Why Should I Buy A Pure Bred Dog?

[poodlefan]

Actually I have a bit of a problem with you. Why weren't you up front at the beginning of this thread?

My guess is Bails wanted someone to suggest that health issues were never a concern for pups from registered purebred dog breeders.

Of course, that's an assurance that could not be given. Health issues can be managed to minimise them for the most part. Without a clear genetic cause and a test to find it, no one can give absolute guarantees. ;)

[W Sibs]

Sorry to hear about your situation.

The main reason I'm looking into getting a pup from a registered breeder is because of health. I need to know the health history of the pup's parents and all that. Then, again, I know that there is never 100% guarantee but knowing that both parents are all healthy, is better then not knowing.

As for the HD, my CKCS x shih tzu has HD. He didn't when he was a puppy but it developed (the same time when he became sick). No vets with operate on him to fix it (due to his back) and I don't want him to be operated on.

How bad is your pup's HD? What has the vet say to managed it?

Charlie is on Metacam (anti inflammatory) when he is sore. We go on walks and I've started to let him practice his swimming in the bathtub (he is very little)... he has a heat bed for winter (although he always end up on the bed under the doona with me ).

[Diva]

When we advised our breeder of her diagnosis, they were not very sympathic and seemed to take it personally. They did not provide us with any advice as to what to do or even show any empathy......

Has anyone else had any experiences like this?

Yes I have.

I'd still only buy from a registered breeder. But I no longer assume that being registered, or being successful in the show ring, by itself means much in terms of ongoing interest in the health of their stock. Not sure what the answer is but I think initiatives like the Master Dog Breeders Association is a start, and personal recommendations as to who to buy a puppy from are also important.

[Erny]

When we advised our breeder of her diagnosis, they were not very sympathic and seemed to take it personally. They did not provide us with any advice as to what to do or even show any empathy......

Has anyone else had any experiences like this?

Yes I have.

I'd still only buy from a registered breeder. But I no longer assume that being registered, or being successful in the show ring, by itself means much in terms of ongoing interest in the health of their stock. Not sure what the answer is but I think initiatives like the Master Dog Breeders Association is a start, and personal recommendations as to who to buy a puppy from are also important.

I'm in the same boat and have the same thoughts as Diva.

[lappiemum]

Personal recommendations are very important - as is doing your homework and asking questions of breeders.

Sorry to hear about your pup's HD. By the way, you don't have wooden floors do you? Thats something that unless monitored can be a problem in accerbating a hip problem.

If not, and there are absolutley no environmental factors (such as puppy jumping on and off beds!) then unfortunately its the luck of the draw. By the sounds of it your breeder has done the necessary health testing for the parents, and if there is nothing in the line then its really just very unfortunate.

What advice have you been given for managing this? What degree of severity is the HD - your puppy is obvious signs of pain?

[tarope]

Hi bails,

Welcome to DOL and I'm very sorry for you,before buying did the breeder show you the Hip and Elbow scores for both parents. This is still no guarantee but it gives you an idea of what the parents are like, you should have been given copies of the Hip and Elbow scores when you took your pup home.

Both mine came from good breeders and are healthy, meaning I was lucky. I had another breed with a serious health problem and the breeder gave me the cold shoulder, so I know how you feel.

[raineth]

When we advised our breeder of her diagnosis, they were not very sympathic and seemed to take it personally. They did not provide us with any advice as to what to do or even show any empathy......

Has anyone else had any experiences like this?

Yes I have.

I'd still only buy from a registered breeder. But I no longer assume that being registered, or being successful in the show ring, by itself means much in terms of ongoing interest in the health of their stock. Not sure what the answer is but I think initiatives like the Master Dog Breeders Association is a start, and personal recommendations as to who to buy a puppy from are also important.

I'm in the same boat and have the same thoughts as Diva.

This has been the situation with me too.

I spent a lot of time finding a breeder who I thought was very good.

