Questions About Pregnancy And Whelping.

[RoseRed]

Can people explain to me about calcium sandoz?

I understand it is something given to the bitch either during whelping or just after to replace lost calcium. How necessary is it?

When I originally spoke to my vet during pregnancy they said NOT to give any supplements especially calcium as it can end up causing milk fever.

So does that mean it's just something you should not give her DURING pregancy, but at the time of whelping (or just after) is it ok? Or should I avoid it altogether?

[t-time]

Do NOT give pregnant bitches Calcium Sandoz!

Once the first puppy is delivered - GO FOR IT!

Essentially you are changing the levels of calcium which with babies growing inside, laying down bone etc - you don't want to muck around with it. NOT DURING PREGNANCY!

Once puppies are being born and feeding the calcium is being taken away from the bitch and a calcium supplement really helps.

I found this out the hard way with my bitch developing eclampsia 11 days after whelping.

That's layman's terms for you.

[SBT101]

My vet told me the complete opposite. And I also have breeder friends who have told me the same thing. I give folate tablets right through their pregnancy, and for calcium during pregnancy, always give them plenty of meaty bones, minced chicken carcusses. My friends also advised me to give sandoz after every whelping do bring calcium levels up. My girl ended up having a c-section so didn't need to. I did give it to her afterwoods though and always have it on hand just in case she needed it. I know lack of calcium is quite bad and can lead to the dam getting aggressive, and in worst cases even killing and eating puppies.

[Sandra777]

Excess calcium during pregnancy can cause primary or secondary ueterine inertia, so definitely not a good idea. But the diet needs to be rich in calcium and the associated minerals, either by using puppy food or by raw feeding natural calcium and other minerals in the form of bones.

Once the bitch is well established in labour, calcium can help keep the contractions going, and after whelping calcium levels can drop dramatically which causes eclampsia which can be fatal and can cause the bitch to attack her pups.

So..... if she's on a good diet no extra calcium during pregnancy, but as soon as that whelping starts properly then it's fine. It's virtually impossible to overdose a bitch on calcium so don't be shy with it for the first few days, then you can taper off for 4-5 days (depending on the bitch and the size of the litter) then pump it back in to her when the pups really start taking a lot out of her (10 days +, again depends on the bitch and the size of the litter). All mine get raw food all the way through, but I'm quite happy to give them a three times the recommended dose of Calcium Sandoz for the first three or four weeks if they have a large litter.

Edited April 22, 2010 by Sandra777

[RoseRed]

Excellent. Thanks everybody, that cleared it up for me.

I'll probably just keep coming back to this thread whenever I have a random question ... should've called it Pregnancy for Dummies or something lol

[t-time]

My vet told me the complete opposite.

I was told to give calcium to my pregnant bitch by a number of breeder friends and a vet. I'd never done it with previous litters but figured I was being given "better" advice so I should take it.

With the Friday night emergency rush to the vet with seizures and full-blown eclampsia, the first thing the vet said was "Who told you to give the bitch calcium during pregnancy? They are WRONG! NEVER give Calcium to a pregnant bitch". My girl survived but I then had to wean the babiesand dry her up which was horrible as she was a great mother with a ton of milk.

Essentially, my bitch was already being fed a lot of natural calcium during her pregnancy - natural calcium is PERFECT - add extra which I did and I was asking for trouble. ;)

[RoseRed]

That's terrible t-time.

And yes, it seems that during pregnancy is a big no-no.

But after whelping can be helpful (from what I gather)

[Dogsfevr]

We never give any extra calcium,a good diet is all that is needed.

We also never use sandoz ,that was the it product like 20 yrs ago

[Gretel]

I use calcium after whelping (and it can be helpful during as well). I really feel that calcium is called for in Cavaliers when there are several pups as the combined weight of the pups soon adds up and puts a real strain on the mum.

[ellz]

Naturally sourced calcium from good quality calcium-rich foods is much better assimilated by the body during pregnancy. But given that any diet should be calcium-rich anyway (bones etc) this should be no different when NOT pregnant.

Calcium can be given between puppies to help with labour, but I only do this if things slow down somewhat.

My girls are routinely given a shot of calcium AFTER whelping to help in a couple of ways. Firstly, it can help to stimulate the uterus so that any products of conception are expelled easily and more gently than they are if a shot of oxytocin is given. Secondly, it can give the milk a boost so that it lets down more strongly. Lastly, many bitches have a dramatic drop in calcium during/immediately after whelping which can cause eclampsia and/or unexplained aggression towards their puppies....a shot of calcium often fixes this before it becomes a dangerous issue.

[RoseRed]

Thanks again for the advice

[Hazz]

We only give calcium during whelping

[peaceful]

Several vets have explained to me that if you give calcium supplements to a bitch during pregnancy her body doesn't need to make it for itself, then during whelping and after when the calcium demands on the bitches body are huge her body has forgotten how to produce the needed calcium as required and so takes it from the blood stream and the calcium supply in the blood stream is depleted and that is what causes eclampsia.

