Corrective Behaviour

[huski]

Yeah, it's kind of like pretending a halti isn't an aversive so you feel better about using one. I'm afraid I know plenty of "positive" trainers who take that line.

Or a Gentle Leader?

Gentle?

Certainly not names descriptive of what they do.

Good point, Staranais.

Yes I've always thought the name Gentle Leader was not a particularly accurate description.

[Staranais]

It's good marketing, though!

[Nekhbet]

yes because 'tight, constrictive facial apparatus' was already taken I suppose

[Prydenjoy]

I always call them check chains, but when I hear people referring to them as "training collars" to avoid the negative association with "check chain" I think it's pushing it too far. It is what it is, no matter what label you put on it it is still the same piece of equipment.

[Nekhbet]

considering how many types of things fall under the term training collar I think that too is abit silly

[Erny]

I always call them check chains, but when I hear people referring to them as "training collars" to avoid the negative association with "check chain" I think it's pushing it too far.

Unless a person is speaking generically, I've never heard a check chain specifically referred to as a "training collar" when in general conversation. I could say to you a check chain is a training collar. Or I could point to a check chain and say it is a training collar, but who would say (eg) "put a training collar on your dog" ? If anyone said that it certainly wouldn't be clear what was specifically intended. A martingale is a training collar. A pinch collar is a training collar.

Who have you heard that from, Jeanne? I don't remember reading it hear, not as a specific label for the check chain .

[SkySoaringMagpie]

I don't use martingales as training collars. I use them as security backstops - ie, they are there to ensure that my dogs (who have heads smaller than their necks) can't back out of a collar if they spot a cat or a rabbit.

[corvus]

Oh, I see. Just call it something that doesn't make you feel so bad. Suddenly, a lot of things make sense.

When I used to visit a different forum, which was predominantly populated by "positive only" (so to speak) sectors, I found that the people there began to get nasty, snipey and/or sarcastic towards people when they'd actually run out of good reasonable argument to support their views.

Sorry, I didn't mean that as a snipe. More of an ironic observation. Just struck me as funny to advise someone to use a different term if the one they are using is making them feel bad about punishment. Isn't that a bit strange when you think about it? :p Calling something by another name because you don't want to be misunderstood is one thing, but because the current term makes you feel bad about using punishment? Punishment is unpleasant by definition. The negative connotations belong IMO. I wouldn't neutralise a word about rewards so I didn't feel so happy about using them. Doesn't mean I won't use punishments, but it does mean I'll always feel bad about it and I like it that way. Motivates me to find ways to avoid using them.

Anyway, call it a check chain if you want. I do, these days. But I grew up calling them chokers and basically that name means nothing to me. No little twinge of concern or negativity, and I've never had an impulse to actually use one to choke a dog. I used one for years without ever actually making the connection between "choker" and what you might use them for. In all honesty, I thought they were called chokers because they looked like the jewelry of the same name.

[Erny]

I don't use martingales as training collars. I use them as security backstops - ie, they are there to ensure that my dogs (who have heads smaller than their necks) can't back out of a collar if they spot a cat or a rabbit.

I've used check chains as "fail safes" with head collars too. But in essence, they are a training collar, as are martingales.

Edited April 20, 2010 by Erny

[Erny]

Sorry, I didn't mean that as a snipe. More of an ironic observation. Just struck me as funny to advise someone to use a different term if the one they are using is making them feel bad about punishment. Isn't that a bit strange when you think about it?

It did seem like one but glad you've clarified it wasn't intentional.

Perhaps you are thinking about it a-about?

Could be the OP was feeling bad for the fact she was using a tool she knew as a "Choke Collar".

I know that saying out loud to people that you've used a "prong collar" can make you feel guilty just by association to the rotten name it was given ie "prong". People who don't know what it is imagine pointy spikes designed to point straight in and pierce and puncture the dog. And you can feel judged, just because of the descriptive name choice.

You've immediately assumed that the person who suggested to think of the "Choke collar" as a "correction chain" (or "check chain" .... can't remember which was suggested) was so the OP could hide behind the name. Whereas the suggestion might have been made to change the OP's perception of it to something less than the 'evil' the word "choke" represents and to relieve herself of guilt where guilt isn't necessary. After all, the chain is not about "choke" at all. I'd feel guilty if people thought I went around "choking" dogs.

