Corrective Behaviour

[Guest]

I have spoken before about my new addition, Micky (a Lhasa Apso Cross), but will summerise to allow you to know the whole story.

We rescued him from the pound on February the 2nd this year. On getting him home, he was totally flea ridden and had a nasty ear infection. Besides that he was the perfect dog; fully house trained, good with people(no fear, or aggression)seemed to have quite good manners, but needed to be taught alittle more, but as he was, we counted ourselves very lucky. He didn't bark, he could be left on his own (not for very long) without destroying anything, he didn't chew anything and walked well on the lead.

We had him vet checked and sterilised and he seemed to settle down quite nicely. After his stitches healed from his sterilisation were cleared up, we had him professionally groomed. The lady brought him back later that morning statinmg that he had bitten her! She didn't make a fuss, she just felt that he had nbeen hurt by grooming in the past.

After he'd been with us about 3 weeks, it looked like he had settled right in, then the "mouthing" started, he doesn't bite hard, but enough to pinch the skin. He also started attacking our feet as we walked. Both my mother and myself are not too steady on our feet, so this behaviour had to be stopped ASAP.

I tried everything; rewarding good behaviour, treats, timeout, you name it, I tried it. Then while I was shopping one day I found a "Choke chain" and thought "I'll just try it once!" Bear in mind I have had dogs all my life and have trained all of them to have good manners and basic obedience. Granted all the dogs I have ever trained , I have had from a puppy.

Anyway, I put the "Choke chain" on my pooch and waited. I still kept on with rewarding the good behaviour and ignoring the barking, but when he started to get rough and biting I yanked the chain, saying "NO" in a very firm voice, immediately slackened the chain as he stopped biting straight away, he then started to lick my hand and again I praised him as a good boy for not biting. I have been usiung the "choke chain" for about 3 weeks now and his behaviour is improving each day.

As I said, he was from the pound and about 2 year old, so I don't know his history before he came to us, but speaking to him firmly was like having an argument. He just kept on barking and trying to bite feet, hands and knees. That behaviour is slowly subsiding, but only due to the "Choke chain", but I feel awful for using it, the only other dog I ever used a "Choke chain" on was for a German Shepard and that was because it was recommended by the Alsation Obedience Traning that I attended. I've never had reason to use it on any other dog that I have owned, but it seems to be the only thing that works.

Please don't think that I am trying to be cruel or break his spirit, he is still the confident dog that he was when we first got him, but now he knows what part he plays in our "Pack".

Please let me know what you think, or if there is anything other than the "choke chain".

[Erny]

Please don't think that I am trying to be cruel or break his spirit, he is still the confident dog that he was when we first got him, but now he knows what part he plays in our "Pack". Please let me know what you think, or if there is anything other than the "choke chain".

There is nothing wrong with the correct use of a check chain. No one will be able to tell you whether it was the tool of choice for your dog, but the point is it has worked for you and from the sounds of it there have been no negative repercussions of doing so. We can only presume that you know how to use it and that you are able to judge its effectiveness and appropriateness.

If your dog had been permitted its behaviour and if that had escalated, who knows what would have become of the dog.

But if the behaviour continues in spite of what you have done, I'd recommend that you seek the services of a trainer/behaviourist to assist you - that person should have the qualifications/experience to be able to assess what method (correction or otherwise) is necessary and best (for all parties concerned - including the dog) to extinguish the behaviour in the quickest possible time.

As for the grooming experience, I would not recommend that the same method of correction be applied without knowing first why the behaviour was exhibited. If it was through fear, a correction might only serve to increase that fear and make it worse. Without being able to see for ourselves, it is impossible to advise you in this respect. The groomer, assuming she/he is experienced in the job would possibly have an idea, although that doesn't necessarily mean he/she would have the skill level to be able to advise you on the best method for remedy.

If the correction you gave has fixed the behaviour towards you and your family and harmony now rules, don't feel guilty, just move on. A properly applied and well-timed physical correction can be less stressful and more effective (especially but not only time economically speaking) for the dog than days/weeks/months of negative punishments. Not to mention a better outcome for the dog and owners than it would be if the behaviour had been allowed to worsen.

