Feeling Down About My Dog

[Lucy's mama]

I am getting really down about my dog. He is listening to me less and less despite having a trainer out and following her instructions, including NILIF and TOT. Dealing with him is just becoming depressing. At least before I could enjoy his cuddles and patting him and his kisses, and truly believed if I treated him well, kept his belly full, his mind busy, his body exercised, gave him lotts of pats and love and continued training and enjoying him he would become a great dog. Now I feel like we are enemys in a power struggle.

He learnt so well at puppy school, he enjoys his crate time, he toilet trained fine, chew toy trained well, doesn't dig and he used to want to do anything I asked of him. Now in the last two days every time I have told him to sit he has looked at me and walked away! Unless I have food, in which case he sits without being asked.

I called out the trainer because he was air snapping near the kids and deciding for himself if he was going to obey me. She was wonderfull and I have followed her instructions fully. I’m just finding it so un-rewarding. I chose a breed who is ‘eager to please’ and active for a reason - so I could enjoy him, take him out, train him in agility and have an on-the-go, take anywhere companion, not to have to constantly be on top of him. Not so I could ignore him to increase the value of my attention, limit patting, no cuddling, etc etc.

I’m just so disappointed I want to cry.

Please, please tell me things will get better and I can go back to enjoying my big boofa.

[auto]

Lucys muma All dogs Puppies) go though a stage when, they will try the boundries, You just have to make shore it realizes that you are the Alpha of the pack.

i hope this helps in some way. i am shore it will get better.

Edited April 22, 2010 by auto

[kelpiekaye]

I am getting really down about my dog. He is listening to me less and less despite having a trainer out and following her instructions, including NILIF and TOT. Dealing with him is just becoming depressing. At least before I could enjoy his cuddles and patting him and his kisses, and truly believed if I treated him well, kept his belly full, his mind busy, his body exercised, gave him lotts of pats and love and continued training and enjoying him he would become a great dog. Now I feel like we are enemys in a power struggle.

He learnt so well at puppy school, he enjoys his crate time, he toilet trained fine, chew toy trained well, doesn't dig and he used to want to do anything I asked of him. Now in the last two days every time I have told him to sit he has looked at me and walked away! Unless I have food, in which case he sits without being asked.

I called out the trainer because he was air snapping near the kids and deciding for himself if he was going to obey me. She was wonderfull and I have followed her instructions fully. I’m just finding it so un-rewarding. I chose a breed who is ‘eager to please’ and active for a reason - so I could enjoy him, take him out, train him in agility and have an on-the-go, take anywhere companion, not to have to constantly be on top of him. Not so I could ignore him to increase the value of my attention, limit patting, no cuddling, etc etc.

I’m just so disappointed I want to cry.

Please, please tell me things will get better and I can go back to enjoying my big boofa.

It will get better, young dogs go through stages. Stick to your trainers instructions and you will be rewarded I'm sure.

[dancinbcs]

You have a rebelious "teenager" on your hands and at the moment he needs tough love and some boundaries being defined. It is just a stage he is going through and unlike human teenagers it will only last a few months, not several years, if you handle it right. This is good training for you for when your children reach their teens.

If you are really unhappy with what is happening, have another talk to the trainer and see if you can modify anything she has advised. You have a smart breed that can still love you and take advantage of you at the same time, if you let them. Once he gets used to the fact that life is not a free ride and he has to earn attention he will become more settled and show more affection again. At the moment he will be confused by the new power shift and trying to work out where he fits in.

[poodlefan]

So your dog is a teenager? This is absolutely normal and something that needs to be worked through with the establishment and maintenance of consistent boundaries.

If you don't attend regular obedience training, I'd strongly recommend it. It establishes a pattern of leadership that can be helpful through the terrible teens.