My dog, who I utterly adored, had allergies, a heart murmur, one displastic hip, and a vertebra that was compressing his spinal cord. I had numerous tests done, and was told that he had maybe six motnths to live. We ended up having him operated on at a Specialist facility at a university. Unfortunately during the operation he had a stroke. He was 14 months old. We spent another week trying everything to save him but it became obvious that there was nothing that would get him through.

I kept the breeder informed the whole time, and she even had the specialist's mobile number so she could ask him questions. The specialist informed me that his vertebral problem would have been present from birth. But she never called him.

I was told both parents had been hipscored with good results. But I don't know if this is true as stupidly I did not ask for evidence. This breeder guarantees against genetic defects. She also did not tell me the truth about other problems that had come up in her lines.

As he was my first (and so far only) purebred dog it has been hard to move on from. It is very hard to trust breeders now.

But there really are fantastic breeders out there. It can just be really hard to find them!

I'm really sorry your dog has HD and that you are not getting the support you would expect from a good breeder.

[sas]

Actually I have a bit of a problem with you. Why weren't you up front at the beginning of this thread?

Why so defensive? It's irrelevant what the original post was anyway, the dog has HD, no one will ever know how it got it, both the parents were hip scored then at least the breeder was doing the right thing to start with, one would hope the breeder would give you some support and advice upon finding out though?

Edited April 22, 2010 by sas

[Jed]

As a breeder, you can do every test under the sun, and something still goes wrong. Sometimes it's hereditary, and sometimes, it simply comes under the "s##t happens category". I once bought a beautiful, well bred pup from healthy lines, only to have it develop some terribly complicated and expensive medical condition. A friend bred a pup and sold it, at 10 months, the spine collapsed, the pup was pts.

Dogs who have low hip scores may still produce HD affected pups. Dogs which are clear of LP may still produce pups with LP.

Dogs with wonderful hearts may produce a pup with a murmur.

There can be no guarantees of lifelong good health with any living thing, no matter how much care both breeder and owner take.

"S##t happens" does happen in a percentage of dogs.

IMHO, it is how the owner, and the breeder handle the problem which is important.

And breeders need to learn that "s##t happens" in THEIR lines too, and make allowances for it. Most owners want support and understanding, and breeders should be prepared to offer it.

It is how breeders handle questions and problems which sets them apart. Not be defensive, be accepting, read and understand the evidence, and talk to the buyer about the problems, try to come to some mutually acceptable solution, and provide ongoing support.

Some breeders are not good communicators, some just don't want to face problems.

I'd also like to say to buyers - keep up some sort of contact with the breeder. An email occasionally, a photo, so if there is a problem, you have some sort of communication open with the breeder. I don't expect my puppy buyers to be emailing me weekly, but if there is a problem when the dog is 2, its easier for me to deal with if I have had some contact with the buyer, and some knowledge of the pup as he grows.

raineth

This breeder guarantees against genetic defects. She also did not tell me the truth about other problems that had come up in her lines.

Very sad, raineth. What did the breeder do to honour the genetic guarantee? Was it in writing?

Bails, have x-rays and scores been done? Do you have a prognosis? It may be, with suitable management that the dog will be ok. Vet I know was taking dogs with HD and putting them onto graduated exercise to strengthen the muscles and ligaments. That treatment was successful with most dogs, particularly young, growing dogs.

I've been very fortunate with my breeders, most of them have been absolute gems. I know the last couple would come good if there was anything wrong with the dogs they sold me. We email and talk often, and they share knowledge, wisdom and advice with me.

I aspire to be like them.

[Rebanne]

Actually I have a bit of a problem with you. Why weren't you up front at the beginning of this thread?

Why so defensive? It's irrelevant what the original post was anyway, the dog has HD, no one will ever know how it got it, both the parents were hip scored then at least the breeder was doing the right thing to start with, one would hope the breeder would give you some support and advice upon finding out though?

