My First Scary Dog Park Experience - And It Was My Own Dumb Fault :(

[Zhou Xuanyao]

Thanks for letting me get that out! Any opinions are welcome, but please, I'm not looking for a lecture on how bad dog parks are

*zips mouth*

Well, atleast you are unique in that you actually admit it was your own dumb fault so big ups for that.

Glad your little mate was ok and the other dog was only snapping as opposed to biting and holding.

I'd stay away from any prey driven breed given that you have a squeaky, small fluffy dog

Thats right I could not have put it better.

They are little squeak toys to big dog. The pattern is, they play, everything is fine at first. Big dog turns it up a little bit, the small dog cannot handle it and becomes submissive. Big dog bites, it squeaks, oh wow that was funny. Lets do it again. It squeaks some more, becomes even more submissive, tries to get away, big dog sees small dog as prey and then its too late. Starts at play, progresses to prey.

[Gilypoo]

Thats right I could not have put it better.

They are little squeak toys to big dog. The pattern is, they play, everything is fine at first. Big dog turns it up a little bit, the small dog cannot handle it and becomes submissive. Big dog bites, it squeaks, oh wow that was funny. Lets do it again. It squeaks some more, becomes even more submissive, tries to get away, big dog sees small dog as prey and then its too late. Starts at play, progresses to prey

Disagree completely... Not always big dogs that turn it up.... Small dogs dont know when to stop sometimes and big dogs react the way they know how.

[Zhou Xuanyao]

Hmm.

Ok. Well thats not something you can really "disagree" with

Thats like me saying I disagree with pythagoras theorem.

What I said is just what happens.

Ofcourse "not always". Sometimes. Like this time. I think it is probable that the only reason it was not a trip to the vet (or worse) was because the other dog was only a pup.

Small dogs dont know when to stop sometimes and big dogs react the way they know how

That happens too. But that is not a scenario that reflects the OP's situation.

[Simply Grand]

Interesting recent posts. I'm not close minded on either dog parks or small/big dog behaviour, discussion is great.

Lo Pan - it was my own dumb fault because I didn't step in when my instincts were telling me to, not because I was at the dog park. You gave a scenario where big and small dog play, big dog gets full on, small dog can't handle it etc. The point where I usually step in is where big dog (or any dog) gets full on. Having said that, at my dog park there have been negligable numbers of times I've had to do that.

To you and also Clyde, who said we should stay away from prey driven breeds, do you think GSDs and other prey-driven dogs should have no contact with small fluffies?

Edited to make more sense now I'm not on iphone and can see what I'm doing.

Edited April 24, 2010 by Saxonpup

[Simply Grand]

I think it is probable that the only reason it was not a trip to the vet (or worse) was because the other dog was only a pup.

This particular situation wouldn't have happened at all if the other dog hadn't been only a pup. Even though I acted stupidly in this situation, I know I would never let my dog play with an adult GSD (or other large dog) who was boisterous and rough, and whose owner allowed that with a small unknown dog. Had the dog been an adult showing the excitement level of a puppy and trying to make contact with Saxon I would have been straight out of there.

[twodoggies2001]

Im glad everything turned ok ok for you saxonpup.... It must of been very scary

yes that sounds a scary experience...I have a medium sized dog, but i still worry when he plays with the bigger GSD's and mastifs etc

.

What worrys you about GSD's???? Have you had a previous bad experience with one? Im not beening nasty. Its just one thing that really gets my goat up.. I have a 13 month GSD (small size wise by breed standards) and I really get frustrated with people assuming she is nasty just because she is a GSD.... Just wanting to understand what makes people sacred..

I also have a 13 month Great Dane and get frustrated when people assume that it is my dog that has the bad manners. It would be lovely to be able to pick my girl up and walk away when a small breed dog gives her a hard time but considering she weighs more then me it is a little tricky . I believe a thread was started about small and large breeds acting the same not to long ago..