The main thing that bothers me is that you sound quite uncertain and for that reason alone, should you need to remedy problematic behaviours such as what you describe in the future, perhaps getting someone to guide you would be helpful and offer you more assurance.

ETA: Who knows? Perhaps if the dog had received a clear message such as that which you have delivered, he might not have been surrendered by his owners to a pound in the first place. But I caution anyone about using any training aid or restraint without knowing and understanding proper application and use. And that counts for head collars; check chains; PPCollars; E-Collars; and harnesses.

Edited April 17, 2010 by Erny

[corvus]

The way I see it, most of the time you can achieve what you need or want with rewards alone. Most of the time. Every now and then a problem sneaks up on you, or was present before you could train pre-emptively, and it occurs to you that what you really need is to create an inhibition. To me, that is the only time I would use corrections or punishments. I am really rigorous about this. I avoid punishments like the plague and I wholeheartedly believe that there is always fallout from using them. You just don't always know what it is right away. BUT, that's not to say they have no place in training, or that the fallout is not sometimes worth it.

What you decide to do is entirely your call and I for one would never judge you for that. I personally would not hesitate to use a punishment if I felt that it was needed. It's good to feel bad about it because after all, it's aversive by definition and no one should feel good about doing aversive things to their dogs. But that doesn't mean it wasn't the right thing to do.

[conztruct]

From what I can see you've used it appropriately to control a situation that you had tried to control by other means, and you've had to use the choke chain as a last resort.

I don't believe your use of it is cruel. My dogs can be difficult and stubborn at time - I generally use a choke chain on them but very very rarely have to check them.

I think you're doing fine. I can understand the feeling bad bit - as I have felt like an awful bully the few times I've given mine a jerk.....however, you are using it (and it's the way I use it to) to correct behaviour that would otherwise have the dog in trouble (eg biting). I always make sure that if I have used the choke chain to correct a really bad behaviour, once it stops I give my kids plenty of praise so they know I still love them.

[Erny]

It's good to feel bad about it because after all, it's aversive by definition and no one should feel good about doing aversive things to their dogs. But that doesn't mean it wasn't the right thing to do.

I actually wholeheartedly agree with Corvus.

Many people who are of the belief that physical punishments should be avoided at all costs (including if the only other alternative is pts) tend to structure propaganda on those who will use physical punishment when it is called for to suggest that there is some "thrill" gained by the handler administering the punishment. The only "thrill" I ever get is seeing the improved behaviour in the dog and harmony in the relationship between the dog and the owner as a result.

[Nekhbet]

it's not a choke chain since you're not choking the dog with it.

You're providing clear, consistant messages to your dog that his behavior is unacceptable. You shouldnt feel guilty about that at all. Dont be guilted into thinking that using an aversive is a cruel thing, it's not. Dogs correct each other and believe me if one finds something acceptable you should sometimes see what they do to stop the other! If it is not harming him, then stop worrying and concentrate on having a happy, healthy dog.

[persephone]

I have trained many dogs using a chain collar- and not once was it ever used as a 'choke' collar used properly- and at the appropriate level of correction it can be a very effective tool

Glad it has helped.

The biting at the groomers was possibly due to a fear response - none of us saw it happen so I cannot state that this was the case... if it was due to fear, then corrections will not help- they will make it worse.

[Prydenjoy]

As for the grooming, this video will explain step by step how to desensitize a dog to things (specifically nail clipping, but you could apply the same principals to grooming). Simply being at the groomers was probably a very stressful situation for the dog. I got my first Pap at 14 months of age and he was terrified of being groomed, I kept treating him and just putting the brush near him, then one gentle stroke, then a harder stroke, treat treat treat, he learned to love it. I've done the same with Berri and Mango and they both enjoy being groomed.

As long as you aren't abusing the power and your dog has a clear association between what it is doing and the reason it is being checked, you shouldn't feel too bad. You probably wont have to do it for long and the problem will resolve, but remember to keep rewarding the good behavior

Perhaps you could get a tug toy and teach it that the only acceptable thing for it to grab onto it a tug toy? If it is a behavior the dog really enjoys you can harness it and use it to your advantage. Mango loved to pull on my pants, but I taught her she's only allowed to tug on something if I hold it in front of her and tell her to "get it", otherwise she gets left in the room with no one to talk to (ie I walk away).