I felt the thread was sneaky. At least I am honest about what I am thinking.

[raineth]

As a breeder, you can do every test under the sun, and something still goes wrong. Sometimes it's hereditary, and sometimes, it simply comes under the "s##t happens category". I once bought a beautiful, well bred pup from healthy lines, only to have it develop some terribly complicated and expensive medical condition. A friend bred a pup and sold it, at 10 months, the spine collapsed, the pup was pts.

Dogs who have low hip scores may still produce HD affected pups. Dogs which are clear of LP may still produce pups with LP.

Dogs with wonderful hearts may produce a pup with a murmur.

There can be no guarantees of lifelong good health with any living thing, no matter how much care both breeder and owner take.

"S##t happens" does happen in a percentage of dogs.

IMHO, it is how the owner, and the breeder handle the problem which is important.

And breeders need to learn that "s##t happens" in THEIR lines too, and make allowances for it. Most owners want support and understanding, and breeders should be prepared to offer it.

It is how breeders handle questions and problems which sets them apart. Not be defensive, be accepting, read and understand the evidence, and talk to the buyer about the problems, try to come to some mutually acceptable solution, and provide ongoing support.

Some breeders are not good communicators, some just don't want to face problems.

I'd also like to say to buyers - keep up some sort of contact with the breeder. An email occasionally, a photo, so if there is a problem, you have some sort of communication open with the breeder. I don't expect my puppy buyers to be emailing me weekly, but if there is a problem when the dog is 2, its easier for me to deal with if I have had some contact with the buyer, and some knowledge of the pup as he grows.

raineth

This breeder guarantees against genetic defects. She also did not tell me the truth about other problems that had come up in her lines.

Very sad, raineth. What did the breeder do to honour the genetic guarantee? Was it in writing?

Bails, have x-rays and scores been done? Do you have a prognosis? It may be, with suitable management that the dog will be ok. Vet I know was taking dogs with HD and putting them onto graduated exercise to strengthen the muscles and ligaments. That treatment was successful with most dogs, particularly young, growing dogs.

I've been very fortunate with my breeders, most of them have been absolute gems. I know the last couple would come good if there was anything wrong with the dogs they sold me. We email and talk often, and they share knowledge, wisdom and advice with me.

I aspire to be like them.

I really agree with what you said Jed.

My Breeder was very sympathetic when I talked to her on the phone yet she also denied that he could have a condition like that as her lines just didn't have that sort of thing in them. Then later I found out that wasn't true.

The breeder did not do anything to honour the genetic guarantee.

The bit about genetic guarantee was written down but only in the 'puppy notice' on DOL. Susbsequent litters she has still displayed the 'guaranteed free from genetic fault' bit. I can't remember what the exact wording was and I can't find it as she doesn't have a litter at the moment.

But someone who is familiar with our situation told me that it wouldn't cover our situation as there is no genetic test for vertebral malformations. I think it was just one of those nifty advertisements that gave me a false sense of security - but in reality meant nothing.

Edited because of confusing typos

Edited April 22, 2010 by raineth

[mita]

Actually I have a bit of a problem with you. Why weren't you up front at the beginning of this thread?

Why so defensive? It's irrelevant what the original post was anyway, the dog has HD, no one will ever know how it got it, both the parents were hip scored then at least the breeder was doing the right thing to start with, one would hope the breeder would give you some support and advice upon finding out though?

Not defensive, IMO, but descriptive of the behaviour. The general nature of the Original Post led people to believe it was a general question about reasons for buying a purebred dog. That's why people...like me...posted about temperament & trait predictability. If I'd known the OP's specific interest was a specific health issue (HD), I'd have posted about that issue.

I'll do so, now. HD is genetically mediated to a certain percentage. There is also the fact that HD can be related to the vulnerable period of development when the spurts of tissue growth & joint growth are out of sync. Certainly caution re diet & exercise can reduce that.

But there is no sure eradication. It also helps to remember that cats & mixed breed dogs can also develop HD.

