Your Opinions...

[corvus]

Your two sentences contradict. From a paragraph full of internal contradictions.

Yeah, I realise that, but it's hard not to contradict yourself when talking about something as massively broad as domestic dogs in some sort of generalised terms. I do think that Semyonova realises that as well and has deliberately ignored the grey areas because it is not important to the argument of whether dogs should be treated like wolves or not. What I've been trying to do is acknowledge the broad, general trends and simultaneously agree that there are grey areas.

Do we really still have a "wild" type which is separate from a "domestic" type?

Well, I think so, in the sense that some dogs that look like domestic dogs don't act like it, and normally that's because they have a bit or a lot of dingo or some other wild dog in them. There are wild dogs that survive quite comfortably without direct human help and then there are domestic dogs, some of which might survive well enough and some of which would certainly not survive. I mean it in an arbitrary way. Dingoes don't act like domestic dogs, even when brought up in a domestic setting. Dingoes aren't the only ones. These pariah dogs still exist in various forms and are all over the world. Again, Canaan Dogs are a good breed to look into. There still is a wild type and a more domestic type identified in discussions with CD enthusiasts, although even the domestic type does not behave like a normal domestic dog. More fearful, more subtle body language and less tolerance/acceptance towards novelty.

The "grey" area between domestic and wild is important. That is my point. There is no arbitary human defined line of separation.

Oh yes, I agree, but is it important in the argument of where dogs came from? If you want to distil it down to "wolves" or "pariah dogs", the grey areas aren't that important IMO. There would be grey areas between wolves and pariah dogs as well. There's grey areas everywhere. You just have to decide which ones to ignore. The author decided to ignore all of them. I think that's fair in the scheme of things, although it would be wrong if the author was trying to explain in detail how the domestication process occurred. But the author is just trying to explain why it's erroneous to treat dogs as wolves.

Saying that there are some hunting dogs that would have bred with pariah dogs is almost certainly true, but less important than who most hunting dogs breed with. I agree with the author that most hunting dogs would breed with other hunting dogs rather than pariah dogs just by virtue of the fact they'd be more likely to run into a hunting dog than a pariah dog. This grey area where that is not the case is basically just the edge of the civilisation. It's not the whole hunting dog population.

[corvus]

I thought ligons were sterile? I do agree that the species concept is beginning to show signs of wear and tear in this day and age but essentially humans are only applying selection pressures to certain traits and so really they aren't that far from the wolf, particularly when you consider that some of the traits that we are applying that selection pressure to are also wolf traits.

No, I don't think wolves are that far from dogs, but you have to be careful when assessing selection pressures. Behaviour winds its way through everything. You can't IMO assume that by applying selection pressure to a few select behaviours you aren't messing with a whole lot of other stuff you're not even aware exists.

There has obviously been some divergence of the two since domestication first began but there is nothing to convince me that they are not essentially the same species or that there were any other species infuencing them, many species of domesticated animals are vastly different from their ancestral species it doesn't mean there were other species involved in their development.

I don't think species entered into the argument? It sounds like Seyonova doesn't think dogs and wolves are the same species, but she doesn't say it as far as I have noticed. I got the sense we were talking about the difference between wolves as in the critters that live and hunt in groups versus pariah dogs, as in the critters that were wolves that started hanging around people and soon didn't look or act much like wolves anymore. ;)

I *think* there is a DNA study comparing wolf DNA with certain breeds

I put a link to that article if it is the one you're thinking of earlier in the thread.

[Aidan]

but my point is there seems to be a clear system of hierachy when the dogs are left out and expected to defend for themselves.

Does that necessarily suggest a strict linear system though?

Define 'strict'.

"Strict" is probably redundant but I put it in there for emphasis. Linear implies that the hierarchy is fixed, does not change. So if you were to make longitudinal observations over the life-cycle of all pack members would they always be in their relative position? At all times? Would this be universally consistent amongst all groups of CAOs? Amongst other breeds?

It certainly isn't true of non-captive wolves, but I wouldn't expect those observations to hold true for domestic dogs in a variety of pet, working or breeding situations.

Why do dogs fight and why do some dogs always win?

Because they are better fighters?

