Are Our Breeds Changing As Our Needs Are Changing?

[Greytmate]

I never promoted oodles (I own a GSD - if you had read my intro thread before jumping down my throat you would have seen that) AND I don't personally believe the marketing, but the general public does. This thread was meant to encourage discuss not incite attacks. Deary me.

What I was really wondering whether people think that oodles are a danger to our purebreds. I am also talking about the future, not today, not tomorrow, but years ahead. Trends and so forth.

I didn't realise I was so unclear in my original post. My apologies.

I brought this up as I was at petstock today and noticed a magazine with a footballer on it. It was promoting his oodle as the perfect pet.

Don't worry, I certainly understood where you were coming from - you weren't promoting the oodles breeds at all, you were simply stating a fact that are purebred becoming obsolete because of the influx of the oodles out there and what is going to happen in the future. Not once did you mention that you were advocating this.

I don't think either of you do understand. Or you would realise how destructive it is to perpetuate the lie that cross-bred dogs are somehow tailored.

It goes to the heart of this issue. Cross-bred dogs are random, purebred dogs are tailored. Yes, purebreed people have a lot of work to do in the marketing department. But until then, how about reading and learning more about how purebreed dogs are different from cross breeds rather than perpetuating lies on this forum. As long as people go on believing that cross-bred dog are tailored or have common traits not found in purebreeds, we have a lot of work to do. If you post inflammatory statements like that here on here, it won't go unnoticed, I promise you that.

[RufusTheDoofus]

Who is perpetuating a myth? These dogs are bred to be companions for people. Whether they grow up to be this is another story, but that is the purpose of their breeding and the marketing. I dont like oodles even though I have friends who own them. I like the individual dogs but would never own them myself. However, from what I have seen they fit the needs of these people (others here have said the same)

It isn't my mind you have to change, I agree that these dogs are a pot luck but they are "tailored" through advertising and positive press. I see less and less positive press for pure breds. In fact most of what I have seen lately has been BSL related. Perhaps pure breed people need to get out there and advertise pure breeds better. I am even thinking of putting up a site where one x bred is listed for what the "breeder" promises and saying why not have this, this or this pure bred instead.

[Greytmate]

Who is perpetuating a myth?

You did in the first post in the thread when you said "There has been a surge of x bred oodles tailored to size and shape - a round dog to fit a hole, no shaving around the edges. " That is a myth, and you didn't even question that.

These dogs are bred to be companions for people. Whether they grow up to be this is another story, but that is the purpose of their breeding and the marketing. I dont like oodles even though I have friends who own them. I like the individual dogs but would never own them myself. However, from what I have seen they fit the needs of these people (others here have said the same)

They are bred for profit first and as companions second.

It isn't my mind you have to change, I agree that these dogs are a pot luck but they are "tailored" through advertising and positive press. I see less and less positive press for pure breds. In fact most of what I have seen lately has been BSL related. Perhaps pure breed people need to get out there and advertise pure breeds better. I am even thinking of putting up a site where one x bred is listed for what the "breeder" promises and saying why not have this, this or this pure bred instead.

Well you seem to now realise that it is only the marketing that is tailored, not the dog, so that is a start.

I would like to see more advertising of purebreds. Putting up a website like you describe is one thing, getting people to visit it is another thing. That would require advertising too. Many people come here when doing a search on dogs breeds, so I think that we need to keep getting the message across here that cross-bred dogs are not what you buy if it is important that the dog is the right fit.

[mumof3]

I think that it would be interesting to think about why many people are choosing the cross breeds over the pure breeds of these dogs and whether it would be possible to set up an ethical breeding program to breed a moderate type, friendly, healthy, low shedding small companion dog from a suitable selection of parent dog breeds.

I also think that this is an interesting proposition. Why could someone not ethically breed F1 crosses? With the appropriate health checks and quality parents?

This is where I am at with this line of thought:

You would have no control over what you were producing. As the F1 cross can be very unpredictable, it would take many (I don't know enough about genetics to know how many) generations before you were producing reliable and predictable traits. What would be the point of embarking upon a long term breeding program to in essence create a new breed, when there are already good breeds available? It's not like you could start ethically selling pups as having "x" characteristics for your first or even first few generations. So while it may be possible to ethically breed cross breds from an animal welfare point of view, and from an minimising heredited problems point of view, it serves no purpose and does not produce a product which can be ethically marketed. In reality the price you pay for a purebred pup, given the testing its parents have had, your ability to look at the lineage and it's temperament traits etc etc, is excellent value.

While we talk about perpetuating myths, I'd like to explode the myth that ALL registered breeders are ethical, and that breeding to "improve the breed" necessarily improves the breed as a pet, as opposed to improving the breed according to the breed standard which may lead to an overexaggeration of some breed characteristics.

[Zhou Xuanyao]

here has been a surge of x bred oodles tailored to size and shape - a round dog to fit a hole, no shaving around the edges. As these x breeds become the norm are our prure bred dogs in danger of becoming obselete?