All of that is cold comfort for the OP, whose dog has developed HD. And I can understand the OP's disappointment in feeling the breeder acted coldly when it was reported. As well as the disappointment that the OP had thought buying a purebred was the safest track.

Yes....safest, I'd agree...given breeders who monitor their stock & who advise puppy buyers re health & exercise. But the reality is that, even given those breeder interventions, a heath problem such as HD can emerge.

Edited April 23, 2010 by mita

[Elsha_UK_AU]

I am sorry to hear that your Dog has HD

Buying from a breeder doesn't completely safeguard your pet from ever getting anything. Sometimes things happen, even if both parent dogs, and parent dogs before them have been tested. Our last CKCS was bought from a breeder who heart tested and did all the things necessary for MVD which is a disease that a lot of CKCS can develop. Sam died at about 6 from MVD. Even knowing the problems CKCS can face, MVD, SM, Patella and eye issues....I still love the breed and have 2 sleeping behind me as I type this message.

I bought both from a good breeder, heart tested etc etc but even so, I know it is not a 100% guarantee that they won't develop heart issues later on. The pain of losing Sam was great but hasn't put me off the breed.... I had 6 wonderful years with him.

At the end of the day I prefer breeders.... I am sorry you have not had a good relationship with yours since the diagnosis.

Susan

[sas]

I'll do so, now. HD is genetically mediated to a certain percentage. There is also the fact that HD can be related to the vulnerable period of development when the spurts of tissue growth & joint growth are out of sync. Certainly caution re diet & exercise can reduce that.

Can you provide a linky to that? I've heard alot of 'reasons' for HD but not that one.

Side note: I wasn't asking you why so defensive, I was asking Rebanne.

[mita]

This has definately been a learning curve for us, when we purchase our next GSD, we will be doing lots and lots of research

Good move. Re Hip Dysplasia, specially look at the work of Jerold Bell from Tufts University.

There's an earlier paper which remains good as a starting place about what's involved in hip dysplasia....so what has to be dealt with in the 'battle' (his word) against it.

http://74.125.153.132/search?q=cache%3AHXn...hl=en&gl=au

It'll give you ideas on topics to research further....& specially to follow up his later work & that of the other researchers he refers to.

[Jed]

Mita, would you consider posting that thread on the forum for studies about dogs? It seems to be a good one, and if it is there, it wont be lost as threads move down.

[Black Bronson]

I would like to know a bit more about the GSD with HD, who xray'd it and determined the results and what it's actual score is. I remember a friend's Golden Retriever diagnosed with HD by a vet due to a limp which was a strained ligament from jumping off a wall and over time the dog fully recovered. How old is the GSD and what it's symptoms are is something of interest???.

Ancestor hip scores would be interesting, perhaps both parents just under the cut off, personally I like to see the numbers more so than passing a breed survey. Perhaps the OP can provide us with some more detail???

[Rebanne]

I'll do so, now. HD is genetically mediated to a certain percentage. There is also the fact that HD can be related to the vulnerable period of development when the spurts of tissue growth & joint growth are out of sync. Certainly caution re diet & exercise can reduce that.

Can you provide a linky to that? I've heard alot of 'reasons' for HD but not that one.

Side note: I wasn't asking you why so defensive, I was asking Rebanne.

and I wasn't defensive at all, just don't like people not being upfront about their intentions

[Jed]

Bails, this may be of help.

Ester C in large doses has been found to be beneficial. Dr. Wendall Belsfield did prevent CHD in litters of GSD. There is also evidence that the use of Ester C in dysplastic dogs did help, as per the article below. There does some to be some clinical trials done too.

I went to Dr. Belsfield's site to download for you, but it didn't load properly, but a search of DOL brought this up. You could google Dr. Belsfield, and find the site, or other sites and read for yourself. I don't believe Ester C does any harm (a lot of breeders feed it as a routine thing, and Dr. Billinghurst recommends it), and if I had a dysplastic dog, and there was a chance it would assist, I would be using it.