I get that the larger breeds can do damage purely because of the size but smaller breed owners have to realise its not always a big breeds fault..Some of the smaller dogs suffer from "small man syndrome" and just dont give up.. A perfect example was my girl was playing at the beach with some other dogs (who she new) and a small x breed came up and kept sniffy/ licking my girls privates.. I obviously tried to pull my girl away but the little dog kept going and going, even when we were walking away.. Eventually Bella had enough and growled and showed teeth (yes a scary thing in its self when coming from a 67kilo dog) the other owner finnaly realised that my dog had had enough and said my dog had temper issues and I should control it better..

Im not condoning everything big dogs do... I think all dogs should have manners and owners should be able to see if there dogs is doing something wrong instead of blaming the other sized dog...

Sorry Rant over

Unfortunately, it's not the dog who should learn manners, it's the owners

[twodoggies2001]

Im glad everything turned ok ok for you saxonpup.... It must of been very scary

yes that sounds a scary experience...I have a medium sized dog, but i still worry when he plays with the bigger GSD's and mastifs etc

.

What worrys you about GSD's???? Have you had a previous bad experience with one? Im not beening nasty. Its just one thing that really gets my goat up.. I have a 13 month GSD (small size wise by breed standards) and I really get frustrated with people assuming she is nasty just because she is a GSD.... Just wanting to understand what makes people sacred..

I also have a 13 month Great Dane and get frustrated when people assume that it is my dog that has the bad manners. It would be lovely to be able to pick my girl up and walk away when a small breed dog gives her a hard time but considering she weighs more then me it is a little tricky . I believe a thread was started about small and large breeds acting the same not to long ago..

I get that the larger breeds can do damage purely because of the size but smaller breed owners have to realise its not always a big breeds fault..Some of the smaller dogs suffer from "small man syndrome" and just dont give up.. A perfect example was my girl was playing at the beach with some other dogs (who she new) and a small x breed came up and kept sniffy/ licking my girls privates.. I obviously tried to pull my girl away but the little dog kept going and going, even when we were walking away.. Eventually Bella had enough and growled and showed teeth (yes a scary thing in its self when coming from a 67kilo dog) the other owner finnaly realised that my dog had had enough and said my dog had temper issues and I should control it better..

Im not condoning everything big dogs do... I think all dogs should have manners and owners should be able to see if there dogs is doing something wrong instead of blaming the other sized dog...

Sorry Rant over

I can bet its nothing to do with the breed, its peoples perceptions and what they are taught/used too. An example is

I worked two Narcotic Detection dogs, both Labradors both Passive Alert Dogs one was Black one was gold, nobody fussed about the BIG male gold one but the wiry small female black one had people a bit scared!

People and their perceptions! lol

I myself favour large dogs ( any breed) but take a dislike to small fluffies ( any breed acutrally any small dog!) as they always seem to want to bark, snarl and carry on whats worse is the owners think its funny!

;)

I have owned both ends of the sizes. I have had great danes, where people would steer clear of us because of their sheer size.

they were actually pussy cats. I have now come down quite considerably in size to mini schnauzers, and these two do not always seem to want to bark like you say. You have been mixing in the wrong circles. Just because they are small, doesn't mean they can get away with bad behaviour. They are trained and disciplined just as I presume yours are. I don't think it's funny at all. No matter what size they are, they need the same treatment. I have seen some very unruly big dogs, and the owners don't seem to worry about it and think it's funny too.

[mita]

I don't take my small tibbies to an off-leash dog park. No more than I'd let my primary age son play in a secondary age rugby match.

I take my girls on leash along the walking tracks & we meet lots of dogs of all sizes, also on leash. Most owners are happy to allow some controlled socialisation. And it always goes well, whatever the size.....because it's controlled.

Numbers of the owners say they won't take their dogs to off-leash dog parks....for all sorts of reasons. Border Collie owner the other day, said her dog became too excitable. But was brilliant interacting with my 2 tibs. A few owners of the smaller dogs (especially the fluffies) have told me their dogs are frightened of other dogs....all dogs. But they've been fine with my girls....with all on leash & gradually allowed to approach each other.

