Corrective Behaviour

[corvus]

Erny, I think that the difference in names is purely a matter of marketing. Harsh training tools and methods aren't popular anymore. People don't want to do mean things to their animals. So give it a name that sounds like it's not harsh. :nahnah: It's not some great big conspiracy.

It's like condom packets that come with pictures of sexy male torsos on them, or "feminine hygiene products". Why not have pictures of actual condoms on condom packets? Why not call them "menstrual products"? Marketing is a beautifully complex and elegant thing. It's also full of lies.

[JulesP]

Micky Moo do you know about NILIF? Have a google if you don't. The fact that you are still having to correct the dog at all would suggest that you need to take other action to get this dog under control.

If one of my dog bite me, they would get drop kicked out the door! And then a good week of boot camp. Currently you are giving a correction, getting the dog to sit and then giving it treats. Dog bites, gets a bit of a yank but then gets yummies. I prefer to be really hard for a sort time then so-so hard for a longer period of time. Biting you is just not on. Can forgive biting the groomer, it isn't a fun experience for most dogs.

[Herr Rottweiler]

Erny, I think that the difference in names is purely a matter of marketing. Harsh training tools and methods aren't popular anymore. People don't want to do mean things to their animals. So give it a name that sounds like it's not harsh. It's not some great big conspiracy.

Ignorance seems to be popular ;)

Harsh methods...ok I can understand peoples resistance. As for the tools, their just tools! It's 100% up to the handler to determine in what manner they're used in OR how they're educated to use them.

As we have discussed to death in this thread AND many others, we have all seen out share of substandard training methods in all styles, however I feel that modern trends in dog training are a leading cause in euthanasia because people are learning to give up on the dog because punishment is frowned on, where as a quick trip to the vet and a new puppy will make it all better.

Who does enjoy doing mean things to their dogs? I dont like it when Police pull me up for speeding and slap a fine on me but I cant say it was mean! The intent is to punish the behaviour. If I get out of the car and attack the Police officer and he Pepper sprays me, I may not like the outcome but it was my behaviour that caused the escalation in the punisher being used.

If we're talking about abuse of the tools? Well that's just the grey area we all dig around in to find support. Everything is open to abuse.

[MrsD]

P.S. I just wanted to know if you (Dog forum) felt that the Choke chain (when used correctly) is a cruel way of training. .

No, I don't think that if it's used correctly it is a "cruel" way of training your dog, if it was used incorrectly then yes it could be cruel. I call it a check chain because used correctly that exactly what it does - checks the dog.

Having said that I don't use one on my dogs (I have with past dogs) because for what *I* want & for *my* dogs when I'm teaching, using positive training works better ;) .

Edited April 22, 2010 by MrsD

[Aidan3]

Dog bites, gets a bit of a yank but then gets yummies.

I can't see anything wrong with that, but I agree that a NILIF approach might sort a few broader issues out. Upon reviewing the OP's most recent post I would like to see much faster results, actually I would like to see almost immediate cessation of nipping. There could be a timing issue.

MM, have a look at controlled tug games. Pup needs to learn how to play appropriately.

[Prydenjoy]

Who have you heard that from, Jeanne? I don't remember reading it hear, not as a specific label for the check chain ;) .

No one here, was brought up in a meeting I was at, one of the ladies said she calls them "training collars" now because thats what they are, since then I've heard it used a few times. No one in the class had a martingale or prong collar, just check chains but they are being referred to as "training collar".

[JulesP]

Dog bites, gets a bit of a yank but then gets yummies.

I can't see anything wrong with that, but I agree that a NILIF approach might sort a few broader issues out. Upon reviewing the OP's most recent post I would like to see much faster results, actually I would like to see almost immediate cessation of nipping. There could be a timing issue.

MM, have a look at controlled tug games. Pup needs to learn how to play appropriately.

What is wrong with it? Well a smart dog might keep nipping because it knows a treat/attention will be coming.

[corvus]

Erny, I think that the difference in names is purely a matter of marketing. Harsh training tools and methods aren't popular anymore. People don't want to do mean things to their animals. So give it a name that sounds like it's not harsh. It's not some great big conspiracy.

Ignorance seems to be popular ;)

Harsh methods...ok I can understand peoples resistance. As for the tools, their just tools! It's 100% up to the handler to determine in what manner they're used in OR how they're educated to use them.

If we're talking about abuse of the tools? Well that's just the grey area we all dig around in to find support. Everything is open to abuse.

I think you completely missed the point I was making, HR! It's not about trends, or abuse, or calling corrections harsh, or ignorance, or anything else political. It's not politically motivated at all. We just live in a more empathetic age than 30 odd years ago and people want to buy things that make them feel like they are being nice to dogs. So new training tools don't get harsh-sounding names or they wouldn't sell. Just like if you whack "eco friendly" on a packet of chemically bleached recycled toilet paper it will sell. It has little to do with whether it is actually environmentally friendly or not.

[Erny]

Who have you heard that from, Jeanne? I don't remember reading it hear, not as a specific label for the check chain ;) .

No one here, was brought up in a meeting I was at, one of the ladies said she calls them "training collars" now because thats what they are, since then I've heard it used a few times. No one in the class had a martingale or prong collar, just check chains but they are being referred to as "training collar".

Yes - a check chain IS a training collar. But it's not a type specific name, if you know what I mean. If there were 3 check chains and a flat collar on a table and I asked you to "grab a training collar from the table" you would probably know what I meant (assuming you have some trainer knowledge). But if there were 3 training collars on the table all of a different type, you wouldn't know which one I meant for you to pick up. If the group who ran the meeting are getting into the habit of referring to "training collar" to specifically mean "check chain" (as opposed to any other form of training collar) then IMO they are wrong and it will lead to confusion. If you're a part of this group (as you went to their meeting?) it wouldn't hurt to have them specify what they really mean when they say "training collar" so that you may clarify WHICH type of training collar they're referring to. But if the whole group had check chains, and assuming the context was correct, then their reference to "training collar" and what sort they meant may well have been pretty obvious.

Edited April 22, 2010 by Erny

[Aidan]

What is wrong with it? Well a smart dog might keep nipping because it knows a treat/attention will be coming.

Possibly, if the correction was completely meaningless but MM has reported an observed decrease in the nipping behaviour so we know that this is not happening. Behaviourists concern themselves with observable, measurable behaviours so you are quite right - it is a possibility - but it would be seen as an increase in nipping.

I reinforce calm responses amidst aggressive responses regularly, with no corrections at all, and no dog that I have trained has ever increased their aggressive responses or even stayed at the same level.

[Prydenjoy]

If there were 3 check chains and a flat collar on a table and I asked you to "grab a training collar from the table" you would probably know what I meant

I might know what you meant, but I'd probably grab the flat collar

For me a training collar is a flat collar, because that is what I train with - No need for anything else

[Erny]

If there were 3 check chains and a flat collar on a table and I asked you to "grab a training collar from the table" you would probably know what I meant

I might know what you meant, but I'd probably grab the flat collar

For me a training collar is a flat collar, because that is what I train with - No need for anything else

Yes - perhaps I asked the wrong person? I would gather that a trainer who works with a variety of training tools and dogs would understand.