No dog is born with HD - it develops - and I often wonder if modern life/pollutants/some inbalance in the diet assists.

Hope this helps your dog, bails.

Ester-C: Miracle Cure for Hip Dysplasia???

By Larry Mueller, Hunting Dogs Editor, Outdoor Life.

Reprinted from Outdoor Life, January, 1996.

An acquaintance of mine, B.J. Richardson, was calling from Texas, doubt and

hope in his voice. "My English Pointer isn't a year old, and he's already

lame in the rear end, especially the left hip," Richardson said. "The X-rays

show hip dysplasia. The veterinarian says there are two choices: operate to

alleviate the pain, or put the dog down. I can't afford one and won't do the

other. Is it true that Vitamin C might help?"

I had to say that I'd never heard of Vitamin C curing canine hip dysplasia,

but I was aware that veterinarian Wendell Belsfield of San Jose, CA, did

prevent CHD -- or least its symptoms -- in eight litters of German

shepherds,

a breed that is prone to crippling abnormal development of a dog's hip

joints. In those instances, all of the dogs' parents had CHD or had

previously whelped pups that became dysplastic. Belsfield gave the bitches

Vitamin C throughout pregnancy and lactation. The pups received Vitamin C

from weaning until they were two years old. None of the pups developed CHD

during that entire period.

Though Belsfield's work wasn't scientific in the strict sense, it certainly

indicated that CHD could be prevented. Still I couldn't see how the joint

could be remodeled once it had grown improperly, at least not without

surgery. However, Vitamin C therapy seemed to be Richardson's only hope, so

I

told him what I knew.

Many readers had written and told me that their arthritic dogs normally were

laid up after a few hours in the field, but when given Vitamin C, they could

hunt several days in a row. None had said they did it with dogs that had

CHD,

but maybe....

I also recalled reading about the efforts of Dr. Bob Cathcart, a medical

doctor in California who championed the use of Vitamin C in curing a wide

variety of joint ailments and illnesses. Much of his work centered around

using the vitamin in large quantities, increasing the doses until the body

reaches "bowel tolerances." Though Cathcart's work was with human patients,

many veterinarians adopted his method, saying that Vitamin C should be given

in increasing doses until the dog's stools loosen, at which point the dose

should be backed off a half a gram or a gram at a time until the stools

became firm again. At that point, the dog's body receives the maximum

Vitamin

C that it can utilize.

I also understood that a superior form of the vitamin is Ester-C, which can

be purchased in health food stores. The vitamin in Ester-C is molecularly

locked to calcium, so it doesn't cause the acidity problems normally

associated with ascorbic acid (the common form of Vitamin C), which can

upset

a dog's stomach. Ester-C also has natural C metabolites that get it into the

cells faster and more effectively (common ascorbic acid is slower getting

out

of the blood serum, so it passes through the kidneys, where much of it is

rapidly lost in the urine).

Pinto's Rebound

A month or two later, I heard that Pinto, Richardson's dog, had begun

improving less than a week after receiving maximum doses of Ester-C. Pinto,

the grandson of Miller's Chief -- an 11-time champion in horseback-style

bird-dog trials -- was now running like the wind. I was as surprised as I

was

delighted.

Two years later, I was in Texas and dropped in to see Pinto. Richardson had

kept him on a maintenance dose of Ester-C. The dog was moving with a fluid

grace and power in the hips. Twice, for a step or two, I saw a bunny hop,

suggesting that not everything was 100 percent correct. But both times,

Pinto

immediately shifted back to a normal gait.

I still couldn't understand how Ester-C could remodel a defective joint, but

I was hopeful. Nobody I knew whose debilitated dog had improved clinically

on

Ester-C had ever taken X-rays of the joints, so I asked Richardson to have

X-rays taken.

He did and mailed me the original X-ray taken two years before and a new

one.