Edited April 26, 2010 by mita

[Adnil444]

I don't take my small tibbies to an off-leash dog park. No more than I'd let my primary age son play in a secondary age rugby match.

I take my girls on leash along the walking tracks & we meet lots of dogs of all sizes, also on leash. Most owners are happy to allow some controlled socialisation. And it always goes well, whatever the size.....because it's controlled.

Numbers of the owners say they won't take their dogs to off-leash dog parks....for all sorts of reasons. Border Collie owner the other day, said her dog became too excitable. But was brilliant interacting with my 2 tibs. A few owners of the smaller dogs (especially the fluffies) have told me their dogs are frightened of other dogs....all dogs. But they've been fine with my girls....with all on leash & gradually allowed to approach each other.

Hi Mita, sounds like you are doing a perfect job with your two. Not every dog is meant for an off-leash park and dogs live perfectly happy lives without going into one - your dogs are meetings lots of different dogs, in controlled situations, which will only mean greater confidence and acceptability with your dogs as well as the dogs you meet. I take two of mine to off-leash parks at least 5 times a week, however I constantly watch mine (one in particular) as she does get excited if the small ones run and start to squeal. I immediately put her back on lead and have started asking the owners of the small dogs if I can do a couple of laps with them (mine on lead) so she won't get excited and the small dog gains confidence. I have seen far too often owners who are either totally ignorant or don't care (not sure) that their dogs are not enjoying their experience in the off-leash park and some cannot even tolerate another dog walking past without squealing, which as you know sets off all sorts of trouble. Mine is getting much better - lots of treats, walking with the smaller ones. She does play beautifully with a number of the smaller ones, but they have been well socialised and also are not the fluffy ones. My mini schnauzer no longer goes to off-leash parks as she is getting old and isn't very dog tolerant now due to diminishing eye sight and her hearing is going. I would worry that she would get bowled over by some of the others (possibly my other 2). She has gentle leash walks now.

[Black Bronson]

GSD's can be hard players and are often arrogant and disrespectful to small dogs especially if the small dog has some attitude. I personally would never trust my GSD to play nicely with a small dog as it doesn't take much of a playbite around the neck of a small dog to result in disaster. My boy has a completely different attitude towards large dogs especially other GSD's or Rotties where there seems to be a mutual respect and a set of rules that goes with the play it seems. Unless a small dog and a GSD are raised together or know each other well, I don't like the idea of allowing dogs of major size diffence to randomly interact.

Edited April 26, 2010 by Black Bronson

[jackie_a1]

I like dog parks but they are no longer for me. Razor is a (bull breed) and since baby Boss has come to the family he is quite protective. Razor used to attend tafe with me and enjoy the other dogs and socialization he is a great well balanced dog HOWEVER having Razor unleashed at a dog park with fluffies and other dogs equal or bigger than his size for me is like playing Russian roulette.

Especially when not just the dogs are unfamiliar but so are the owners. Some people hyperventilate and over react when they hear or see a low growl or reaction from a dog and panic others are completely ignorant and allow there dogs to escalate the situation without stepping in or handling the situation. I take Razor to a fenced off park in my area him and Boss run around happily together alone. Now dogs will often approach the fence and Razor always greets them with a high flagged tail and confident stare. Most dogs sniff him and leave happily running to their owners but there is the one dog that will raise his hackles and growl and bark then obviously Razor reacts. If I was to have Razor unleashed in a dog park and him to react like that, it would be irresponsible of me.

Some breeds in my own opinion are just not suited to off leash dog parks.

[Quick edit to say Razor and Boss are fenced in the park the dogs cannot get inside they meet with a fence between them]

Edited April 26, 2010 by jackie_a1

[dandybrush]

i do agree its the owner not the dog, but from my experience the pple who visit dog parks are the people who dont walk their dogs and just let them go crazy for 'exercise" and think the dog is just being "playful"

[Adnil444]

GSD's can be hard players and are often arrogant and disrespectful to small dogs especially if the small dog has some attitude. I personally would never trust my GSD to play nicely with a small dog as it doesn't take much of a playbite around the neck of a small dog to result in disaster. My boy has a completely different attitude towards large dogs especially other GSD's or Rotties where there seems to be a mutual respect and a set of rules that goes with the play it seems. Unless a small dog and a GSD are raised together or know each other well, I don't like the idea of allowing dogs of major size diffence to randomly interact.

