Should I Put This Puppy Down?

[Guest BDA]

Scales of Justice,

don't presume to interpret my message re sending the puppy back to the breeder. If the breeder is a responsible one he or she should take the puppy back, make sure it is treated, replace it to the buyer and once the ill pup is well find it a good home. It's the policy we have here....and, I suggest, for a number of breeders on this forum....so not out of sight out of mind but rather responsible breeder behaviour. Indeed this is important if the breeder wants to be absolutely sure what exactly is wrong and whether it is something in their lines of which they should be concerned.....and if they want to preserve their reputation as breeders....

[griff]

Not a matter of out of sight out of mind at All !! A matter of Ethics !

I second BDA' s reply .

[Steve]

Stop Cool off calm down This pup will be O.K. It just needs to be fed properly for a while . Cordelia had some great photos of a pup that had a problem that looked even worse than this one does and it came back O.K..

I picked up a pup once from another breeder [ sight unsen] and when it arrived it had legs just like this It took about 6 weeks and all was well. What you're seeing is fairly common in large breed pups that have been fed too much phosphorous and not enough calcium . Supplimenting him with calcium isnt the answer but lots of raw chicken wings and a multi vitamin for children ,some aloe vera and some apple cider vinegar and all will be well.

For a vet to say put it to sleep because it will probably suffer with arthritis because of this condition is a bit out there and many vets dont understand the growth issues related to diet well enough to be able to make these kind of suggestions.

No reason why there should be any secondary problems as long as you feed a well balanced diet from now on.

[Guest BDA]

Large breed dog? Isn't it a cattle dog? Hardly a large breed - I personally would still like to know what I was dealing with rather than just hoping time and diet will fix it.

[Roxanne]

Yes, that is right. The pup is a cattle dog and weighs 12 kgs at 12 weeks. I have another cattle dog that is 16 months and weighs 20 kgs.

However,I am feeling much more positive that he can be helped with his condition with appropriate advice .

Fingers and toes.

[griff]

Well then Roxanne , Fingers and Toes it will be , all the best

[Clyde]

Here's Hogan, 2 weeks of rest and restricted exercise, Eukanuba puppy food and legs splinted and he was off to his new home. New owner advises absolutely no problems so far

[Steve]

Ive seen a whole litter of boxers like this because the breeder fed the little guys on weetbix and human mince 4 times a day and nothing else It only took a week and all was well after a new diet. 12 kg at 12 weeks might not be a giant breed pup but it sure is a pretty big pup by my standards.

[Wundahoo]

Hi Roxanne,

I've just had a look at this thread, and I think that from the appearance of your pup in the photos, he will be quite OK, providing that you get him onto the right diet.

I think that his problem is not the same as the one that Dru has posted. The Rotti pup looks as though he had a Varus problem, caused by a discrepency in the growth rate between the ligaments (tendons) and the bones of his forelegs. That condition corrects almost as quickly as it happens. It can occur virtually overnight in a rapidly growing, active young dog, and can disappear almost as quickly.

Your puppy looks to me as though it may have either a form of hypertrophic osteodystrophy or nutrional secondary hyperparathyroidism.

Both can be corrected with a balanced diet that promotes slow growth rather than rapid growth.

I think that the quickest way to get him back onto an even keel would be to feed him Eukanuba Growth orEukanuba Large Breed Puppy for a few weeks. If you think that he is beginning to stabilise, then switch him to a raw diet if you feel that it is appropriate or suited to you and the dog. At this stage, one of the most important things is that his diet is consistant in its nutrients and that it is balanced. Particularly important is the ration of protein to calcium/phosphorus.

I definitley WOULD NOT begin to supplement him with calcium.... probably the owrst thing that you could do for him at this point.

Did your Vet take xrays or a blood sample ???? Those would of most use in deciding what was going on, apart form simply looking at the pup !!

Good luck with him, but I dont think that you will be having to make any terrible decisions for him in the near future, if you can get him onto an appropriate diet.

[persephone]

To all the others who said that the puppy should be shipped back to the breeder ie. out of sight out of mind, problem will go away - what about the poor puppy? The puppy is a living being and deserves a chance and should not be treated like a commodity.

I third the other reply..It was NOT "out of sight, out of mind". at all..instead it was that I saw it as the breeders's responsibility.( and mis read the post, & thought he would take it back)

Roxanne...I hope you keep us posted,and I hope that in a couple of weeks he's bouncing!!

[Guest BDA]

Your puppy looks to me as though it may have either a form of hypertrophic osteodystrophy

Wundahoo,

I mentioned HOD many posts ago and suggested x-rays as the best way of determining same. With the correct diet and limited exercise it is the way to go for that condition! Let's hope Roxanne gets some answers and a good outcome for her and the furry one.

Steve,

12 kilos at 12 weeks does seem very large for an ACD but I questioned your comment as it appeared you were implying this was a large breed not a large specimen.