Edited April 20, 2010 by Erny

[corvus]

You've immediately assumed that the person who suggested to think of the "Choke collar" as a "correction chain" (or "check chain" .... can't remember which was suggested) was so the OP could hide behind the name.

No... I reread the post in question and it really does sound like the poster is suggesting the OP use a different term that will "sit better" with them. I hardly think the OP is looking for something to hide behind.

Doesn't matter, though. You can always call 'em necklaces. I used to think they were very pretty when I was little. Everyone used them! I also didn't know what a prong looked like until a couple of years ago. I was picturing something completely different, not spikes at all. And that was after several years of watching the arguments raging back and forth about them online! I am honestly surprised there would be many people that would know what a prong was if you just mentioned them in conversation.

[Aidan3]

The OP had admitted feeling guilty about using the tool. The suggestions were that a different name "might sit better with you" and that the collar isn't used to choke the dog.

Of course no-one intends to "strangle" or "asphyxiate" the dog, but the initial (at a minimum) sensation is that of "choking" and this is what the sound becomes paired with. No sense in hiding from that fact, doesn't matter what you want to call the collar.

How about this? If you clearly link the correction with the response that you seek to correct and the dog feels that they can CONTROL the consequence (in this case, avoid it entirely) through their behaviour then there will be very little stress. Any measures that we can take that indicate physiological stress will peak around the time of the correction then return to normal, baseline levels very quickly and remain there even in similar situations in future.

Do you still feel guilty? I hope not.

The other thing you can do to avoid any nasty side-effects is to take the opportunity to teach the dog what you do want (sounds like you can check that box off too), because otherwise punished behaviours do have a nasty habit of turning up again when you least expect them if you neglect this step.

[persephone]

..I just call them chain collars

[Erny]

I am honestly surprised there would be many people that would know what a prong was if you just mentioned them in conversation.

That's just it - they don't. But they conjure up their own image of a collar with savage spikes on mention of the name "prong" collar, before they've even begun to hear what they are really like and how they work. That's my point.

[SkySoaringMagpie]

I don't use martingales as training collars. I use them as security backstops - ie, they are there to ensure that my dogs (who have heads smaller than their necks) can't back out of a collar if they spot a cat or a rabbit.

I've used check chains as "fail safes" with head collars too. But in essence, they are a training collar, as are martingales.

Maybe in your world as a pro trainer martingales are. I notice Blackdog are selling a martingale as a "training collar" now.

However, I first encountered martingales as sighthound fashion and walking wear - big flat fabric martingales like these which I would not describe as a training collar:

http://salukistation.com/silk_martingales.htm (need to scroll down to see the collars)

Edit: I'm not being sarky about the different worlds thing, just trying to point out that terminology is not absolute.

Edited April 20, 2010 by SkySoaringMagpie

[Herr Rottweiler]

Its disgusting what political correctness has done in so many areas... It's really made dancing bears of everyone so they can conform and not offend!

Correction or check chains were called chokers by nimwits who dont know how to use them and just let their dogs gag and choke down the street while they pull them along like sledding Husky's.

Nothing wrong with the name correction or check! Thats what they do.

[Staranais]

He's right, "correction chain" isn't actually that much of a euphemism, since it doesn't hide what the chain is for (correcting the dog).

Now, if they were calling them "happy dog chains", or "good dog chains", or "guidance chains", or "leadership chains", or something obscure like that, well I agree that would be pretty pathetic.

[Aidan]

I'm confused, who said there was anything wrong with calling them a correction or check chain?

The only thing I am opposed to is denying that they cause a choking sensation. Talk about your dancing bears and being PC!

[SkySoaringMagpie]

Its disgusting what political correctness has done in so many areas... It's really made dancing bears of everyone so they can conform and not offend!

Correction or check chains were called chokers by nimwits who dont know how to use them and just let their dogs gag and choke down the street while they pull them along like sledding Husky's.

Nothing wrong with the name correction or check! Thats what they do.

Well, to be fair, they have been used in the past and are still used by a minority of people to hang dogs off the ground to "correct them". Combined with Aidan's point, it's not surprising that people have called them chokers.

I think we need Cosmolo's "high/low risk training tools" discussion idea as a thread.

[Herr Rottweiler]

Come on now!! You can hang a dog off the ground with a flat collar!! Should we call them chokers too?