German Shepherd National Show

[Black Bronson]

Black Bronson is this your opinion or just an excuse of why your dog/s don't conform to the current breed standard anatomically

I like the German SV system Pockets and believe it should be implemented in Australia to preserve the breed's overall integrity. Conformation is only one part of the breed standard which makes up well bred GSD, but in our Australian system, conformation is the "be all and end all" which shouldn't be the case given that the GSD is a "working dog". To make matters worse, too many GSD's are bred on the basis of conformation show potential with little regard to the other aspects of the breed standard which are equally important, probably more so if working a GSD is the desire.

The problem with rating a GSD's correctness by conformation only, results in a misconseption of what a champion dog really is. One would expect that aquiring a puppy from a champion parentage litter should provide a dog capable of a working role which is not often the case. Too often the champions based primarily on conformation have major temperament faults and genetic weaknesses that under SV rule would never qualify to be shown or bred, where dogs of this nature in our system slip through the net and are reproduced. With our system, there is no way of controlling the overall correctness of the GSD and maintaining the breeds integrity which is my point. Any dogs regarded as champions, should first and foremost have the genetics to pass a workablity test, and if not, should not be titled as a champion dog. A working dog lacking the genetics to work regardless of conformation excellence, is a poor example of the breed that should never be reproduced IMO.

[ish]

Please - no comments on the structure of the breed or show/working line debates in this thread

Black Bronson, why don't you start you own thread?

[freundhund]

Hi Black Bronson

It is very obvious from your comments with regards to German Shepherds in Australia that you have not been very involved or around with the breed for very long. In fact from your lack of knowledge as to what has happened in the past you are making quite incorrect facts. If you had bothered to check with GSD people who have been around they would have explained that at various times the GSDCA and various state clubs have tried to assist those who are interested in the "WORKING" only aspect of the GSD.

Black Bronson it takes two people to tango and the workingline people are not interested in truely getting Schutzhund into Australia, in the 1980's the GSDCA president Mr Louie Donald looked at using the BH test as part of the Breed Survey system in Australia. It was felt at that time that if the BH title could be impliemented with the ANKCA that would be a start in the right directions as well as a title that would be recognised back in Germany by the SV. In discussions at that time, the working people were not interested in just having a BH title they wanted the whole box and dice Schutzhund or nothing. The working people were told that if we got the BH title thru we could then work on encouraging more GSD owners to look positively on Schutzhund. The working people said "NO" to the GSDCA.

At the same time a number of people in various states had spoken to members of parliament, who had agreed that they could see nothing wrong with a BH, great, and that these people all agreed that if we could start the ball rolling by getting the obedience and tracking parts of the Schutzhund titles recognised by the ANKCA that we would most probably be able to show that a good level of control had been achieved by these dogs and there would be a good chance to get the manwork gradually approved by parliament!!! Most of this information was taken back at that time to the three (3) breed clubs interested in Schutzhund at that time being the GSDCA, the Rottweiler Club and the Dobermann Clubs thru to the "workingline" members. Again the working line people wanted Schutzhund and they wanted it now!!!!!! Unfortunately, the workingline people at that time could not and would not accept that it could take possibly up to ten (10) years to achieve Schutzhund in Australia if we took the route proposed were there was the largest chance of success and we could more successfully lobby parlimentarians. So again Schutzhund went by the wayside.

Today, the workingling people still need the co-operation of the showline people, however, the showline people IMHO feel that they are sick and tired of the attacks upon them and their dogs to the extent that they will no-longer show the support that they had given in the 1980's to the "workingline" people. In fact I and I know others who have done a lot to try and encourage the acceptance of Schutzhund feel fed up to the back teeth over the "workingline" peoples attitude.

Black Bronson please note I have been a member of a couple of Schutzhund Clubs, however I am not currently a member due to the attitude of the working line people towards my showline dogs. I have previously done Schutzhund with 2 GSD's. I don't come from a pure show background.

[Black Bronson]

Hi Black Bronson

It is very obvious from your comments with regards to German Shepherds in Australia that you have not been very involved or around with the breed for very long. In fact from your lack of knowledge as to what has happened in the past you are making quite incorrect facts. If you had bothered to check with GSD people who have been around they would have explained that at various times the GSDCA and various state clubs have tried to assist those who are interested in the "WORKING" only aspect of the GSD.