[holly]

From the diet he was given before, it does sound like a calcium defieciency and he looks down in the pasterns. Of course I would check to make sure that is the problem with the vet.

Holly has some great before and after photos of a pup with a similar problem.

Roxanne

I am really sorry to hear that your experience so far has been less than ideal.

When I looked at your puppies feet, I could not see that much terribly wrong, a full photo of your puppy standing, a side one would be of great help. To me the puppy seems to have large growth plates, but then I am use to see the knuckles on our fast growing GSD puppies.

You are lucky you have caught the puppies diet deficiencies early and he can have a turn around, so not all is lost.

A balanced diet for growing puppies needs a phospherous to calcium ratio 1:2

A snip from http://www.gsdhelpline.com/feeding.htm

Calcium and Phosphorus

Calcium and phosphorus are the major minerals involved in the structure of the bones and teeth. Both the levels, as well as the proportions of calcium and phosphorus (or the ratio of calcium to phosphorus) within the diet are of great importance. This ratio is particularly critical in growing puppies, and here particularly in large and giant breeds. A deficiency, or an excess of these minerals, as well as an imbalance can cause severe skeletal deformities. Supplementing a diet balanced for growth with bone meal and the like must therefore be strictly avoided. Fresh muscle meat is sometimes seen as a healthy and natural diet for a dog, however, muscle tissue is very low in calcium and relatively high in phosphorus and does not meet a dog's calcium requirement when fed alone.

Recommended Ca:P Ratio Adult 0.5:1 - 2:1

Growth 1.0:1 - 1.5:1

Gestation/Lactation 0.80:1 - 1.5:1

The requirements for calcium and phosphorus, in particular the required calcium to phosphorus ratio, change as puppies grow older and become adult. All dog foods supported by WALTHAM ensure that you feed the appropriate calcium to phosphorus ratio during all your dog's different lifestages.

EDIT TO ADD: this appears to be an advert for Waltham's hence why they do not recommend adding anything to else to the diet, as they are saying that Walthams is a "complete" meal But there is also lots of useful information on that page I found this morning.

About a diet high in phospherous, low in calcium:

With our breed, they can pariticipate in a breed improvement scheme, called a Breed Survey, the dog/bitch must be measured as well as other things. If someone had a animal that is slightly too big, it is not uncommon for those to feed their dogs red meat and pasta only leading up to survey. This will have the dogs feet splay and pasterns drop, which will get them through, trick sure but some will do what they have to do to get classified.

Are you fully conversant with the BARF diet and what your special puppies special needs are?

Seeing as thou the puppy had a rough start, unless you know BARF inside out, I feed my adults BARF but always feed my growing puppies commercial, such as Advance, with bones and some tabel vegetables as well, my advice would be to go to a premium large breed growth biscuit.

I can not recommend Advance Large Breed Growth highly enough and to this add brisket bones etc to his diet, chicken is fine too, but I get better results on brisket.

Bones are a natural form of calcium and can be expelled from the body easier than man made forms. Your vet is right on the calcium bit, btw, your puppy has a lack of calcium stores at the moment. To this I would also add 1000mg of Ester C. The Ester C will help your puppy to absorb the calcium better. Ester C has an enzyme compound that works much better than normal Vit C, it is dearer, about $20 a bottle, but your puppy will not require this treatment long term.

Here is the puppy Lia was talking about, she was on Eukanabu only and her owner had sent me a photo of her to show me how she was going, it was with this photo, that I saw the ligament problems in her feet and recommended the above diet, it did work. I do not have a standing photo as well as she got older but do have one of her sitting, you can see the difference in her feet in the two.

Edited January 10, 2005 by holly

[holly]

and the same puppy at 5 months of age

[Guest magnum]

I would taking the puppy to Robert Zammit he really can work wonders. It sound to be that the breeder has done the wrong thing with feeding the whole litter, I would be sending the breeder the cost in vet bills etc.

Take you puppy to a very good vet such as Robert & change the diet & I would say your puppy will live a happy & full life....

But do something about the breeder ....

[Clyde]

The Rotti pup looks as though he had a Varus problem, caused by a discrepency in the growth rate between the ligaments (tendons) and the bones of his forelegs.

Hi Wundahoo, it was 'bilat carpal hyperflexion syndrome' is that the same thing as the 'varus' thingo? Had a couple with simply calcium deficiency, the treatment was the same though ie. premium puppy food, splints and rest.

I can't find much online re. varus...is this caused by growing too quickly?

What causes hypertrophic osteodystrophy? All I can find is a suggestion of too much calcium and vacc. reaction?

[Roxanne]

Thank you everyone for all your kind advice.

I was unable to get Arnie, puppy, to the vet today. However I have majorly restricted his movement, as I mentioned earlier, I thought he NEEDED excerise

and was doing my upmost to give it to him. This evening, I can see an improvement already, as he not using his little legs so much.