I showed both to Dianna K. Stuckey, a board certified radiologist in St.

Louis, who looked at the original and pointed out the hip dysplasia with the

left hip most severe. The second? "Arthritis that customarily follows hip

dysplasia," she said. I explained Pinto's quick and lasting response to

Ester-C. "How could this dog go from lame to moving freely, and apparently

without pain, in a few days -- and stay that way without something improving

in the joints?"

"We occasionally see this," Stuckey said. "A dog is arthritic yet moves as

if

it feels no pain. We don't know why. Great 'heart' maybe, or high pain

tolerance."

Mystery Unfolds

I'm sure that veterinarians do see this. But the answer to my question,

Pinto's improvement was not because of great heart or high pain tolerance.

He

had been hurting and he had been limping badly. If his response to such pain

improved in just a few days, something caused that change.

Dr. Chuck Noonam of Weston, CT also compared the X-rays. He noticed slight

improvement in the severity of the dysplasia but said the hip joint had

clearly succumbed to degenerate arthritis from the dysplastic hip joint

banging around in and out of the socket.

"Eighty-three percent of dysplastic dogs either show an improvement in their

hip dysplasia or they learn to deal with the problem as they grow older,"

Noonan said. "The second X-ray shows that the dysplasia is slightly less

severe, but because of the arthritis, the joint is worse overall than in the

earlier X-ray. It is possible that the Vitamin C was helping to sort of

lubricate the joint so the dog felt less pain."

In my investigations, I had found that Pinto's results from Ester-C weren't

unique. Soon after Richardson first called, I received a letter from Steve

Dudley of Arizona. His young black Lab, who showed great promise at hunting

Gambel's quail, went lame with CHD. Dudley's vet suggested that Dudley

replace the hip -- or expect to put the dog down by age four. Dudley tried

Ester-C instead and the dog promptly improved. Kept on Ester-C, the dog

lived

until age 13 without showing signs of soreness, lameness, or unwillingness

to

hunt, Dudley wrote.

Flood of Proof

My investigation also led to Charles Docktor, an Arizona veterinarian who

was

the first to test Ester-C for its effectiveness in healing joint problems.

In

1983, he used Ester-C on a large number of arthritic dogs, finding that 75

percent improved in various degrees in a short period of time.

Independently, a continent away, Dr. Geir Erick Berge, a veterinarian in

Oslo, Norway, performed a similar study, that was reported in the August-S

eptember 1990 issue of The Norwegian Veterinary Journal. Berge selected 100

dogs with a variety of joint ailments. His testing revealed that 75 percent

of the dogs rapidly improved on Ester-C, some only slightly, some almost

totally. Dr. Berge added that large amounts of Vitamin C metabolites,

substances essential to a body's metabolic processes, are required in

rebuilding diseased joint tissue.

Corroborating data were also reported by Dr. N. Lee Newman, who conducted 18

months of clinical tests using Ester-C to combat degenerative joint disease

in performance horses. She reported a remarkable 90 percent success rate,

ranging from good to excellent. Furthermore, 80 percent of the improved

horses remained sound after Ester-C was discontinued. Newman credited

supplemental Ester-C with maintaining the integrity of collagen and

connective tissue and with mobilizing white cells in the immune system,

while

deactivating free radicals that damage cell membranes.

But other respected voices were making contradictory statements. The Cornell

University College of Veterinary Medicine Animal Health newsletter in May

1995 denied that Vitamin C was of any value for either preventing or

treating

skeletal diseases in dogs. "There have been absolutely no confirmed reports

that Vitamin C is helpful in any such instances," the newsletter stated. It

went on to theorize that supplemental Vitamin C has no value because dogs

produce adequate amounts of the vitamin in their livers.

But that reasoning is questionable. Vitamin C production varies from dog to

dog, individual bodily needs vary, and circumstances -- health and

environment -- vary enormously. "Adequate" in human medicine only means

enough Vitamin C to prevent scurvy. What is adequate for a strict carnivore

like a dog? And in any case, "adequate" should not be assumed to be a

synonym

for "optimum."

