder did not know the name of the vet that performed the surgery

Edited April 28, 2010 by Graeme

[ellz]

I was not told that my dog went to Perth

The breeder did not know the name of the vet that performed the surgery

Sounds a bit suss to me, why didn't you know that your dog went to Perth?

And surely the breeder would know the name of the vet, presumably they had a bill to pay?

Or did the bitch and puppies go to another party for the procedures? If so, then I think there was only one vet in WA that was performing docking so it wouldn't be too hard for a person to find out which vet it was.

What's the problem anyway? Provided it was done before March 16th, the procedure is legal. If the bitch and puppies survived the travel and docking, then isn't it a bit late to be crying over spilt milk now?

[Dogsfevr]

I guess you could also ask this ,i gather your a registered member of your state body so you would have known tail docking was banned in your state so you would have known the dog would have to travel to Perth to get it done.

So you could have brought one with a tail or without ?

[Graeme]

I was not told that my dog went to Perth

The breeder did not know the name of the vet that performed the surgery

Sounds a bit suss to me, why didn't you know that your dog went to Perth?

And surely the breeder would know the name of the vet, presumably they had a bill to pay?

Or did the bitch and puppies go to another party for the procedures? If so, then I think there was only one vet in WA that was performing docking so it wouldn't be too hard for a person to find out which vet it was.

What's the problem anyway? Provided it was done before March 16th, the procedure is legal. If the bitch and puppies survived the travel and docking, then isn't it a bit late to be crying over spilt milk now?

I was never told the bitch went to Perth, The breeder told me the people that took her to perth were not back at that time and she would tell when they arrived back, now she will not say who it was.

The bitch went there to have pups turn around and come back to Vic

I can't find the person that does the tail docking.

Not crying over spilt milk, woundering if it cruel or normal practice.

Edited April 28, 2010 by Graeme

[ellz]

Is anybody else reading this thread totally confused?

To the OP...normally the "breeder" of a litter of puppies is the person in whose name the bitch is registered at the time of the whelping of the puppies. Yet you say that she is your bitch and the "breeder" hasn't paid you....how does that work?

No, it's NOT "normal" for a bitch to be taken to another location for whelping and tail docking of the litter....HOWEVER...until March 16th some breeders from the East were using a loophole in the WA law so as to enable them to have docked puppies. Not all breeders did this, it was an individual decision. Many, like myself, were content to abide by the law of our own state and leave our puppies undocked.

[Graeme]

I guess you could also ask this ,i gather your a registered member of your state body so you would have known tail docking was banned in your state so you would have known the dog would have to travel to Perth to get it done.

So you could have brought one with a tail or without ?

Sorry, I own the bitch under breeder terms it was to have a litter.

[ellz]

Sorry, I own the bitch under breeder terms it was to have a litter.

What does your agreement say? I assume you have something in writing?

Whenever I have allowed a bitch to be placed on breeder's terms there has been no exchange of money and the bitch and pups and any expenses arising from them are my responsibility.

And in addition to that, the placement of the litter are my responsibility, and to put it bluntly....my business and my business alone. Although I did share the details with the other owner of the bitch if requested to do so, although most didn't really care as long as they got their girl back.

I also only ever held them to one litter and after the bitch whelped, she was signed over to them in sole ownership.

I guess you need to clarify with the "breeder" what the terms and conditions of you having the bitch were. And if there weren't any, then you have learned a lesson and are wise in hindsight. And if there WERE terms and conditions which have been broken, then I guess you have to decide how far you wish to take the matter.

[Jed]

I am having some difficulty understanding what the problem is? Do you not want the bitch, do you not want the bitch on breeders terms? Did you want an undocked dog?

To answer your question, plenty of pregnant bitches travel, as do pregnant women. Planes and cars are both air conditioned. Dogs tend to sleep through car trips.

Pregnant bitches (and cattle, and horses) often travel from another country to Australia. I don't think vets in two countries, or the vets at AQIS would allow that if it was cruel.

