What Is A Pure Bred?

[RufusTheDoofus]

Obviously we are all here for pure bred WELL BRED dogs. However, what constitues a pure bred? Is it simply 8 or 58 or 158 generations of careful x breeding? Is there more to it?

All of our current breeds came from somewhere. The White Shep has re-emerged in recent years (one of the original GSDs was white) but when can it be considered a distinct breed?

For example, I can take a black and tan GSD and breed it with a White GSD and still have a GSD, can't I?

wikipedia - the source of all that is good and pure in this world - says:

"Purebred dog refers to a dog of a modern dog breed that closely resembles other dogs of the same breed, with ancestry documented in a stud book and registered with one of the major dog registries. Documentation (so that the dog is known to be descended from specific ancestors) and registration distinguish modern breeds from dog types or landraces of dog (sometimes called natural breeds or ancient breeds) that arose under human influence over a long period of time to do a specific type of work."

If this is true then aren't lab x poodles now a breed? and couldn't it be envisaged that other x bred dogs would eventually be considered pure breds?

I know there is the argument that we have enough breeds but is there anything otherwise?

I am by NO MEANS promoting x breds, I have always owned pure breds or pound puppies, I am just wondering where the line is drawn and how firmly? Is there anything that I can read to sure up in my mind what it all means?

[puglvr]

I think you answered your own question.

"Purebred dog refers to a dog of a modern dog breed that closely resembles other dogs of the same breed, with ancestry documented in a stud book and registered with one of the major dog registries.

A white GSD cannot be "on the main register" and therefore will not have papers issued for any progeny so therefore it cannot fill this criteria. Yes technically you will still have a GSD but it cannot be classified purebred.

[~Shepherd~]

I think you answered your own question.

"Purebred dog refers to a dog of a modern dog breed that closely resembles other dogs of the same breed, with ancestry documented in a stud book and registered with one of the major dog registries.

A white GSD cannot be "on the main register" and therefore will not have papers issued for any progeny so therefore it cannot fill this criteria. Yes technically you will still have a GSD but it cannot be classified purebred.

And this is what happens to a depressed White, feeling like a social outcast

Edited April 18, 2010 by Chewbacca

[mumof3]

Gee rufus, are you bashing that wasp nest with a stick or what??

I have a friend involved in trying to establish the Bull Arab breed as a registered breed in Australia at the moment.

They have had to have alot of genetic testing done to show that the animals are basically related (distantly, but from the same seedstock).

There is a process to register a new breed, and I think the ANKC might administrate it (not sure).

Many of our existing pure breeds are developed from other breeds, and I imagine that, yes, this could occur again in the future.

Or maybe someone could breed like miniature labs or something - this has been done with cattle by isolating some gene that made them smaller but otherwise much the same.

[RufusTheDoofus]

Gee rufus, are you bashing that wasp nest with a stick or what??

I have a friend involved in trying to establish the Bull Arab breed as a registered breed in Australia at the moment.

They have had to have alot of genetic testing done to show that the animals are basically related (distantly, but from the same seedstock).

There is a process to register a new breed, and I think the ANKC might administrate it (not sure).

Many of our existing pure breeds are developed from other breeds, and I imagine that, yes, this could occur again in the future.

Or maybe someone could breed like miniature labs or something - this has been done with cattle by isolating some gene that made them smaller but otherwise much the same.

Ahh yes the mini-retriever, suited to retrieving tiny tiny objects

I'm not trying to cause controversy, I am just trying to get things straight in my mind because the more I experience in life the more differing views I encounter and perhaps engender some discussion.

This seedstock is what exactly? In the case of bull arabs I means

[Gayle.]

You need to read Jed's story of the Lithuanian Goat Catching Retriever. One of the best pieces of literature I've ever seen on explaining how a type of dog becomes a purebred (and no, it's not always by cross breeding), and a Dogzonline legendary story.

Not sure if it's still up though.

[mumof3]

Gee rufus, are you bashing that wasp nest with a stick or what??

I have a friend involved in trying to establish the Bull Arab breed as a registered breed in Australia at the moment.

They have had to have alot of genetic testing done to show that the animals are basically related (distantly, but from the same seedstock).

There is a process to register a new breed, and I think the ANKC might administrate it (not sure).

Many of our existing pure breeds are developed from other breeds, and I imagine that, yes, this could occur again in the future.

Or maybe someone could breed like miniature labs or something - this has been done with cattle by isolating some gene that made them smaller but otherwise much the same.