Natural sources of calcium in food is fine and necessary during pregnancy and after.

Calcium given during whelping is also fine.

Many of the "old time" or "old school" breeders still advocate giving calcium supplements during pregnancy as that was the thinking back then but that has now been proven to be

bad advice.

Edited April 28, 2010 by peaceful

[RoseRed]

Ok so yesterday was day 60, took my girl's temp, and it was 37.1 .... so I thought "here we go". But a couple of hours later, it was back up to 37.8.

Today, day 61, similar story, took temp and it was 37, so I thought "ooh that's even better, here we go" but a couple of hours later, back to 37.6.

Does that all seem to be normal?

[Aziah]

Yes, often the temp drop goes unnoticed because it can last fora very short period of time...

How may times are you taking temp?

[ellz]

The temp drop you're looking for won't be a gradual downwards creep. It will be a dramatic drop to (usually) below 37 degrees that you may, or may not be lucky enough to catch.

With the current temps, it could be that her normal baseline range of temps is mid to high 37's. So before I'd consider labour to be 12 - 24 hours away I'd be wanting to see around 36.7 - 36.9 degrees or sometimes even lower.

You should also take the temp at the minimum first thing in the morning, before exercise and last thing at night, after rest.

[RoseRed]

I've been taking temp twice a day (but 3 times yesterday, and will do 3 times today)

[ellz]

Just found the start of the temps I took for my Stafford litter which was born in November 2009. The vet says these were well timed and trusting my gut was a very good thing.

The dam was HUGE and had 9 puppies by c-section on Day 59.

19/11 - Day 56

9.00am - 37.5

20/11 - Day 57

5.30am - 37.7

21/11 - Day 58

Noon - 36.7

7pm - 37.7

By midnight, she was obviously in labour (panting, scratching) but not "seriously".

By 5am next morning I was getting concerned so rang the vet. Was there by 8am. C-section at 9. By the time we got in, placentas had started to separate and if I'd left it for another day I would have lost the entire litter and possibly my girl as well.

[RoseRed]

Just found the start of the temps I took for my Stafford litter which was born in November 2009. The vet says these were well timed and trusting my gut was a very good thing.

The dam was HUGE and had 9 puppies by c-section on Day 59.

19/11 - Day 56

9.00am - 37.5

20/11 - Day 57

5.30am - 37.7

21/11 - Day 58

Noon - 36.7

7pm - 37.7

By midnight, she was obviously in labour (panting, scratching) but not "seriously".

By 5am next morning I was getting concerned so rang the vet. Was there by 8am. C-section at 9. By the time we got in, placentas had started to separate and if I'd left it for another day I would have lost the entire litter and possibly my girl as well.

Seriously? Now you've got me worried.

And that was only at day 58 - 59 which is like 4 or 5 days early. So how do I know if anything is wrong? I mean if my girl didn't go into labour by say day 65 then yes, I'd think it was time for the vet. But day 58 or 59 I'd just assume it wasn't time yet.

What else can I tell you ... ummm .... she doesn't seem overly interested in food today. But she's still quite active. Doesn't seem to be panting or nesting. But last night she seemed restless, she kept getting me up to let her out for the toilet, but then half the time she didn't actually do anything, she just seemed to want to go out on the stairs (maybe to get cool or something).

I felt her belly earlier and one of the puppies was very active. And then she was laying across my lap about half and hour ago and I could feel movement on my legs where her belly was

[ellz]

Firstly, don't worry. Normal gestation is 59 - 63 days so your girl could whelp safely any time from now and not have a problem. My girl's litter was very large and that is why there was sufficient hormone to send her into labour early. BUT, having said that, quite often bitches carrying very large OR very small litters simply don't go into labour and/or progress as they should.

Secondly, I don't think you've seen the true temp drop. I think you've seen a normal range baseline temperature. As you can see by what I posted, my girl's baseline temps were also in the 37.5 - 37.7 range and it wasn't until I saw the drop to 36.7 that I went on "alert".

You will know if your girl is having difficulties. In my case, it was more gut feeling and prior knowledge that helped me and also the fact that I live some distance from a reliable veterinary service so was always going to err on the side of caution anyway, even if it meant having an elective c-section done. In the end, it wasn't an emergency c-section, just a well-timed one but the whelping probably would have ended up as an emergency if I'd not acted when I did.

Lastly.....this is what my girl looked like at 56 days. I've never had such a large litter in 24 years of breeding and I just had a feeling she would go early and I was right.

By all accounts, your girl is progressing normally. Keep taking temps and watch for the drop. Watch her body language. You will know true nesting when it starts, it is very very easily recognised. As with humans, the contractions come in waves of pain so they will scratch and nest when the contractions are at their worst - it is a pain reaction. Between contractions they will usually pant and shiver. The wanting to go outside a lot is a natural thing, pressure on the bladder etc. BUT do make sure that from about now, you start taking her outside on a lead to go potty or she could dart off into a nice dark spot and you will have trouble getting her out. Carry a towel with you and a torch is a good idea too.