I agree Black Bronson - it can work and does, but there are often troubles.

[mita]

I take two of mine to off-leash parks at least 5 times a week, however I constantly watch mine (one in particular) as she does get excited if the small ones run and start to squeal. I immediately put her back on lead and have started asking the owners of the small dogs if I can do a couple of laps with them (mine on lead) so she won't get excited and the small dog gains confidence. I have seen far too often owners who are either totally ignorant or don't care (not sure) that their dogs are not enjoying their experience in the off-leash park and some cannot even tolerate another dog walking past without squealing, which as you know sets off all sorts of trouble. Mine is getting much better - lots of treats, walking with the smaller ones. She does play beautifully with a number of the smaller ones, but they have been well socialised and also are not the fluffy ones. My mini schnauzer no longer goes to off-leash parks as she is getting old and isn't very dog tolerant now due to diminishing eye sight and her hearing is going. I would worry that she would get bowled over by some of the others (possibly my other 2). She has gentle leash walks now.

I should've mentioned we have a leash-free park in the next suburb which is divided so the smaller ones can be on their own. Must take my girls there one day!

But overall I agree with you that it's an owner's call on what their dog can tolerate re going to a dog park or not. And to keep an eagle eye on what's happening if they do. I like how you'll put a lead on your dog & then do a lap or two with a smaller dog. That's so like what we do on the walking track, isn't it. Because I often get the feeling that once the on-lead controlled introduction has been done....it'd be OK to take leads off.

[Adnil444]

I take two of mine to off-leash parks at least 5 times a week, however I constantly watch mine (one in particular) as she does get excited if the small ones run and start to squeal. I immediately put her back on lead and have started asking the owners of the small dogs if I can do a couple of laps with them (mine on lead) so she won't get excited and the small dog gains confidence. I have seen far too often owners who are either totally ignorant or don't care (not sure) that their dogs are not enjoying their experience in the off-leash park and some cannot even tolerate another dog walking past without squealing, which as you know sets off all sorts of trouble. Mine is getting much better - lots of treats, walking with the smaller ones. She does play beautifully with a number of the smaller ones, but they have been well socialised and also are not the fluffy ones. My mini schnauzer no longer goes to off-leash parks as she is getting old and isn't very dog tolerant now due to diminishing eye sight and her hearing is going. I would worry that she would get bowled over by some of the others (possibly my other 2). She has gentle leash walks now.

I should've mentioned we have a leash-free park in the next suburb which is divided so the smaller ones can be on their own. Must take my girls there one day!

But overall I agree with you that it's an owner's call on what their dog can tolerate re going to a dog park or not. And to keep an eagle eye on what's happening if they do. I like how you'll put a lead on your dog & then do a lap or two with a smaller dog. That's so like what we do on the walking track, isn't it. Because I often get the feeling that once the on-lead controlled introduction has been done....it'd be OK to take leads off.

Hi Mita,

If you go to the park that has been divided, I'd be really interested to know how you found it and how your girls went. I think they would be fine once the controlled introduction has been done and if you keep moving to take the leads off. I often see situations where the owners all stand around talking (and interacting with their dogs), but sometimes scuffles do happen, but if you keep moving (like doing laps of the park, or keep going along your walking track) they should be fine - but just be aware as I'm sure you are, as am I. Personally I would get more pleasure going for long walks with dogs on lead and chatting with fellow dog walkers, and they all got along nicely than just going to the dog park. When I had just one, I often used to walk with a neighbour in the morning - she has a lovely cavalier. We would walk for approx 1hr on weekday mornings and it was lovely - we walked briskly and the dogs got a nice workout, as we did as well we got to have a good chat about lots of things that mums love to chat about

I've just ordered a book - Great Dog Walks, which has lots of great dog walks that are for leash walks as well as a listing of each council and their off-leash parks. There are so many walks that I didn't know existed and am looking forward to discovering some of these.

