Corrective Behaviour

[MonElite]

I am honestly surprised there would be many people that would know what a prong was if you just mentioned them in conversation.

In Australia. Not in Europe and not in America.

[Aidan]

Come on now!! You can hang a dog off the ground with a flat collar!! Should we call them chokers too?

The only issue with the name was that people had suggested to the OP that perhaps if she didn't refer to them as a "choker" she would feel better about it. I suppose that is probably true but there are genuine and credible reasons to use aversion that don't rely on having to deny the fact that the collar at some points must produce an uncomfortable choking sensation.

[Cosmolo]

Uncomfortable sensation- yes, completely agree. But choking? How do you define choking sensation?

[Kavik]

I have seen many dogs beign walked on flat collars dragging their owners around and choking themselves too, don't see your point on that one.

[Aidan]

A choking sensation occurs when something is tightened around your neck (or stuck in your windpipe), however briefly. The fact that it can happen with virtually any type of collar is irrelevant.

Physiologically we find any sort of sensation that threatens biological function uncomfortable and have evolved a nervous system that causes us to immediately react to and/or avoid them.

Does anyone think that I am arguing that they should be called "choke chains"? I would be disappointed if that were the case.

[poodlefan]

Returning to the OP's post for a moment all I can advise is this:

* REGARDLESS of the training method used, if you think you're going to regret it or it makes you uncomfortable having done it before, don't do it. That applies just as much to how you allow trainers to train your dog as it does to what happens at home.

* When you have doubts about how to deal with a particular issue, seek experienced help. If what's going on when you get it doesn't make you comfortable, refer to point 1 above.

We all feel differently about what we may or may feel comforatable doing with our dogs.

Edited April 21, 2010 by poodlefan

[sandgrubber]

Personally, I call them a dog garrote. But only because I think a prong collar gives clearer feedback to the dog. Cruelty is a frame of mind. You can be cruel with most any training device. Sensitive people are only cruel by accident, out of ignorance. You're not likely to do that. And many dogs come fine, despite a little 'true' cruelty. Unfortunately, lots of people don't give a hoot about their dog's welfare. Doesn't sound like you're part of that problem.

Oh, I see. Just call it something that doesn't make you feel so bad. Suddenly, a lot of things make sense.

I was having a laugh about that the other day with a friend, it's gone from a choke or strangle collar, to a check chain to a correction collar, when people start feeling bad about this name I'd like to know what they'll change it to next

Not intended to make the OP feel bad, at the end of the day the device is still the same, you'll either feel bad about it or not, changing the name wont change your feelings

[SkySoaringMagpie]

Come on now!! You can hang a dog off the ground with a flat collar!! Should we call them chokers too?

A flat buckle collar doesn't tighten, and even a flat martingale generally spreads the pressure over a wider area. While I have seen plenty of flat collars used abusively, if we are talking about the risk inherent in the tool, the risk is, IMO, higher with a chain collar than a flat collar.

Like Aidan I'm not saying I go around calling them Tools of Death , I've shown dogs on chains collars before. I just don't think it pays to bullshit oneself about why a tool works - be it a halti or a chain or whatever.

[Erny]

Come on now!! You can hang a dog off the ground with a flat collar!! Should we call them chokers too?

A flat buckle collar doesn't tighten, and even a flat martingale generally spreads the pressure over a wider area. While I have seen plenty of flat collars used abusively, if we are talking about the risk inherent in the tool, the risk is, IMO, higher with a chain collar than a flat collar.

Like Aidan I'm not saying I go around calling them Tools of Death , I've shown dogs on chains collars before. I just don't think it pays to bullshit oneself about why a tool works - be it a halti or a chain or whatever.

Who's "bulls**tting" about anything?

I think the discussions getting down to splitting hairs and going well beyond the necessary, but the point being that it has been said that "choker" is not an incorrect name because it gives the sensation of choking. Flat collars can give the sensation of choking too (whether they tighten or not) when a dog pulls into them, but we don't call them "chokers". That was the point of it.

I still don't like the name "choker" because it makes people think that's how the tool is supposed to work. ie Dog pulls; chain tightens and chokes the dog; dog eases back. And I'm sure we ALL know that doesn't work.

[SkySoaringMagpie]

Who's "bulls**tting" about anything?

Anyone who who suggests checking a dog on a chain doesn't rely on the dog's reaction to having something rapidly tightened around its neck. Aversives work because they are aversive. There is a place for them, but let's not pretend they're rainbows and kittens.

What do you think of the expression "dog garottes"?

[Erny]

Who's "bulls**tting" about anything?

Anyone who who suggests checking a dog on a chain doesn't rely on the dog's reaction to having something rapidly tightened around its neck.

But that's what I'm not 'getting'. Who is suggesting that?

What do you think of the expression "dog garottes"?

Not even sure what "garottes" are. Have been flat out, so didn't really sink in to that one.

[SkySoaringMagpie]

But that's what I'm not 'getting'. Who is suggesting that?