[Guest]

I should have made myself abit clearer. The one time he bit the groomer had extenuating circumstances. 1) he had never been groomed before, 2) he had only been sterilised for 14 days, 3) he had only been with us for 3 weeks. I have since had him groomed again, and this time I went with him. His groomer is highly experienced and knows what she's doing. She spent alot of time and patience with Micky so she didn't hurt him or frighten him, I was with him the whole time with small pieces of dried chicken to distract, reward and reassure. I did not use the "Check chain" once. I only use it as a last resort and never more than necessary. Like I said, the bad behaviour is getting less and less each day. He seems to be starting to understand what the word "NO" means. I started teaching him to give his paw with treats and praise from (more or less) the week I got him. He would look at me with a dopey look on his face when I'd ask for his paw. But I persevered, and two months later, I asked him for his paw one morning, not expecting anything new and to my utter delight he plopped his furry paw in my palm. I was ecstatic and gave him so many cuddles he was wondering what was happening. So I have a (sort of) time table on how long he takes to learn things. Sometimes though he picks up other things really quickly. He has learnt quickly to walk on my right hand side of the buggy(I use a gopher as a spinal condition stops me walking) and he watches to see which way I am going. He sits and stays at the roads when we go to cross, and this he has learnt just from my taking him "walking" twice a day. Unfortunately, I am a worrier, and though I feel in my gut that I'm doing to right thing, I just need reassurance. Each day his behaviour is getting better, but like everything else in life it would be nice just to flick a switch and it would be done.!!!

Edited April 18, 2010 by Guest

[Erny]

Sounds to me as though you're doing fine, MM. Good on you for giving a dog in need of a home, a home. And obviously a loving one at that :D .

Edited April 18, 2010 by Erny

[Guest]

Thanx heaps for all your feedback. I feel more assured that that I am doing the "right thing" by my pooch and his behaviour.

As of today I have only had to check him 3 times with the chain. He has started to associate the word "NO" with a jerk on the chain (which he dislikes immensely) so after the word no has been said, nine times out of ten he actually pay attention. And it is sooo true all a dog wants is to be loved and to please.

[Herr Rottweiler]

Results is the key! If it works and the outcome is a win win, then what you did was right

[angelsun]

Please don't think that I am trying to be cruel or break his spirit, he is still the confident dog that he was when we first got him, but now he knows what part he plays in our "Pack".

Please let me know what you think, or if there is anything other than the "choke chain".

As mentioned...the use of the term Correction Collar might sit better with you. These reactions are very human and very common. The key as also mentioned is that you did the right amount of correction at the right time. Where corrections become potentially harmful is when they are used incorrectly and with extreme force and repetativeness.

As you say, he is a confident dog. It takes more than a few pops on a correction collar to break a dogs spirit and knowing where he stands in your pack is the most important issue here. Without that 'order' any dog is subject to fail, and when I say fail, it usually means PTS.

When this dog proves he can move past a correction collar, move him to a flat collar. This is a right he must earn by continually behaving and responding to you, the alpha. Unfortunately it's all too common for smaller dogs to attempt to be boss and because they are smaller, for whatever reason, so many feel that the dog can get away with inappropriate behaviours. If this sort of behaviour happened with a Great Dane, it would be hell to pay. A dog is a dog, regardless of the size and they all come with the same number of teeth that can inflict injury. Correcting in this manner is not a bad thing, and like any tool or method, is used only as long as needed before moving forward to another. Training also never stops, but is a lifetime event.

[corvus]

Oh, I see. Just call it something that doesn't make you feel so bad. Suddenly, a lot of things make sense.

[Prydenjoy]

Oh, I see. Just call it something that doesn't make you feel so bad. Suddenly, a lot of things make sense.