[Dame Aussie]

Our boy can be a bit like this sometimes, HE decides when HE wants to do things

We're working through it with training and he's a gorgeous boy most of the time but I know the feeling. Just stick with it

He is also a teeanger and quite an independant breed

[huski]

LM, Jane will tell you that Daisy as a teenager (and puppy) was very similar. She was not affectionate at all. She had very little interest in spending time with us and was very independent and stubborn. She was always pushing the boundaries and would growl and snap at me for various things from five months of age.

Actually the first time I took her to obedience club I left in tears because each time I tried to move her into position she would growl and snap at me. She was only a puppy at the time.

Now we have a great relationship with none of those problems and she even sleeps curled up next to me on the bed quite often and will lie on me and have cuddles. She's not obsessed with having pats or cuddles but it's a massive improvement on the puppy who wouldn't even let me pick her up.

It takes time and consistency - we have a relationship built on respect and Daisy wants to listen to me (most of the time anyway LOL! ). We'll be competing for our first obedience title this year. It is not something that happened over night. It definitely improved with the right training and as Daisy matured (she's three years old now).

[Aidan]

The reason he will only do what you ask when you have food in your hand is very simple, that is how he has been trained to respond. It works like this:

Antecedent > Behaviour > Consequence

Antecedent is anything in the environment that elicits a response, they become paired with the behaviour through repeated association. Behaviour is the thing you want him to do (or the thing that he actually does, so pay attention to that). The consequence is where the food is supposed to be, at the end, not the beginning.

There are many reasons for using a clicker. One of which is to "bridge" the gap between Behaviour and Consequence. A reinforcer should be delivered immediately, but unless you have the food in your hand near the dog's mouth this is impossible so we employ a "bridge", commonly a clicker. This means we can mark the response (e.g dog sits) and then feed shortly after that.

Using a clicker, we can have the food in a bowl on a nearby table, instead of in our hand or in a bumbag.

If you've been teaching him with a food lure, you're going to have to "fade" the lure. Gradually pare it back until the Antecedent is no longer food in your hand, no longer a big hand signal, but a verbal cue or a hand signal if that's what you wish to use.

If you see it for what it really is and stop thinking he's trying to overthrow you things will will be fun again and he will learn to respond to Antecedents other than food in your hand.

[Dogawne]

s this dogs behaviour that is getting you down simply a precursor for something bigger in your life, eg the " last straw" scenariou, because just simple bad dog/teen dog rebellion behaviour it seems unusal that it would get you that down as to make you that upset IYKWIM

[huski]

I meant to add, you only got the trainer out last weekend right? (if my memory serves me correctly). This sort of stuff takes time, and a big improvement in his behaviour is not something that will happen over night especially as he's going through his adolescent period.

[tivins]

Dont give up LM..Persistence is the key to success..!

[laeral]

As others have said dont give up. The teenage months can be hard to cope with.

My GSD went though a bad patch then too. Wouldn't listen was fiercely independent and a general pain in the butt. She has never been super affectionate either so at times I felt like you that we just weren't getting along.

But with persistence and training we got though that stage and now have a wonderful relationship.

[sas]

Sorry to hear you're having a hard time but it is fairly normal.

Lot's of people find when they start to put their dogs in their place by way of NILIF and things like that, that the dog may rebel....it's at this point that you have to hold it together and stand firm and put your foot down. For instance if you told the dog to go to their bed and they didn't, well you go and put the dog on its bed and if it gets up, you go back and put it there again until you release the dog from that command.

100% consistency will really help you through this.

Also, you really have to be calm about this, as soon as your dog realises it has frustrated you it knows how to push your buttons.....just like a real life teenager.

In regards to the food and training, just like Aidan said...you gotta fade the lure over time if that's how you taught the dog...

I'm in the frame of mind now that I love it when my dog challenges me because it gives me the opportunity to show the dog who I am and what I want....I love his challenges and he does them daily...it's just his temperament....in the early days though I found it very soul distroying.