Holly, I was able to get the "Advance Growth" and he has had some for dinner .

The first pics of the German Shepherd pup is just how Arnie looks on the side. So very pleasing to see that the pup has recovered so well

I really feel my Arnie will be okay now we are heading down the right track with treating his condition.

I will let you know what the second vet says after I visit him.

Cheers and very best wishes to you all,

Roxanne

[Wundahoo]

Hi Dru,

Varus is a descriptive term used for the appearance that your Rotti pup had. I think that I replied to your original post about him, and said that I thought that it was probably carpal hyperflexion which was giving him that weird look. That apparent outward bend in the forelegs is commonly referred to as Varus deformity. The opposite is termed Valgus, where the feet turn outwards, the pup walks on the inside of the front feet, the pasterns are really flat and the foreleg bones appear to have a bow in them that is opposite to the direction of your pup's.

Varus can be real or apparent, and in the case of carpal hyperflexion it is not a real deformity, but is an apparent one, caused by the tension of the ligaments that are out of synch with the growth rate of the long bones.

Sorry if this is not very clear, but yes, your pup certainly did fit the carpal hyperextension syndrome, and was about as classic as you could get.

Because it happens so quickly, people often think that their dog has broken its legs or something, or that the apparent deformity is of boney origin, when in fact it is all caused by the soft tissues not growing quickly enough (or the long bones growing too quickly, which ever way you want to look at it!!).

In the case of your pup and that of Roxanne's often the quickest and best results are achieved by reduced exercise and most importantly a balanced and consistant diet. To be perfectly frank, those that I have had experience with did not really take any benefit from splinting. I think that it just made US feel better. I had some involvement with a whole litter of Great Dane pups who all developed carpal hyperextension syndrome. Some were splinted, and others were not.... there were 10 of them !!! There didnt seem to be any greater improvement in those which were splinted than in the pups which simply had their exercise reduced.

My personal opinion is that splinting may in fact slow the recovery as it doesnt allow the muscles to take the full weight of the leg, and muscle development is also very important in this syndrome. It is something that will probably improve most rapidly with corrected diet and reduced exercise.

As to hypertrophic osteodystrophy.... there are lots of opinions on that one. Some say that there is a genetic component to it, others say that it is due to a diet rich in nutrients, particularly protein, others say that it can often occur in young dogs after a bout of gastro.

Nutritional secondary hyperparathyroidism is one that can be caused by high protein diet which has also been supplemented with calcium to try to balance things up a bit !! This problem can also mess up a dog's kidneys as well as other vital organs if the problem is not corrected quickly enough.

All in all, unless an owner is pretty well clued up on barf, the best thing that they can do for a dog with any of these problems is to get them onto a good quality balanced commercial dry puppy food specifically designed for slow growth, at least until the dog's metabolism begins to stabilise. If an owner wants to change to barf, then they need to be pretty sure of what they are doing, as dogs who get any of these syndromes have difficulty in juggling the various components of a barf diet to make the best of what is given to them. They need some pretty consistant and carefully regulated nutritional support to be able to grow into normal adults. Once that has happened, they should be able to cope with almost any diet, and most of them do spectacularly well on barf once they have stopped growing.

They are dogs whose metabolism has been so messed about by an incorrect diet that they seem, as puppies, to have quite a sensitive balance.

[Cordelia]

I've had numerous pups develop this condition (like Hogan).

I have always found it to be in pups (obviously rescues) who come in malnourished with heavy worm burden.

Worm pup, premium dry diet and chook necks and once the worms are gone...... that can be the result, often after a week in care.

A sudden increase in weight/growth due to sudden decent feeds and their tendons/muscles etc are just not capable of carrying around some extra weight (even though it isn't 'excess' weight).

Every pup I have had with this condition has corrected within 2wks without splinting and although i had the pups confined, it was in a large pen where they were still able to walk about easily.

and 12kg at 12wks for an ACD pup seems huge!

Just curious....... is this dog from a Registered Breeder? Does he have pedigree papers etc???

[Clyde]

Thanks so much Wundahoo

[Roxanne]

Cordelia,

The pup is from a very well known breeder of 20 years experience who resides in Sydney. His dogs have been very successful in show ring and have been purchased by many other ACD breeders overseas and here in Australia. So his dog's bloodlines are all over the place.

This is the ONLY reason I purchased this pup sight unseen. Other puppies were availabe from other states in Australia. However, I thought this breeder was my best bet.

When I told him about what my vet recommended,PTS, for the pup, he immediately suggested providing me with another pup. He did not question for one moment the vet's diagnosis. Which is highly suspect. One would have thought he would have been shocked and suggested a second opinion about pup.

Also, he advertise that his dog's are canine council registered. I did not purchase the papers with my pup as I only required a pet dog.