Ahh yes the mini-retriever, suited to retrieving tiny tiny objects

I'm not trying to cause controversy, I am just trying to get things straight in my mind because the more I experience in life the more differing views I encounter and perhaps engender some discussion.

This seedstock is what exactly? In the case of bull arabs I means

Here is a link:

http://www.bullarab.com.au/

I enjoy debate too and I think it is an intelligent pursuit which fosters increased understanding.

[RufusTheDoofus]

Would love to read it Gayle, and thanks mumof3

[FionaC]

Would love to read it Gayle, and thanks mumof3

the thread is still there but the story itself has been removed by the OP

thread - http://www.dolforums.com.au/index.php?show...p;hl=Lithuanian

Edited April 18, 2010 by FionaC

[Gayle.]

It's not there, I think Jed removed it. Maybe ask her to put it back up so you can read it, it's absolutely fantastic.

[GeckoTree]

I think the wiki article is pretty spot on, the Eurasia breed developed in the 60's would be a good example of a most modern incarnation of a X to a breed.

[Jed]

A purebred dog is the progeny of parents who are the same breed as each other.

This rule applies to any and all purebred animals.

[Jed]

I've done a new post, because the development of a new breed is different.

If those who are developing a new breed wish it to be eventually registered with the ANKC as a breed, they must adhere to the ANKC protocol. This is on the ANKC website.

Different registering bodies have different requirements, and the registration of purebreds upgraded would depend on the protocol of the registering body.

[Souff]

"Purebred dog refers to a dog of a modern dog breed that closely resembles other dogs of the same breed......."

If this is true then aren't lab x poodles now a breed?

Answer to your question is in the bolded type.

The LxP cross is made up of 2 different breeds and many of these dogs do not resemble each other because one inherits the features of L and another dog inherits the features of P. The differences don't stop with the progeny of the mixed mating, throwbacks occur. The differences between the two different breeds are too great to ever get to the stage where the majority of dogs bred this way "resemble other dogs of the same breed" ...... without culling about 50% of the pups along the way.

Glad you got ole Jed to dust off the recipe for the Lithuanian Goat Catching Retriever again though it is one of his better works!

Souff

[becks]

I think you answered your own question.

"Purebred dog refers to a dog of a modern dog breed that closely resembles other dogs of the same breed, with ancestry documented in a stud book and registered with one of the major dog registries.

A white GSD cannot be "on the main register" and therefore will not have papers issued for any progeny so therefore it cannot fill this criteria. Yes technically you will still have a GSD but it cannot be classified purebred.

Depends on which country you live in! In the UK you could still have a fully papered GSD from such a mating, if both parents have endorsement free papers.

[IngeK]

just for my own understanding, what is the difference between a purebred and a pedigree? Is the pedigree a dog with official papers where the parents are officialy tested etc?

[Jed]

A purebred dog is one whose parents are both the same breed.

A registered purebred dog is one who is the progeny of two dogs of the same breed, whose ancestry is recorded in an appropriate stud book. Thus, there is not only proof of his pure breeding, but a reliable record of his parents, g/parents, gg/parents, so his breeding can be traced back, if you wish, to the inception of the breed, whenever that was.

The pekinese is a very old and purebreed, and if you could find the pedigrees, you could, in theory track his ancestry back to the first century AD (but only if your Chinese was good!)

Edited April 19, 2010 by Jed

[Jed]

Rufus the Doofus, just for you, I am bringing back the tale of the Lithuanian Goat Catching Retriever. Although it is a fable, a lot of breeds were developed in just this manner, over a lot of years. I hope you enjoy!!

THE LITHUANIAN GOAT CATCHING RETRIEVER

I have noticed during discussions, when breeders mention The Breed Standard some non breeders have no idea what they are talking about. And why should they?

People who haven't been coming to DOL very long can't understand why there is a standard, or why it should be the "blueprint" for the dogs.

Doesn't make much sense.

Each standard was developed at the time a number of dogs became a type, and the originators wanted them to be a breed. And if there was a blueprint, others who followed could breed to that blueprint, because that was the key to the dogs being able to do the job they were originally designed for.

I thought if I told you a story about the evolution of an imaginary breed, and the standard that was written for the breed, it might be easier to understand what a standard is, and why it is important.