[jackie_a1]

Adnil can you post some up in the Sydney area if you can once you've read the book!

[Adnil444]

Adnil can you post some up in the Sydney area if you can once you've read the book!

Sure can - looking forward to getting it so I can start letting other DOL people know about these walks. I'm in Sydney too.

[Simply Grand]

Just wanted to update you on this situation.

After reading everyone's posts, and my own experience with the other nearby dog park, I realise that I am very lucky to have a local dog park where most owners have some awareness of dog etiquette, many dogs are well behaved, and there is space to get away from others if necessary.

However, I still strongly believe that it comes down to responsibility and judgement for your own dog, not dog parks in general. For me the benefits still outweigh the risks. There are those people who don't care what their dogs do, and those who think that play at the dog park is an acceptable substitute for walks/exercise/training (just to be clear I often go to the park but a 30 minute walk first is usual practice, then free play for a while, and do regular training at home, and obedience).

Anyway, on the weekend we came across this same dog from the OP again. He came with a different member of the family, who came in, walked to the far end of the park and sat on the bench there for the rest of the time. The dog (5 month old GSD puppy) was left to entertain himself. I let him briefly greet Saxon, without realising it was him, then I decided he was too rough and we moved away. Some time later Saxon was playing with some other dogs and the GSD came running over. I saw him coming, called Saxon, who ran over and sat between my feet. As the GSD ran up I grabbed his collar. Saxon reacted with barking, I grabbed his collar too and held both apart, waiting *sigh* for the owner of the GSD to come get his dog, or at least call him.

He didn't. Eventually the GSD relaxed and sat. I called Saxon away, he had a bit more of a play with other dogs, then we left.

Saxon and I will not have anything more to do with this particular dog, unless his owners change their approach, it is not worth the risk. I feel sorry for the dog though, he's only 5 months old. What if he had been a cm closer and had bitten my lip? I could have dealt with it, but that could maim a child, or even a smaller adult, for life and after much thought, I decided I would have reported it, which could result in a dangerous dog order. I say that because the family didn't have control of their dog right up close BUT more importantly same family left their dog unattended the next time they came to the park. Recipe for disaster.

I don't expect an answer from anyone, I just think it is sad

[dandybrush]

yes that is sad, poor gsd puppy, there is nothing wrong with him, but their will be if they dont teach him manners in the dog park

after saying im not a fan of the dog park, i too still go in, for raz's socialisation. but its a 20 min walk to the park so raz is still getting his socialisation and training and exercise :D if there are certain dogs in the park I go into the other side (our park is split in 2, hardly anyone uses the second side) but raz likes to sniff anyways

Edited April 27, 2010 by dandybrush

[corvus]

I get cross when people make wild generalisations about the useless people at dog parks. I go to dog parks and off leash beaches all the time and you have to expect the unexpected. You have to assume that there will be dogs that will run up to your dogs. You have to assume the owners won't help you if their dog gets up to mischief. I treat them as a series of environmental variables. I concentrate on making sure my dogs have the skills and positive experiences to handle the hiccups and the tense moments. And I concentrate on making sensible judgment calls. Do I feed treats around that dog? Do I move to another part of the park rather than engage with that dog? Is this dog coming over going to pick a fight? I have to say in all the dog parks and dog beaches I've been to, I've only had a couple of moments that have worried me. I've had dozens from walking around on the streets and having territorial dogs come strutting out of their yards. Too many to count.

We have a local dog park that is fenced with a small dog and large dog section. We don't go there as that is one where problems occur at a much higher rate. I swear, fenced dog parks are worth avoiding. The small dog/large dog separation causes problems for us as we have a small dog and a large dog. Last time we went (which was the last time we ever went) we went to the small dog section and kept our large dog on leash. You could get into the small dog yard without going through the big dog yard. If I'd realised that I wouldn't have found myself holding my dog over my head and trying to push this other dog off me!