[WoofnHoof]

I don't think species entered into the argument? It sounds like Seyonova doesn't think dogs and wolves are the same species, but she doesn't say it as far as I have noticed. I got the sense we were talking about the difference between wolves as in the critters that live and hunt in groups versus pariah dogs, as in the critters that were wolves that started hanging around people and soon didn't look or act much like wolves anymore.

No I was more responding to others who had suggested there were other species involved.

I *think* there is a DNA study comparing wolf DNA with certain breeds

I put a link to that article if it is the one you're thinking of earlier in the thread.

Thanks I must have missed it (at least at a concious level, obviously my subconcious remembered! )

[Fife Dog]

On ‎25‎/‎04‎/‎2010 at 10:53 PM, corvus said:

To play devil's advocate...

But that's the point! Where resources allow it they congregate, but otherwise they are not pack animals.

Dingoes are not domesticated, though. I think the argument is that the ones that stopped mating with the hunters became domestic dogs. The ones that kept hunting remained as wild dogs of whatever type. They are all over the place.

It's a good point. The friendly foxes came about in a matter of a few generations. But I guess it's not parsimonious. It's simpler that dogs made even smaller evolutionary steps from pariah dogs than from wolves.

Also a good point. Looks can be deceiving, but it's true that dogs have a huge variety of roles. Some are now useless hunters (Erik, I'm looking at you and that mouse you watched run under your nose to the fridge tonight!) whereas others are quite accomplished at a variety of game. I think Canaan Dogs are a good model. They hang around, semi-domesticated, and if you wanted a dog to herd you'd pick one that would be good at it. If you wanted one to hunt, you'd pick one that would be good at it. If you wanted one as a guard dog, you picked one that looked to be good at it. They are still kind of semi-domesticated in some parts. There's a Canaan for any job. And if you get a good one for one particular job, you breed from it and keep the puppies and pretty soon you have a line and even a new breed. Basically, if you want something in a dog, you breed it from what you have at hand. Some of our breeds now have been around a lot longer than breed standards. Lapphunds, for example, have been herding reindeer supposedly for thousands of years, but they only got a standard some 30 years ago.

If only we could get Canaan dogs here in Australia!!

[Boronia]

5 hours ago, Fife Dog said:

If only we could get Canaan dogs here in Australia!!

The chap (Duncan) up the road from us has two Canaan's, he bought them from rescue in Dubai (I think it was Dubai) Both has to be desexed before coming to Australia. Cost him a fortune to bring over.

They are very pretty dogs but seem to be fear/dog aggressive and gave me the heebeejeebies to tell the truth. They would really 'go off' if they were on-lead, with their owner and saw us with the Westies on the next road over.

They appeared to be untrustworthy.

Duncan's dogs looked much like this one

 

 

I have looked at Google Images and not many of the Canaan's are happy-relaxed-seeming dogs, most look extra-alert, it seems to be a breed characteristic

 

[Loving my Oldies]

How on earth did this thread get resurrected after 7 years?  LOL.  

 

I have always had “toy” breeds and I certainly don’t look at them lying around and think my house is full of wolves.  HOWEVER ......(LOL), my first dogs were two little Maltese and nothing made me more amazed (and amused) to see my 2 kilogram female Maltese tip her head back, snout to the heavens and howl when I listened to Opera.   

[Papillon Kisses]

11 minutes ago, Dame Danny's Darling said:

How on earth did this thread get resurrected after 7 years?  LOL.  

 

I have always had “toy” breeds and I certainly don’t look at them lying around and think my house is full of wolves.  HOWEVER ......(LOL), my first dogs were two little Maltese and nothing made me more amazed (and amused) to see my 2 kilogram female Maltese tip her head back, snout to the heavens and howl when I listened to Opera.   

Pretty sure someone searched for Canaan dogs.

 

Your story is precious!   

 

I know a poodle x who howls whenever he listens to Blondie.

[Scottsmum]

8 hours ago, Papillon Kisses said:

Pretty sure someone searched for Canaan dogs.

 

Your story is precious!   

 

I know a poodle x who howls whenever he listens to Blondie.

I think since the upgrade bumping older threads is possible. It was sometimes possible before the upgrade on a mobile. 

 

I had a papered blue bitch about 23 years ago who would yodel like a dingo

[Boronia]

I love the ABC Dingo

2.15 minutes in

 

[Loving my Oldies]

I love that one too, Boronia.