As far as travelling the pups back from Perth, I don't see a problem with that either.

Many of us have had to travel pups for hours following caesarians, and I have never seen any pup have any adverse reaction. If care is taken during transport, there shouldn't be a problem, providing the bitch is happy and unstressed. If the pups did well, and she did well, she no doubt was happy and unstressed.

There are plenty of breeders of previously docked breeds who believe it is cruel for a previously docked breed to have a tail. Some feel so strongly about it, they walked away, and either do not breed, or breed a different, tailed breed.

Some previous breeders now do not breed, but they buy imported docked dogs to show. Or, if they have boxers, they buy a bobtail dog.

Others organised to have pups docked in Perth or NZ.

Some breeders did and do travel bitches, some do not. I am not sure what "normal" is, but it is not unusual.

When I bred docked dogs, no one ever asked me who docked them. Is this an issue?

If you are not happy, I suggest you take it up with the breeder?

Edit - Ok, rewind.

I thought you had a pup from the litter. Now I think perhaps it is the bitch that you have on breeders' terms?

I think you should take it up with the breeder, we really can't comment without knowing the circumstances. Also, if she returned to the breeder to whelp and raise the litter, it was in the breeder's hands, unless you had a written agreement which stated otherwise.

If the bitch was returned to you fit, well and happy, and that was the agreement, the breeder has fulfilled their part of the bargain.

Edited April 28, 2010 by Jed

[Gigit]

Is it considered normal practice to transport a pregnant bitch due within the week to W.A to give birth due on a Friday and tail docking pre booked on the Monday.

I was told they were born on the Sunday, a caesar was performed as last pup was known to be dead, tail docking on the Monday then returned by car back to Vic say Thursday?

I think the ANKC just the other day put out the new rules about dogs being sent to WA to whelp and be tail docked then returned. Check the ANKC site for details.

[Graeme]

I am having some difficulty understanding what the problem is? Do you not want the bitch, do you not want the bitch on breeders terms? Did you want an undocked dog?

To answer your question, plenty of pregnant bitches travel, as do pregnant women. Planes and cars are both air conditioned. Dogs tend to sleep through car trips.

Pregnant bitches (and cattle, and horses) often travel from another country to Australia. I don't think vets in two countries, or the vets at AQIS would allow that if it was cruel.

As far as travelling the pups back from Perth, I don't see a problem with that either.

Many of us have had to travel pups for hours following caesarians, and I have never seen any pup have any adverse reaction.

There are plenty of breeders of previously docked breeds who believe it is cruel for a previously docked breed to have a tail. Some feel so strongly about it, they walked away, and either do not breed, or breed a different, tailed breed.

Some previous breeders now do not breed, but they buy imported docked dogs to show. Or, if they have boxers, they buy a bobtail dog.

Others organised to have pups docked in Perth or NZ.

Some breeders did and do travel bitches, some do not. I am not sure what "normal" is, but it is not unusual.

When I bred docked dogs, no one ever asked me who docked them. Is this an issue?

If you are not happy, I suggest you take it up with the breeder?

I own the bitch once she had a litter, its not about docked tails, interested to know if its cruel to the dog to travel after a litter and caesar. The breeder did not tell me the dog went to Perth and at that time did not know the vet so makes me wonder why. I was told a pregnant bitch can't fly, I understand your comments regarding car travel thank you for you comments. Breeder is not complying to terms of contract.

[Graeme]

Is it considered normal practice to transport a pregnant bitch due within the week to W.A to give birth due on a Friday and tail docking pre booked on the Monday.

I was told they were born on the Sunday, a caesar was performed as last pup was known to be dead, tail docking on the Monday then returned by car back to Vic say Thursday?

I think the ANKC just the other day put out the new rules about dogs being sent to WA to whelp and be tail docked then returned. Check the ANKC site for details.