Edited April 23, 2010 by sas

[corrie]

I meant to add, you only got the trainer out last weekend right? (if my memory serves me correctly). This sort of stuff takes time, and a big improvement in his behaviour is not something that will happen over night especially as he's going through his adolescent period.

An extinction burst could possibly explain worsening behaviour. Previously successful behaviours are now not resulting in a pay off so your dog has possibly upped the ante.

An example is a child that is used to getting what he/she wants from nagging. The parent consistenly relents. The parent realises this has become a negative pattern of behavior with the child so decides not to relent in future. Initially when the child isnt getting what they want the nagging turns in to full blown tantrums. This makes it very tempting for the parent to give in (especially if in a crowded supermarket ) but if the parent gives in at that stage the only lesson the child has learned is that when all else fails having a tantrum results in them getting what they want..... But if you ride out the esculation in negative behaviour and remain consistent and not give in the child learns that having a tantrum results in no pay off so the tantrums and nagging receed (theoretically ).

Sorry probably not a very good example.

Edited April 23, 2010 by corrie

[Monah]

I know what you mean, I did TOT and NILIF etc. too and it worked really well, but you do feel the 'lack of cuddles', but I think this is more a human need and we feel 'bad' etc. stick with it, I use these tools daily, but can also be 'cuddly' now that mine know the 'rules'. We have balance. eventually I hope you will too. It does take time. Don't give up. I used many other ways with mine to have 'fun times together' that also helped greatly with control too and staisfied both dog and I with our needs. Flyball was a great saviour as my dog LOVES it and loves doing it with me!! same with agility, we also do some obedience, but both of us find it boring (could be our club I think!!) so it was not as rewarding re relationship.

Find something fun to do together, that also show the dog they need to behave to get the reward. Flyball and agility usually use clickers, and also, wear their brain and body out, which is a great thing for a dog with other things on it's mind

[Kavik]

Kaos went through a ratbag stage at around 9 months. If you work through it with some guidance they come good He is now an AWESOME dog and we are getting some great results in agility

[CaseyKay]

I too have a teenage puppy who occasionally drives me crazy and we have a bit of power struggle but she is always super, super cuddly girl which helps. Whereas, the oldest of my 3 border collies girls, she was a demon teenager, was a huge struggle and I never seemed to get anything from her. She grew into the most amazingly obedient, well behaved dog. I can take her anywhere and no one believes she was such a horror and even worse a disappointment to me. Hang in there, you just need to ride it out, I know how hard it is because baby puppies are such adoring cuddly creatures and then you get lumped with this giant lunatic semi-formed dog for a few months

[Bubitty]

Lucy's Mama this thread may make you feel better:

http://www.dolforums.com.au/index.php?show...=185840&hl=

[Lucy's mama]

Corrie - yep, I understand the analogy. (I have two kids)

Huski - He is affectionate - but as part of NILIF I have to stop lots of the cuddles and sitting on me and licks etc.

Dogawne - No, it's not a precursor to something else. I am home 5 out of 7 days, and he wass coming to work with me too, so I spend a lot of time around him. I robably have too much time to focus on his bad behaviour. It also affects my day and mood when I have to constantly be onto him and my son to ensure the new rules are followed.

I am happy with the trainers advice, just finding it difficult.

It's good to hear confirmation that it is just a stage and that many other dogs have done the same and come good.

We did faze out food and he still sat, but now he's not. I tried clicker training and I am bad at it!! Maybe I could practice my timing and coordination on the kiids for awhile then give it another go.

I will contact thee trainer re obedience lessons, as I had planned to start on the next intake, but I'm supposed to be working him under minimal distraction atm, so not sure that I shoud take him to a class with lots of dogs to distract him.

Thanks to everyone for all the feedback and encouragement.

Edited April 23, 2010 by Lucy's mama

[huski]

LM - try not to think of NILIF as withholding your affection or attention. You can give him lots of attention/pats/affeciton *if* he earns it.

It's tough when you first start off with a strict training program but you will reap the benefits in time

Edited April 23, 2010 by huski