This is where a Vitamin C standoff occurs, and getting people to change

their

scientific opinion is like asking them to change their religion. In

Cornell's

favor, the evidence that has existed supporting the use of Vitamin C on

dysplastic dogs is heavily anecdotal. Even the various veterinarians'

research that has been cited was actually efficacy tests -- that is, all of

the dogs tested were given similar doses of the vitamin and no controlled

comparisons were made. Efficacy testing strongly suggests conclusive

evidence, but it does not provide scientific proof.

The Acid Test

But in 1994, veterinarian L. Philips Brown presented the results of

scientifically acceptable "double-blind crossover" study on the effects of

Vitamin C to a national conference on holistic veterinary medicine. Brown,

the owner of the largest veterinary hospital on Cape Code for 22 years,

tested Vitamin C on 50 dogs with serious joint problems. The dogs were among

a population of more than 500 canines at a large animal sanctuary in Utah.

It

should be noted here that representatives of Inter-Cal, makers of Ester-C,

specifically asked Brown to study the vitamin because they felt it could

have

a major role in the treatment of joint abnormalities. Dave Stenmoe, one of

the representatives of the manufacturer, says "We told [brown] not to take

our word for anything." Just to keep an open mind and conduct a scientific

comparison of Ester-C, ordinary Vitamin C, and a placebo. He finally agreed

to do it.

Brown, along with the Utah sanctuary's resident veterinarian, hand-picked

the

dogs with the worst cases of joint disease and placed them in five groups.

After four weeks of testing, the supplements were withdrawn for three weeks.

Then, each dog was crossed over to a different group and received another

supplement for another four weeks. After yet another three-week layoff, 60

percent of the dogs were switched to a third supplement. The remaining 40

percent went back to whatever they were given during the first four weeks.

At

the end, mobility scores were calculated to determine the average for each

of

the five groups.

The results were impressively in favor of Ester-C therapy. Seventy-eight

percent of the dogs on 2,000mg of Ester-C experienced improved mobility

within four or five days. The average improvement score was 1.52. About 60

percent of the improved dogs relapsed when Ester-C was discontinued, but the

group that returned to Ester-C in the third phase then regained mobility.

Handlers reported no negative side effects.

On the low (850mg) dose of Ester-C, only 52 percent of the dogs improved,

with an average score of 0.45. Obviously, size of dose was important. Of

dogs

receiving 2,000mg of Ester-C with extra minerals, 62 percent improved by an

average score of 0.87. Why Ester-C without extra minerals had better results

remains unknown.

Ordinary Vitamin C improved 44 percent of the dogs, with a score of 0.67. As

expected, no noticeable change occurred among dogs on the placebo.

Not even the most dyed-in-the-wool skeptic can ignore the results of such a

double-blind crossover study. But the success of Vitamin C in treating CHD

can still be questioned, or even denied, because X-rays show that the joints

remain loose or arthritis remains. Even Brown confirms that X-rays taken for

his study reveal defective skeletal structures even after the Ester-C

treatment.

This is a quote from that thread - Aziah, I think - sorry if it is not!!

As I said previously I have had an entire litter that had HD. The dam of that litter was in whelp when I found out her entire previous litter was severely affected (and their sire wasn’t) I absolutely pumped the Vit C into that bitch and her resulting puppies and none of them have a score over the breed average. The bitch was later hip scored and had a huge score. The only other thing I changed was the first litter was partial BARF feed and the second litter was 95% dry fed.

[furballs]

In my experience as a pedigree puppy buyer, I thought I was paying a lot of money for a good dog.......wrong

Buying from a quality Breeder - you won't know until you have a pup with a problem (maybe you will be one of the lucky ones)

Don't believe anything they say about themselves. Also being members of dog clubs doesn't make them good breeders.