People are concerned about them being called choker chains and objecting when others say that they are a higher risk tool than a flat collar. They are a higher risk tool.

Not even sure what "garottes" are. Have been flat out, so didn't really sink in to that one.

Wikipedia has the basics. It's a more critical turn of phrase than anything I have said.

Edited to fix my bloody awful quoting!

Edited April 21, 2010 by SkySoaringMagpie

[corvus]

Let me try to be diplomatic...

The sensation of choking is in that "panic" category along with the sensation of falling, and when you were little, thinking you knew your mum was just in the next aisle over in BigW and rounding the corner into said aisle to find she is no longer there. I imagine this is why so many puppies flip out the moment they feel pressure on their flat collars (and one of the reasons why I don't usually attach leashes to collars, or use time outs, but that's another topic).

The thing is, you can get habituated to all sorts of outrageous things. If someone tightens a chain collar around your neck often enough and you survive it, it's going to gradually be less scary over time. If the choking sensation is sudden and of short duration, it's not as stressful. Now, if you figure out how you can make the choking stop, it's going to be even less stressful. And we all know there are those dogs that learn to just work through it. Ultimately, if you're a clever dog and you have a good handler, you'll learn how to avoid the choking sensation all together, as the OP's dog has.

[Guest]

I posted the original topic about the "Choke Chain". I would just like to clarify how I use this collar. I NEVER walk my dog on the chain, he has a full body harness which I would never walk without.

He is never left on his own with the chain on, just in case it case he got tangled up on something and he choked himself.

I have a very short rope attached to the chain, so as to quickly grab it within 3 to 5 seconds of the inappropriate behaviour (which entails mouthing and nipping). I say his name, then No in a firm voice, most times he stops the biting straight away, I then tell him to sit and praise the good behaviour. If the nipping continues I will give a quick, sharp tug on the chain in the correct way as well as saying NO. Normally only 1 tug is necessary, but if the behaviour continues I will repeat the process. As soon as he stops, I praise him lavishly, usually making him stay by my side until he seems to be distracted enough not to go back to the inappropriate behaviour again. As I have read by peoples comments, yes there is obviously a very quick feeling of choking (not that I take pleasure in this form of discipline), but no more than is necessary to avert the behaviour, and like I said I always ask him to do something that I know he will do (like sitting) so I can praise him for doing the right thing.

When I first started using the chain, I would be yanking on it at 10 to 15 times a day. I can now go for 2 to 3 days without ever having to "check" him. He has started to learn what the word "No" means, and that playing does not include mouthing and nipping.

Up until using the chain, I had got to my wits ends as nothing I tried seemed to make any difference to his behaviour, but this is working. Again I must stress, it has not changed his personality one iota, he still greets me with full enthusiasm, comes to me when I call and lies on my lap for cuddles, so he does not associate me with pain of any sort.

I hope I have cleared up any confusion.

P.S. I just wanted to know if you (Dog forum) felt that the Choke chain (when used correctly) is a cruel way of training. As I have only ever used one when training a German Shepard, again though I have only trained my dogs from puppies, never trying to correct inappropriate behaviour in a "teenage" dog.

[Erny]

People are concerned about them being called choker chains and objecting when others say that they are a higher risk tool than a flat collar. They are a higher risk tool.

I've expressed the reason for my objection to the chains being called "chokers" and I believe my objection is a valid one.

Observation : Notice that the training collars that are made of metal seem to carry names that are 'harsh', yet training tools made of webbing have 'nice' names. Like some "no-pull harnesses" (why not "pinch harness"?); martingales; head-collars (generic) Gentle Leaders and Halti's (specific); etc. :D

I am not keen on the "higher/lower risk" labels that has been suggested that the different training tools could be pigeon-holed as, simply for the fact that there are so many variables surrounding the handler, the dog and the circumstances. Eg. A fast lunging dog in a head-collar might prove the head-collar to be the "higher risk" tool. A dog that isn't a lunger in a check chain might prove the check chain as a higher risk tool than a head-collar. And so on.

Edited April 21, 2010 by Erny

[Erny]

As I have read by peoples comments, yes there is obviously a very quick feeling of choking ...

MM .... not directing this at you, but just using the opportunity of what you've said here (saves me back-tracking through other posts).

Is it fact that the dog feels a sensation of choking when a correction is given? How do we know that? How do we know that the sensation it perceives is one of discomfort to the nociceptors in the skin and that the sensation goes no further than that because the dog has responded as a result of the check or correction?

I ask you, MM, without meaning to challenge but just wondering if you've picked up what others have said and only presume .... what makes your dog's response indicate that there is an "obviously very quick feeling of choking"?

Where's the fact in what's been said about this, in so far as a quick correction being applied?

P.S. I just wanted to know if you (Dog forum) felt that the Choke chain (when used correctly) is a cruel way of training. As I have only ever used one when training a German Shepard, again though I have only trained my dogs from puppies, never trying to correct inappropriate behaviour in a "teenage" dog.

