Gold Coast City Council You Make Me Sick!

[Jed]

hyjak, whippets has already stated she is in favour of BSL. Keep those nasty pitbulls off the streets and all that.

Apparently it is different when Amstaffs are threatened? I have no idea why that is. Apparently they deserve to run around, but APBT deserve to be banned?

And it was an Amstaff owner who petitioned the court, not an APBT owner.

BSL sure categorises folks.

[geo]

hyjak, whippets has already stated she is in favour of BSL. Keep those nasty pitbulls off the streets and all that.

Apparently it is different when Amstaffs are threatened? I have no idea why that is. Apparently they deserve to run around, but APBT deserve to be banned?

And it was an Amstaff owner who petitioned the court, not an APBT owner.

BSL sure categorises folks.

Yep it sure does put people on either side of the fence, and i cannot believe anyone who loves dogs (infact no-one on this whole forum) could possibly support BSL in any form, if they do then in my opinion they are just as guilty as the law makers for killing innocent pets.

[Black Bronson]

Is the Amstaff and APBT the same breed of different lines, like a working/show line GSD, or are they a completely different breed???. I understand that the court ruled them as the same breed from the evidence presented, but is ruling correct or not???.

[geo]

Is the Amstaff and APBT the same breed of different lines, like a working/show line GSD, or are they a completely different breed???. I understand that the court ruled them as the same breed from the evidence presented, but is ruling correct or not???.

That can't be answered by anyone without someone disagreeing, the Layman may have a case to say yes, but the learned breed fanciers will say no.

I can see both sides of the argument, but as far as Australia is concerned i feel they are different, in a same same but different sought of way.

It is easy to tell them apart over here i find.

[ari.g]

Shame on you all for dragging another breed into all this.

Yet another poor pathetic finger blaming response from the sour lemon

It's obvious you can't see past this, so why do you even bother coming In here

ETA: Continuing to blame the very people who have been and are still fighting hard In regards to BSL and for ALL dogs is very poor form, If you can't see that this is nothing other than a personal attack on one dog then you and the rest are not seeing the bigger picture.

[Jed]

Is the Amstaff and APBT the same breed of different lines, like a working/show line GSD, or are they a completely different breed???. I understand that the court ruled them as the same breed from the evidence presented, but is ruling correct or not???.

The court so ruled on the evidence presented. Other experts could have been called who would have presented totally different evidence - ie, that the two breeds are separate.

As people on this forum disagree, so do experts in the breeds.

I personally, think, as an outsider looking in, that the AST is a different breed, because of the years and generations away from APBT breeding, particularly in Australia. 4th generation is pure, according to genetics.

AST in Australia is AST continually mated to AST over ???? years and ???? generations, with no input from APBT. The ANKC would not allow APBT to be used.

Someone who breeds AST and knows more of the history of the breed can clarify time and generations.

Boxers are descended from Bulldogs. I can see very little of the bulldog in the boxer. The breeds went in different directions, and the bulldogs used in 1880+ were not the bulldogs of today.

No one would class a boxer as a bulldog, unless there were power games going on, as there is with BSL.

[Robbi]

I fear greatly the "snowball affect" first APBTs then Amstaffs then whichever other Bullbreed they decide to exterminate. As dog owners and lovers we have to stop the infighting and unite against BSL as it is going to be a huge disaster if we try to ignore it. At the moment some of us are sitting on the fence not overly concerned by BSL but it will come after many breeds before too long.

People may own for example Whippets and think they are safe as Whippets are delightful pets not roaming the streets mauling small children and attracting bad media coverage. Unfortunately with one legislation it could be on the BSL list as a Whippet is a sighthound and not on the list of approved dogs probably(this is my hypothetical opinion only)

So lets not lose sight of the bigger picture, as dog lovers we should fight to save all dogs not just our chosen type/breed.

I wasn't picking on Whippets, I own one

[tarope]

Unbelievable what a bloody joke, GCCC what a bunch of wankers you are.

If they get away with this BS what other breeds will they come after next. ;)

[GeckoTree]

I think theres also compounding problems associated with all this with adds like this appearing on simple trade etc, APBT's that aparently come with Victorian Canine Association (amstaff) pedigrees.

Paper hanged I think the term is.

DUAL Registered JEEP/REDBOY/SORRELLS PUPS

Melbourne, VIC 3109

Dual registered with VCA and GDBA - 2 males available. Will not be seeing dogs of this qualtiy available to the public again. first in best dressed ...

$ 2,000.00

VIC

Melbourne

MALE 3yr DUAL REGISTERED

Melbourne, VIC 3109

Beautiful Stud dog - Dual Registered, Phenomenal buy, great bloodlines, will not see a dog of this quality for sale for a long time. ...

$ 2,500.00

VIC

Melbourne

JEEP/REDBOY/SORRELLS DUAL REGISTERED 12mth FE...

Melbourne, VIC 3109

Red Rednose DUAL registered female VCA papers (AM STAFF) And GDBA papers from BJ BROWN

Phenomenal female, quality ...