Black Bronson it takes two people to tango and the workingline people are not interested in truely getting Schutzhund into Australia, in the 1980's the GSDCA president Mr Louie Donald looked at using the BH test as part of the Breed Survey system in Australia. It was felt at that time that if the BH title could be impliemented with the ANKCA that would be a start in the right directions as well as a title that would be recognised back in Germany by the SV. In discussions at that time, the working people were not interested in just having a BH title they wanted the whole box and dice Schutzhund or nothing. The working people were told that if we got the BH title thru we could then work on encouraging more GSD owners to look positively on Schutzhund. The working people said "NO" to the GSDCA.

At the same time a number of people in various states had spoken to members of parliament, who had agreed that they could see nothing wrong with a BH, great, and that these people all agreed that if we could start the ball rolling by getting the obedience and tracking parts of the Schutzhund titles recognised by the ANKCA that we would most probably be able to show that a good level of control had been achieved by these dogs and there would be a good chance to get the manwork gradually approved by parliament!!! Most of this information was taken back at that time to the three (3) breed clubs interested in Schutzhund at that time being the GSDCA, the Rottweiler Club and the Dobermann Clubs thru to the "workingline" members. Again the working line people wanted Schutzhund and they wanted it now!!!!!! Unfortunately, the workingline people at that time could not and would not accept that it could take possibly up to ten (10) years to achieve Schutzhund in Australia if we took the route proposed were there was the largest chance of success and we could more successfully lobby parlimentarians. So again Schutzhund went by the wayside.

Today, the workingling people still need the co-operation of the showline people, however, the showline people IMHO feel that they are sick and tired of the attacks upon them and their dogs to the extent that they will no-longer show the support that they had given in the 1980's to the "workingline" people. In fact I and I know others who have done a lot to try and encourage the acceptance of Schutzhund feel fed up to the back teeth over the "workingline" peoples attitude.

Black Bronson please note I have been a member of a couple of Schutzhund Clubs, however I am not currently a member due to the attitude of the working line people towards my showline dogs. I have previously done Schutzhund with 2 GSD's. I don't come from a pure show background.

Freundhund, that may be the case what you have told us, but the breed quality is suffering on the basis of policy and politics which is wrong and something we need to rise above. Unless we are working and testing dogs genetic working ability, the working traits of the GSD will disappear and result in destruction of the breed whilst everything is based on conformation results only as it is now. How many stud bookings has Kwint got since his Nationals win???. Kwint may not be the best sire for every bitch, but they will use him as they all did with Cayos. It's not about working lines versus showlines, it's about the GSD as a whole, and I really don't see too much genetic fore thought going into many showline breedings other than who won the last show. That's understandable in a system where working ability isn't part of the criteria because without working experienced breeders, they wouldn't know what they are looking for to maintain overall breed integrity.

Until champion dogs are rated upon overall correctness and not soley upon conformation, things can can only go backwards from here with only limited breed improvements if any. For the record, the show folk don't like my black dog either , the division between the lines I agree isn't helpful.

Edited May 6, 2010 by Black Bronson

[Miss Danni]

BlackBronson, what is your point regarding Kwint? Kwint has been well used in Australia and have produced some lovely animals, including the Gold Medal bitch.

Kwint holds a Schutzhund title as he was Kkl1 in Germany. So according to your own argument, Kwint is the dog that every bitch owner should use, as he has the required conformation AND working titles

[Black Bronson]

BlackBronson, what is your point regarding Kwint? Kwint has been well used in Australia and have produced some lovely animals, including the Gold Medal bitch.

Kwint holds a Schutzhund title as he was Kkl1 in Germany. So according to your own argument, Kwint is the dog that every bitch owner should use, as he has the required conformation AND working titles

Kwint is a good dog, but it depends upon the traits that Kwint brings to the table and the traits of the bitch concerned. The breeding error is to assume that Kwint will produce great progeny with any bitch which is not necessarily the case. There are some other good dogs like Jimmy, Fellow, Ray, Karlos, Vimo, Scooby Doo etc that could produce better progeny than Kwint depending on the bitch, bearing in mind the bitch line has 50% input into the result.

My point is the mentality that Kwint must be the best dog for my bitch because he won the show happens too often and very obviously in the past. They bashed Cayos, Gigolo etc in the same fashion and not always for the right reasons. As an example, Fellow for instance can produce very stable temperaments which could be the best sire for a bitch having a slight fearful trait, where the wrong sire could amplify a fearful trait and produce fear biters which are plentiful in showline progeny. Other aspects in relation to the breed standard need to be taken into account other than conformation to maintain breed quality. Conformation IMO shouldn't be taken above all else in breeding programs to the extent that it happens. Conformation only doesn't provide a good example of the breed unless the other required traits are present also.

Edited May 7, 2010 by Black Bronson