So, sit down, take a seat, hang on……

Once upon a time long long ago, there was a small rural community in ? oh, Lithuania. The soil was sparse, rainfall was poor, crops did not thrive, and because the farmers were poor, they could not afford to buy any animals, and there was no Maccas, so they were often hungry!! However, in the region was a native goat. It was noticed that once this goat was caught, it was domesticated quite quickly, it didn't eat much, and it could be milked 365 days of the year, each goat giving about 10 litres daily.

The goats, although plentiful, were exceedingly difficult to catch. They could run like the clappers, they could jump 2 metres from a standstill, and they could swim like fish. Additionally, they could bite your finger off, and kick the eye out of a needle.

In a spirit of co-operation, the farmers got together, and held goat catching days. Unfortunately, because of the attributes of the goats, the haul was very small for the effort, and usually a couple of farmers were gored, kicked or bitten - or all three.

Because the goats could swim, if they were herded towards the shores of the large lake, they tended to keep running, and to swim once they were out of their depth. The waters were icy, and many men caught pneumonia in their quest for the goats, in addition to being gored, kicked or bitten!.

One day, Vlad brought along his hound. The goats were worried about the hound, which could run as fast as they could, and in the confusion, a couple were caught. However, the hound was greyhound size, and although he could run as fast as they could, they could run underneath him (little suckers were only 30 cm high after all).

Next time Vlad's hound went on the hunt, and Igor took his dog too. His dog was smaller than Vlad's, so when the goats did a 360, they ran into the dog, which promptly bit them, and by the end of the day, he was grimly hanging onto them while they snapped and kicked at him. So more goats were caught.

Obviously, something smaller than Vlads dog was needed.

medium sized dog

Next time, Ivan took his dog, which was also medium size, and could run very fast, so he easily caught them.. However once a goat kicked him, he legged it for home as fast as he could go, howling. Then they knew they needed a

bold, courageous dog

with a fair turn of speed

well laid back shoulder, back of medium length, good hindquarter angulation with strong gaskins

(because this exactly how Ivan's and Igor’s dogs were)

This went on for quite a while - and the farmers had a pack of medium sized dogs which were courageous and fast, and the goat catching was becoming more successful.

However, the goats continued to jump in the lake. None of the dogs would go into the lake, and if the farmers threw them in, they swam for shore as fast as they could, and spent the rest of the day sitting around shivering, or legged it for home.

Then Dmitri brought his dog - which could swim like the clappers and had a very short curly coat. This dog took to the water like a duck, frightening the goats back to shore where they could more easily be caught. They noticed that the dogs with a short curly coat like Dmitri's were all willing to enter the water, and further, when they exited the water, they shook themselves and were dry.

They deduced that the dogs with the short curly coats were willing to enter the lake because their coats kept them dry, and stopped them freezing to death.

short curly coat with water repelling properties

Of course, they mated the dogs together (as you would) and came up with a medium sized, built for some speed dog which loved the water and had a short curly water repelling coat.

If you were lucky enough to get one of these dogs from Mikhail's litter, you thought you were the ducks guts, and in truth, your dog had caught a couple more goats than your neighbours, so you were very proud of your dog!!

One of the bitches from Mikhail's litter was not only prepared to swim after the goats, she could swim like the clappers, and she damn well caught one. Unfortunately, it bit her, so she let it go. There's your first breed fault!!

Everyone wanted to know why this was the only dog which had ever caught a goat in the water. They noticed that she had webbed feet. Of the litter of 8, 2 had webbed feet, although neither parent did. There was some talk in the town of the mother having mated with a duck, and witchcraft, but in the end, they decided the webbed feet were too good to let go.

feet shall be broad, with arched toes and a web of skin between the toes

But the lack of boldness continued to be a problem. They noticed that Dick The Drongo's dog which they always laughed at, because he couldn't even get close enough to the goats, was a demon if he ever got his teeth on one. He would push it to the ground and hold it - without biting it.

So they actually caught more goats, because the curly coated ones would drive them back to shore, where Dick the Drongo's dog would be waiting with gaping jaws. The farmers all examined the dog, and discovered that he seemed to have a lot of skin on both sides of his face, and his jaw structure was slightly different.

great jaw strength, wide bottom jaw combined with "soft" mouth

Now, they were too poor to keep TWO dogs - one to chase, and one to hold - so they thought they would see if they could combine the two. So they mated him to the faster and leaner of the web footed, curly coated dogs, and kept the curly coated pups which could hold a goat down and keep it down until the farmers arrived with ropes. And bred them together.