This thread is meandering now a bit, MM, but I think from the general responses earlier you would know that there are a number of us who do not feel, from the description of what you do, how you do it and why, that you are being cruel. Not everyone will agree, that's a certainty, but if your dog is unharmed and the correction serves to remedy the behaviour (behaviour which is unacceptable and can become dangerous if it escalates) to the point where the corrections are no longer necessary, then in my opinion and obviously in the opinion of others, you are not being cruel.

[Herr Rottweiler]

I am not keen on the "higher/lower risk" labels that has been suggested that the different training tools could be pigeon-holed as, simply for the fact that there are so many variables surrounding the handler, the dog and the circumstances. Eg. A fast lunging dog in a head-collar might prove the head-collar to be the "higher risk" tool. A dog that isn't a lunger in a check chain might prove the check chain as a higher risk tool than a head-collar. And so on.

Yes I agree Erny..

Once again..the thread is playing politics and looking to demonise another training tool. If correction chains were gone today, the next on the hit list would be the Halti tomorow and then the harness after that. I could only imagine that it will get so silly that breathing heavy next to your dog would be scalded as an aversive technique!!

:D

[Erny]

Hi HR :D

I actually don't know why we seek for these things to be so "ordered" for the same reason that I don't comprehend why certain training methodologies are vetoed by some. To me it is about having an open mind and to knowing/understanding that each training item has a different effect on different dogs, correcting in different ways. Just as different methodologies suit some dogs and not others.

Are people looking for some sort of "scale" so they can measure by "chart" which method and/or which training tool they should or shouldn't use?

There are some dogs I've worked with that I would not have its owners working it in a check chain. I could say the same for other dogs and other training/management tools.

This is why I do not get the "ban it/mustn't use it" mentality.

[Skye GSD]

Ultimately, if you're a clever dog and you have a good handler, you'll learn how to avoid the choking sensation all together, as the OP's dog has.

Before using a choke chain/check chain/training chain a handler must know how to use it otherwise it becomes no more effective than a flat collar.

I have recently purchased my 5th GSD (over a span of 40yrs) and the training methods used today by most clubs/trainers are so different with the main thread being food/toys as incentives/rewards.

My beautiful new girl is now 9mths old and is neither food nor toy driven in a class situation (works perfectly for food at home but there is far too much to look at in the real world). I have trained all my other GSD's with the check chain method - gaining CDX with my 2nd girl and competing in obedience with my 3rd and 4th - so do know a bit about training.

Thought I would try the new methods of training with Skye - mainly because a flat collar is all that some clubs will allow - and all to no avail.

Even waiving the most scrumptious treat under her nose would not deter her fom pulling. Favourite tug toy fared no better.

Tried a front-leading harness for daily walks (does work and I was impressed but totally went against my belief that you should be able to control your dog without trussing it!).

I reverted to a check chain 3 days ago and I now have an absolutely changed dog.

Do I choke her with it? - I do not. Try putting a check chain on your own wrist and giving a quick snap with a lead and you will feel the pressure that is asserted and the quick release. It is more the sound that interupts the dog's current thought pattern and brings their attention back to you. I also use plenty of verbal praise.

I believe that the check chain still has it's advantages on tough dogs but am only an advocate when used correctly. If I had a soft, focussed dog that was not like the social butterfly that I have, I would certainly be trying all other methods first.

[corvus]

Is it fact that the dog feels a sensation of choking when a correction is given? How do we know that? How do we know that the sensation it perceives is one of discomfort to the nociceptors in the skin and that the sensation goes no further than that because the dog has responded as a result of the check or correction?

Er... Because it works?

I think that is VERY dangerous ground. There is absolutely no need to demonise check chains and this thread is not, IMO, political or trying to do that. But to suggest that a dog might not even be feeling a sense of being choked due to a correction given with a check chain seems like an unnecessary and dangerous speculation. If we don't know, why would you not err on the side of caution? It's a pretty fair assumption as far as I can tell. I know I'm as sensitive as hell to something even resting gently against my windpipe. I can get used to it, but the initial reaction is to try to relieve the slightest amount of pressure whether I'm choking or not. That is adaptive as far as I can tell. Probably a good idea to be very sensitive about pressure on your windpipe.

It would be nice to have an honest discussion about these tools without the politics. I think many people participating are trying to do exactly that, HR. Personally, I will believe that tight check chains result in a choking sensation until someone offers me a good alternative argument. If you just want a moment of discomfort you can get that easily enough on a flat collar, so why even use a check chain? In fact, you can get it on a full body harness.

Keep it honest. Use a check chain if you want/need, but don't try to make it into something better than it is. Be honest about why it works. It's not that bad. Like I said, animals get used to that kind of thing. First day I wore a tie to school I thought I was going to choke. Once I was a "tight tied" veteran I didn't even rip the tie off the moment I left school grounds anymore.