Edited April 23, 2010 by GeckoTree

[WreckitWhippet]

Looks like someone forged some papers

[Jed]

I fear greatly the "snowball affect" first APBTs then Amstaffs then whichever other Bullbreed they decide to exterminate. As dog owners and lovers we have to stop the infighting and unite against BSL as it is going to be a huge disaster if we try to ignore it. At the moment some of us are sitting on the fence not overly concerned by BSL but it will come after many breeds before too long.

People may own for example Whippets and think they are safe as Whippets are delightful pets not roaming the streets mauling small children and attracting bad media coverage. Unfortunately with one legislation it could be on the BSL list as a Whippet is a sighthound and not on the list of approved dogs probably(this is my hypothetical opinion only)

So lets not lose sight of the bigger picture, as dog lovers we should fight to save all dogs not just our chosen type/breed.

I wasn't picking on Whippets, I own one

It's been quite obvious to me, and quite a few others on this forum, for years, that the rot of BSL would spread to other breeds. As it has in Europe.

And will continue to spread, until bull breeds, large dogs, hunting dogs, sighthounds, herding dogs, and toy dogs are all encompassed by BSL.

The fact that APBT now are not attacking, the "media staffy" is, according to the media is to me an indication that more bans will come. Prior to APBT bans, APBT were vilified in the media, now "staffies" are blamed for the majority of attacks, no matter what the dog looked like.

Some people just don't get it, some people do think banning some dogs will prevent attacks, some people simply don't care about dogs, only their own dogs.

Sad, really.

Hmm, Geo, I would want to know quite a lot more about that advertiser, and the dogs advertised, and I think the VCA (Dogsvic) would like to know more too!!

Edited April 23, 2010 by Jed

[Black Bronson]

Is the Amstaff and APBT the same breed of different lines, like a working/show line GSD, or are they a completely different breed???. I understand that the court ruled them as the same breed from the evidence presented, but is ruling correct or not???.

The court so ruled on the evidence presented. Other experts could have been called who would have presented totally different evidence - ie, that the two breeds are separate.

As people on this forum disagree, so do experts in the breeds.

I personally, think, as an outsider looking in, that the AST is a different breed, because of the years and generations away from APBT breeding, particularly in Australia. 4th generation is pure, according to genetics.

AST in Australia is AST continually mated to AST over ???? years and ???? generations, with no input from APBT. The ANKC would not allow APBT to be used.

Someone who breeds AST and knows more of the history of the breed can clarify time and generations.

Boxers are descended from Bulldogs. I can see very little of the bulldog in the boxer. The breeds went in different directions, and the bulldogs used in 1880+ were not the bulldogs of today.

No one would class a boxer as a bulldog, unless there were power games going on, as there is with BSL.

The "evidence presented" is really the issue in this case, as obviously there was insufficient contrary evidence presented in opposition. But having said that, a court ruling on that basis doesn't make it right or prove that they are the same breed by any means. The court ruling supported the best story on the day basically. I guess it's understandable to target the Amstaff once a court has determined that the breeds are the same with two different names which is a difficult situation. I don't think as some have mentioned, that targeting of Bull breeds in general is the basis of the Amstaff dilemma and is simply because the Amstaff has been directly connected with a restricted breed.

[Black Bronson]

I fear greatly the "snowball affect" first APBTs then Amstaffs then whichever other Bullbreed they decide to exterminate. As dog owners and lovers we have to stop the infighting and unite against BSL as it is going to be a huge disaster if we try to ignore it. At the moment some of us are sitting on the fence not overly concerned by BSL but it will come after many breeds before too long.

People may own for example Whippets and think they are safe as Whippets are delightful pets not roaming the streets mauling small children and attracting bad media coverage. Unfortunately with one legislation it could be on the BSL list as a Whippet is a sighthound and not on the list of approved dogs probably(this is my hypothetical opinion only)

So lets not lose sight of the bigger picture, as dog lovers we should fight to save all dogs not just our chosen type/breed.

I wasn't picking on Whippets, I own one

The "snowball effect" only occurred because a court ruled that another breed (Amstaff) was a different name for an APBT which is a restricted or banned breed. The intention of the court ruling was not to target other breeds into the BSL umbrella. If the evidence claimed that a Dalmation was the same as an ABPT, the Dalmation would be now in the spotlight in the same fashion as the Amstaff. I don't see this situation as an agenda to add more breeds to BSL.

[Robbi]

I fear greatly the "snowball affect" first APBTs then Amstaffs then whichever other Bullbreed they decide to exterminate. As dog owners and lovers we have to stop the infighting and unite against BSL as it is going to be a huge disaster if we try to ignore it. At the moment some of us are sitting on the fence not overly concerned by BSL but it will come after many breeds before too long.

People may own for example Whippets and think they are safe as Whippets are delightful pets not roaming the streets mauling small children and attracting bad media coverage. Unfortunately with one legislation it could be on the BSL list as a Whippet is a sighthound and not on the list of approved dogs probably(this is my hypothetical opinion only)

So lets not lose sight of the bigger picture, as dog lovers we should fight to save all dogs not just our chosen type/breed.