They had pretty well cornered the goat market, but then they discovered that some dogs had problems with their ears after being in the lake. The ones that had the problems were the ones with erect, pricked ears. The dogs which didn't have problems had their ears folded down. They probably couldn't hear quite as well as the ones with erect ears, who could hear the goats when they were 20k away. The ones with the folded ears could hear them at 10k, which was close enough.

a fold in the ear, just covering the ear canal

Things were going pretty well, but there was one problem. Most of the medium sized, web footed, curly coated dogs had to live outside, because they were pretty sharp in temperament, and the farmers had to watch they didn't take chunks out of the kids. It was pretty hard outside in winter, and some dogs died of the cold. So they picked the dogs with the nicest natures and mated them together.

gentle, trustworthy with children, devoted to the family, never treacherous

After a couple of hundred years, the farmers of that area had a good sort of a goat catching dog, good with the kids, healthy, and damn good at what he did. The farmers used to have competitions to see which dog could catch the most goats in a day -- and of course, they all wanted the services of any dog which was better than the rest.

They now had a fair bit of milk, and enough meat, so life wasn't as desperate. They thought they needed a hobby. Of course, on goat catching expeditions, there was a lot of joking and joshing and comparison of the looks of the dogs..

So they decided to have a contest to see whose dog was the nicest looking.

They asked the mayor of the neighbouring village to decide, and knowing nothing about dogs, he immediately agreed. And then he stumped them by asking -

"What should these dogs look like? How will I pick the best looking one if I do not know how they are to look?"

So, the farmers scratched their heads for a while, and talked amongst themselves, and then wrote on a piece of paper, and gave it to the mayor

medium sized dog

bold, courageous dog

well laid back shoulder

back of medium length

good hindquarter angulation

strong gaskins

short curly coat with water repelling properties

feet shall be broad, but catlike with arched toes, with a web of skin between the toes

great jaw strength, wide bottom jaw combined with "soft" mouth

a fold in the ear, just covering the ear canal

gentle

trustworthy with children

devoted to the family

never treacherous

The farmers had a great day - a lot of lies were told, a lot of potato wine was drunk, a few were sick, and they decided it was the very best day they had ever had.

They decided to have another day like it. And they decided to begin a club for such festivities - and they would call it The Lithuanian Goat Catching Retriever Club.

And over time, more items were added to their breed standard - they noticed that the dogs with the round eyes were better at spotting the goats

bold, round eye

They also found that the white curly coats were very hard to clean (specially before Plush Puppy was invented), and the brown and black dogs could catch goats just as well as the white ones, so

black or brown colour preferred. White shall not be a disqualifying colour

And so it went. About 50 years after that, all the dogs looked pretty much the same, and behaved pretty much the same. When they bred them, the pups looked like the parents. Over time they had developed a full breed standard, they registered the breed with the FCI, and people who wanted to breed the dogs knew exactly what they had to aim for.

Remember too, that the originators of the dogs had the actual dogs in front of them - so you need to know what the breed looks like to make any sense of the standard.

Even though you have read the standard here, you don't know what the dogs look like, do you? So, you need to match the dog with the standard.

Edited to add - It is well known that I keep, breed and show these dogs. I love the shows, and particularly the drinking of potato wine which follows. Non believers say "but there are no goats, why keep to the standard?"

I don't care about keeping them for the purposes they were bred for - and it is important to breed to the standard, because if we did not breed to the standard, we would, over time, lose the uniqueness of the Lithuanian Goat Catching Retriever. There is not another dog in the world like him.

I love them for their bold, courageous temperament -they are steadfast and true, they are kind to little kids, I know they would never bite them. I love the way they look, with their glossy curly coats, which never need grooming or clipping. I love their round eyes, and their cute little folded down ears. I love the way they love to swim, and come out nearly dry. And most of all, I just adore their personalities.

For me, they have many other attributes, so forget the damn goats. However, as a breeder, I know where the original breeders were coming from, I know how hard they worked to produce "their" breed, which they have handed on to the following generations, and to me. I cannot breach their trust, and I believe in the integrity of this breed, through the ages.

No matter that he never sees a goat, what he does not see, he does not miss. And he would rather be lying by my feet in front of the fire in winter than swimming around some freezing lake after some smelly goat!!

Edited April 19, 2010 by Jed

[mackiemad]

jed- LOVE the story, captures the devlopment beautifully! and very well written

now, i'm off to partake in the drinking of some potato wine!

[Jed]

Too late, all gone, Lituanian Goat Catching Retriever Specialty last weekend!! Not a drop left in the country