Positive +, Positive -

[Luke GSP]

Hi everyone,

Just wondering if someone could clarify positive +/- I believe that positive + would be the application or introduction (adding) of something to reward a correct action or responce, such as telling a dog to sit and then giving it a food treat or stroke etc once that action was completed. I am however struggling with positive- as it suggests to me that something is taken away but I am struggling to think of an example? Probably a dumb question but I cannot see why a dog would do something that would get something removed unless the something was in some form or another negative? as in when people pinch train gun dogs to keep hold of an item until told to release.(Obviously I am not suggesting that this would be an example of positive- just looking for an example of application, complete desired action, remove application or if you do this then I will remove X which is what you (the dog) desire) Maybe I have got it all wrong but in my head I have always though that the =/- refered purely to whether you added something or took something away?

[Aidan]

http://ezinearticles.com/?Secrets-of-Dog-T...g&id=201252

[Kavik]

Hi everyone,

Just wondering if someone could clarify positive +/- I believe that positive + would be the application or introduction (adding) of something to reward a correct action or responce, such as telling a dog to sit and then giving it a food treat or stroke etc once that action was completed. I am however struggling with positive- as it suggests to me that something is taken away but I am struggling to think of an example? Probably a dumb question but I cannot see why a dog would do something that would get something removed unless the something was in some form or another negative? as in when people pinch train gun dogs to keep hold of an item until told to release.(Obviously I am not suggesting that this would be an example of positive- just looking for an example of application, complete desired action, remove application or if you do this then I will remove X which is what you (the dog) desire) Maybe I have got it all wrong but in my head I have always though that the =/- refered purely to whether you added something or took something away?

Yep you are right - taking something away from the dog that increases a behaviour

The article linked explained it well but used a bad example - I don't know anyone who teaches sit by pulling up on the collar! The most usual examples given are the forced retrieve like you gave or the use of an ecollar where the stim is given and when the dog complies the stim is turned off.

[Aussienot]

The P stands for punishment, not positive. So P +/- would be used to minimize or extinguish behaviours. A leash correction for lunging is an example of positive punishment (P+), and stopping play if a puppy mouths you is an example of negative punishment (P-).

R for Reinforcement is used to create behaviours. A treat is the classic example of positive reinforcement (R+). The ear pinch to build a retrieve is an example of negative reinforcement (R-).

So, you are correct that the + or - indicates adding or taking something away but you also have to factor in if you are reinforceing or punishing.

Learning theory is neutral on the subject, it's only dog trainers who use the terms Positive and Negative in moral ways. Most "positive" trainers use lots of R+ and maybe some P- but little or no P+.

[Luke GSP]

Hi everyone,

Just wondering if someone could clarify positive +/- I believe that positive + would be the application or introduction (adding) of something to reward a correct action or responce, such as telling a dog to sit and then giving it a food treat or stroke etc once that action was completed. I am however struggling with positive- as it suggests to me that something is taken away but I am struggling to think of an example? Probably a dumb question but I cannot see why a dog would do something that would get something removed unless the something was in some form or another negative? as in when people pinch train gun dogs to keep hold of an item until told to release.(Obviously I am not suggesting that this would be an example of positive- just looking for an example of application, complete desired action, remove application or if you do this then I will remove X which is what you (the dog) desire) Maybe I have got it all wrong but in my head I have always though that the =/- refered purely to whether you added something or took something away?

Yep you are right - taking something away from the dog that increases a behaviour

The article linked explained it well but used a bad example - I don't know anyone who teaches sit by pulling up on the collar! The most usual examples given are the forced retrieve like you gave or the use of an ecollar where the stim is given and when the dog complies the stim is turned off.

The pre command stim on a e-collar makes sense to me, thanks it does raise the question though that when people talk about purely positive methods they are surely talking about purely +R -P +P?

Edited April 21, 2010 by Luke GSP

[Aidan]

The article linked explained it well but used a bad example - I don't know anyone who teaches sit by pulling up on the collar!

Standard obedience club method in the days I used to go to obedience clubs and still a common method when I wrote that article. Often combined with a firm push on the rump. Thankfully most have moved on these days.

[Aidan]

when people talk about purely positive methods they are surely talking about purely +R -P?

Pretty much, as much as possible +R, extinction and some limited -P where it makes sense.

[Luke GSP]

The P stands for punishment, not positive. So P +/- would be used to minimize or extinguish behaviours. A leash correction for lunging is an example of positive punishment (P+), and stopping play if a puppy mouths you is an example of negative punishment (P-).

R for Reinforcement is used to create behaviours. A treat is the classic example of positive reinforcement (R+). The ear pinch to build a retrieve is an example of negative reinforcement (R-).

So, you are correct that the + or - indicates adding or taking something away but you also have to factor in if you are reinforceing or punishing.

Learning theory is neutral on the subject, it's only dog trainers who use the terms Positive and Negative in moral ways. Most "positive" trainers use lots of R+ and maybe some P- but little or no P+.

It makes much more sense to me now, as it it would appear to me that the names are really just non emotional/non moral labels as opposed to the implied moral stance of the word positive or negative when used by some people?

[Pippi]

The article linked explained it well but used a bad example - I don't know anyone who teaches sit by pulling up on the collar!

Standard obedience club method in the days I used to go to obedience clubs and still a common method when I wrote that article. Often combined with a firm push on the rump. Thankfully most have moved on these days.

I don't think its a bad example at all. Instructors may not teach it much these days, but I see it happening at classes every week, where handlers still seem to think its a good idea

[Kavik]

I don't see it as as good an example of how -R works as say force retrieve or ecollar. In that the collar pressure is not the only thing done (only thing mentioned in the article, doesn't say pressing on rump) and the others are done to give the dog a choice and show them how to turn the pressure off. I don't see pressure on collar to make the dog sit quite the same way. I see it as part of guide/show/place with the pressing on the rump. Training with compulsion, certainly.

And even places that teach with guide/show/place that I have seen don't do pressure on collar, command, comply, release pressure. They tend to do pressure on collar (to keep head up) and on rump at the same time as command. From what I understand -R the pressure comes BEFORE any command.

Edited April 21, 2010 by Kavik

[Lablover]

It makes much more sense to me now, as it it would appear to me that the names are really just non emotional/non moral labels as opposed to the implied moral stance of the word positive or negative when used by some people?

I think so.

Overseas I observed FF, which varied, depending on the trainer from excellent to TORTURE.

One of the most enjoyable conversations regarding negative reinforcement I have had was with a famous (horse) dressage trainer and one of his grooms.

[Aidan]

From what I understand -R the pressure comes BEFORE any command.

Before or simultaneously, it doesn't change what it is. Even if the cue came first or there was never a verbal cue, it would still be -R. The important thing is that a stimulus is removed contingent upon the response which is what happens in the example given.

The important part about applying the stimulus before the cue is to associate the cue with the response. You don't want collar pressure or hand on rump to be the cue. But that's a different issue. Generally if you're collar training the sit you apply pressure, cue 'sit', then remove the pressure when the dog sits. It works but it's not a whole lot of fun. It can get quite a quick response though, as a lot of -R procedures do.