I wasn't picking on Whippets, I own one

The "snowball effect" only occurred because a court ruled that another breed (Amstaff) was a different name for an APBT which is a restricted or banned breed. The intention of the court ruling was not to target other breeds into the BSL umbrella. If the evidence claimed that a Dalmation was the same as an ABPT, the Dalmation would be now in the spotlight in the same fashion as the Amstaff. I don't see this situation as an agenda to add more breeds to BSL.

when you start to scratch the surface of BSL you soon discover that indeed there are many breeds on the chopping block, more knowledgeable people than me can explain the situation but it only takes a bit of digging to discover some of the breeds under threat due to their confirmation, genetics, perceived temprement faults and whatever the powers that be decide they dont like in a dog.

Breeds banned in different countries are quite diverse, these include-Dobermans, Akita's, German Shepherds, Rottweilers and many more.

[Jed]

Black Bronsen

The "snowball effect" only occurred because a court ruled that another breed (Amstaff) was a different name for an APBT which is a restricted or banned breed. The intention of the court ruling was not to target other breeds into the BSL umbrella. If the evidence claimed that a Dalmation was the same as an ABPT, the Dalmation would be now in the spotlight in the same fashion as the Amstaff. I don't see this situation as an agenda to add more breeds to BSL.

The "snowball" effect occurred in this case, because the litigant argued that the AST and APBT were the same breed. The court ruled on the argument presented to it, which is fair.

However, GCCC is not particularly dog friendly (to bull breeds anyhow) and in this particular case, the litigant had been a thorn in their side for quite some time. And the opportunity arose to add Amstaffs, so they are now considering it. Amstaffs have been in the gun sights for quite some time. The ANKC has been working hard to keep them from danger, and it had worked.

Various councils can make their own laws about banned or restricted breeds, and most of them did. There are other breeds included in other council by laws. I don't believe the situation with the court ruling was an agenda to include other breeds in BSL.

However, I believe, as per my earlier post, that more dogs will be added.

[smooth]

Has it ever occurred to anyone that the GCC would have known all along that the AST & APBT were one & the same but chose not pursue that seemingly obvious stategy in the courts because they actually did respect the status of an ANKC registered pure breed?

This litigant is probably a victim of the perpetuated misinformation regarding the AST not being the genuine, bred for conformation & temperament APBT , which is now in mortal danger of extinction in this country because one silly person didn't do enough personal research & instead relied on information proferred by equally uninformed or dishonest people.

They had the case won when the court amazingly ruled this progeny of unregistered progenitors was in fact an AST. How that came about is beyond belief. They should have quit then & there. I have given her the benefit of the doubt & say she was a victim because surely no one would be so stupid as to wittingly destroy their own case with their own evidence.

The GCC is quite within their rights to ban a generally regarded as socially undesirable "breed" from their precincts. It's their solution" that is obhorrent.

Now they have another breed to pursue if they feel so inclined. As do other precincts, country wide". if this tragedy runs it's full course.

This litigant, her advisors & supportersl will to blame. Fools, one & all.

Oh what tangled webs we weave when first we practice to deceive.

[geo]

The GCC is quite within their rights to ban a generally regarded as socially undesirable "breed" from their precincts. It's their solution" that is obhorrent.

Now they have another breed to pursue if they feel so inclined. As do other precincts, country wide". if this tragedy runs it's full course.

This litigant, her advisors & supportersl will to blame. Fools, one & all.

Oh what tangled webs we weave when first we practice to deceive.

The pitbull is only regarded as socially undesirable because of common public misconception. I agree that once they were the same breed but that was many many years ago, but i don't agree that the litigant set out to deceive anybody, let alone thought that all amstaffs would now be in this terrible position.

I just wish that everyone would set their sights on getting the amstaff out of this mess instead of blaming just 1 person for putting them into it.

Many poeple can't believe that their dogs have now been lumped into the BSL debacle, along with the poor pitty, they'll now be tarred with the media brush and any attacks will soon become amstaff crosses instead of pitbull just so they can justify banning it!

So the sooner people band together and stop poitning the finger the better for all breeds!

[Amstaffs4me]

Exactly Geo , Well said!

[Black Bronson]

Public misconception is a massive problem to overcome with the Pitty and to be honest, I was never overly interested in the APBT and didn't care about them much UNTIL I MET ONE I didn't even know the dog was an APBT and thought she was a Bully cross, Amstaff appearance but smaller with a red nose. Having known this dog for some time who was a lovely friendly obedient pet who was NOT dog aggressive in the slightest, I asked the owner what she was who replied, "oh she's a Pitbull" The public need to see these good APBT examples, as most people wouldn't know what breed they are and judge the dog on it's own merits. I know a dozen APBT's that I have met, ALL of those are great dogs, no issues with them in any way People really need to actually meet some APBT's and let their own experiences over-ride media sensationalism about the dangers of the breed.

[Dogawne]

Any chance of someone posting a couple of photos of ABPT and the staffs, I would just like to learn what are the diffrences in the looks please