I was having a laugh about that the other day with a friend, it's gone from a choke or strangle collar, to a check chain to a correction collar, when people start feeling bad about this name I'd like to know what they'll change it to next

Not intended to make the OP feel bad, at the end of the day the device is still the same, you'll either feel bad about it or not, changing the name wont change your feelings

[Erny]

Oh, I see. Just call it something that doesn't make you feel so bad. Suddenly, a lot of things make sense.

I was having a laugh about that the other day with a friend, it's gone from a choke or strangle collar, to a check chain to a correction collar, when people start feeling bad about this name I'd like to know what they'll change it to next

Not intended to make the OP feel bad, at the end of the day the device is still the same, you'll either feel bad about it or not, changing the name wont change your feelings

When I used to visit a different forum, which was predominantly populated by "positive only" (so to speak) sectors, I found that the people there began to get nasty, snipey and/or sarcastic towards people when they'd actually run out of good reasonable argument to support their views.

Even though these tools are labled "Choker Chains" I call them "Check Chains" or "Correction Chains" as well. And I prefer others to consider them as such also. The reason being is that the problem with the term "Choker Chain" is that consciously or even sub-consciously, it has people thinking that the tool works on the premise of choking. This doesn't lend itself to (especially novice) people remembering that they actually need to develop lead handling techniques to work it properly.

I have said on more than one occasion when working with my clients, when they have referenced the chain as a "choker" ..... "Please don't think of the chain as a Choker - think of it as a check chain, then the sub-conscious of your brain is more likely to help you to remember how it is meant to be applied." I have found labelling in these circumstances does make a beneficial difference to the handler and as a consequence, to the dog.

The other good reason for a change of name is because if a tool has a bad sounding name, before you've even had a chance to explain, discuss and show the benefits it can have, people's minds have already shut down and their ears have closed against them. It doesn't help that there are orgs who also decry just a certain aversive style of tool/s that in fact do have beneficial effects and are sometimes for some dogs in their better interest, welfare speaking to use in training.

Edited April 20, 2010 by Erny

[huski]

I call them check chains because IMO 'choke chain', as Erny said, does not accurately describe what the tool does or how it should be used.

[Herr Rottweiler]

When I used to visit a different forum, which was predominantly populated by "positive only" (so to speak) sectors, I found that the people there began to get nasty, snipey and/or sarcastic towards people when they'd actually run out of good reasonable argument to support their views.

Even though these tools are labled "Choker Chains" I call them "Check Chains" or "Correction Chains" as well. And I prefer others to consider them as such also. The reason being is that the problem with the term "Choker Chain" is that consciously or even sub-consciously, it has people thinking that the tool works on the premise of choking. This doesn't lend itself to (especially novice) people remembering that they actually need to develop lead handling techniques to work it properly.

I have said on more than one occasion when working with my clients, when they have referenced the chain as a "choker" ..... "Please don't think of the chain as a Choker - think of it as a check chain, then the sub-conscious of your brain is more likely to help you to remember how it is meant to be applied." I have found labelling in these circumstances does make a beneficial difference to the handler and as a consequence, to the dog.

The other good reason for a change of name is because if a tool has a bad sounding name, before you've even had a chance to explain, discuss and show the benefits it can have, people's minds have already shut down and their ears have closed against them. It doesn't help that there are orgs who also decry just a certain aversive style of tool/s that in fact do have beneficial effects and are sometimes for some dogs in their better interest, welfare speaking to use in training.

[Staranais]

Oh, I see. Just call it something that doesn't make you feel so bad. Suddenly, a lot of things make sense.

I was having a laugh about that the other day with a friend, it's gone from a choke or strangle collar, to a check chain to a correction collar, when people start feeling bad about this name I'd like to know what they'll change it to next

Not intended to make the OP feel bad, at the end of the day the device is still the same, you'll either feel bad about it or not, changing the name wont change your feelings :p

Yeah, it's kind of like pretending a halti isn't an aversive so you feel better about using one. I'm afraid I know plenty of "positive" trainers who take that line.

Edited April 20, 2010 by Staranais

[Erny]

Yeah, it's kind of like pretending a halti isn't an aversive so you feel better about using one. I'm afraid I know plenty of "positive" trainers who take that line.

Or a Gentle Leader?

Gentle?

Certainly not names descriptive of what they do.

Good point, Staranais.