Thank you

[Jed]

Sorry, Graeme, I edited (because I found I had read your original post incorrectly) - I notice your reply contains my unedited post - just alerting you, no need to respond again. My apologies

And as a breeder, I don't think it's cruel - pups are moved for a whole lot of reasons, and seem to be ok.

I have never travelled mine from Perth or NZ following docking or banding, but I wouldn't see it as causing great distress. Certainly not to the pups, and if the mother's emotional needs were met on the trip, she should be fine.

I have, however, had friends send pregnant bitches to me to whelp and raise the pups, and the girls (and pups) have been fine. I have also travelled pups very long distances for one reason or another (not to do with docking) over the years and have never observed any distress, or lack of weight gain etc.

Gigit, I think the pups were docked prior to the new laws in WA.

Edited April 28, 2010 by Jed

[ellz]

I am having some difficulty understanding what the problem is? Do you not want the bitch, do you not want the bitch on breeders terms? Did you want an undocked dog?

To answer your question, plenty of pregnant bitches travel, as do pregnant women. Planes and cars are both air conditioned. Dogs tend to sleep through car trips.

Pregnant bitches (and cattle, and horses) often travel from another country to Australia. I don't think vets in two countries, or the vets at AQIS would allow that if it was cruel.

As far as travelling the pups back from Perth, I don't see a problem with that either.

Many of us have had to travel pups for hours following caesarians, and I have never seen any pup have any adverse reaction.

There are plenty of breeders of previously docked breeds who believe it is cruel for a previously docked breed to have a tail. Some feel so strongly about it, they walked away, and either do not breed, or breed a different, tailed breed.

Some previous breeders now do not breed, but they buy imported docked dogs to show. Or, if they have boxers, they buy a bobtail dog.

Others organised to have pups docked in Perth or NZ.

Some breeders did and do travel bitches, some do not. I am not sure what "normal" is, but it is not unusual.

When I bred docked dogs, no one ever asked me who docked them. Is this an issue?

If you are not happy, I suggest you take it up with the breeder?

I own the bitch once she had a litter, its not about docked tails, interested to know if its cruel to the dog to travel after a litter and caesar. The breeder did not tell me the dog went to Perth and at that time did not know the vet so makes me wonder why. I was told a pregnant bitch can't fly, I understand your comments regarding car travel thank you for you comments. Breeder is not complying to terms of contract.

And I ask again......did you have a written agreement?

[Graeme]

I am having some difficulty understanding what the problem is? Do you not want the bitch, do you not want the bitch on breeders terms? Did you want an undocked dog?

To answer your question, plenty of pregnant bitches travel, as do pregnant women. Planes and cars are both air conditioned. Dogs tend to sleep through car trips.

Pregnant bitches (and cattle, and horses) often travel from another country to Australia. I don't think vets in two countries, or the vets at AQIS would allow that if it was cruel.

As far as travelling the pups back from Perth, I don't see a problem with that either.

Many of us have had to travel pups for hours following caesarians, and I have never seen any pup have any adverse reaction.

There are plenty of breeders of previously docked breeds who believe it is cruel for a previously docked breed to have a tail. Some feel so strongly about it, they walked away, and either do not breed, or breed a different, tailed breed.

Some previous breeders now do not breed, but they buy imported docked dogs to show. Or, if they have boxers, they buy a bobtail dog.

Others organised to have pups docked in Perth or NZ.

Some breeders did and do travel bitches, some do not. I am not sure what "normal" is, but it is not unusual.

When I bred docked dogs, no one ever asked me who docked them. Is this an issue?

If you are not happy, I suggest you take it up with the breeder?

I own the bitch once she had a litter, its not about docked tails, interested to know if its cruel to the dog to travel after a litter and caesar. The breeder did not tell me the dog went to Perth and at that time did not know the vet so makes me wonder why. I was told a pregnant bitch can't fly, I understand your comments regarding car travel thank you for you comments. Breeder is not complying to terms of contract.

And I ask again......did you have a written agreement?

Sorry I forgot to answer. Yes I do.