There are already so many breeds. Those designer dogs do not offer anything new, they are a marketing strategy, dare I say, a fad.

Having said that, there is an argument that a lot of purebred dogs already are obsolete. If their breed traits are no longer being tested for or bred for, then what is the use of the breed ? All dogs have certain things in common, such as loyalty, ect, what sets breeds apart is there individual strengths and character, which needs to be bred for to get a unique dog like the pioneers of the breed intended.

I think there is an unbreakable connection between form and tempermant. I think that with spitz breeds for example, the pointy ears and the carriage of the tail is directly linked to their tempermant. Change the form, and the tempermant will change.

So on that level, I think that maintaining no longer working breeds to a breed standard can to some extent continue that breeds character through many generations of non working dogs which, does differentiate them, I suppose. Then, theoretically, you could use that accurate physical stock and hopefully over a period of time you could come up with a useful dog if you needed it.

Don't know but there is definitely a debate in that one interesting topic, sorry to wonder off on a tangent.

[Guest Tess32]

Are there any breeders who would sell to the following:

"Hi, we are a family of five who just want a pet dog. We don't have lots of money or anything so he'll be fed supermarket brand dog food. He'll get a walk once a week or so, maybe more depending on how busy we are. He'll be kept outside and he's mostly so the kids can play with him. We don't do any training after puppy school."

?

[mumof3]

That family will find a dog somewhere.

Probably cheaply.

Probably from someone who makes them feel good about buying a dog.

They will possibly lie to a purebred breeder if they are determined to get a purebred dog.

Is there a breed which is actually suited to this environment?

Brings top mind another topic which I might start as a seperate thread.

[Guest Tess32]

That family will find a dog somewhere.

Probably cheaply.

Probably from someone who makes them feel good about buying a dog.

They will possibly lie to a purebred breeder if they are determined to get a purebred dog.

Is there a breed which is actually suited to this environment?

Brings top mind another topic which I might start as a seperate thread.

But that's the thing - there are zillions of this type of family. Right or wrongly, if they can't get one off a breeder, they will get it from somewhere, and that's why the oodles sell well.

[Wazzat Xolo]

if the world is going to be oodles in 20 or 50 years, I am buying a cat

Well my breed is totally stuffed if anyone wants to oodleise it

a xoloitzcpoo would be pronounced

show low eats poo!

:D

Edited April 18, 2010 by Wazzat Xolo

[Jed]

AmandaS

I think that it would be interesting to think about why many people are choosing the cross breeds over the pure breeds of these dogs and whether it would be possible to set up an ethical breeding program to breed a moderate type, friendly, healthy, low shedding small companion dog from a suitable selection of parent dog breeds.

I think people buy them because they are readily available, look incredibly cute, and are promoted as pets.

what more could a buyer want?

Since PDE there does seem to be some resistance to purebred dogs.

I often ask owners of these x breds why they bought them, and the answers are interesting. Most who wanted low shedding never heard of bichons, and think poodles are poofy. And they have no idea where to get one.

I asked someone once why they went to a pet shop to buy a pup.

"Where else would you go?"

Registered dogs are unpromoted to the public, and very difficult to source anyhow, so they go with the crosses.

And if someone is happy with a breed or cross, they tend to get another one when they need a new dog. That's natural.

People often get to know and like a breed through knowing one - and there are a lot of oodle doodles out there to get to know.

Additionally, baby oodle doodles are mostly incredibly cute - most look just like teddy bears, with big round eyes and fluffy hair which is very appealing to most people.

I don't have a problem with people wanting an oodledoodle - purebreds are hard to find, and if that is what they want, why not? The only thing I have a problem with is the breeding dogs suffering their whole lives. And I have a very big problem with that.

Edited because I forgot this. I think it would be much better to encourage registered breeders to breed more pups - those who wanted to - and to promote oodledoodle substitutes to the public. We are well along with most breeds with good health, and anything an oodledoodle has, a purebred has too - but people aren't aware.

However, until we get the purebred numbers up to where they were 15 years ago, we can forget it. And I don't believe any decent registered breeder would sell breeding stock for crossbreeding, and without good breeding stock, x bred breeding will never improve. Breeders are so vehement that they will buy any and all adult dogs of their breed advertised on p****** or the local paper to avoid puppy farmers/cross breeders/byb getting their hands on them.

Edited April 18, 2010 by Jed

[AmandaS]

AmandaS

I think that it would be interesting to think about why many people are choosing the cross breeds over the pure breeds of these dogs and whether it would be possible to set up an ethical breeding program to breed a moderate type, friendly, healthy, low shedding small companion dog from a suitable selection of parent dog breeds.

I think people buy them because they are readily available, look incredibly cute, and are promoted as pets.

what more could a buyer want?

Since PDE there does seem to be some resistance to purebred dogs.

I often ask owners of these x breds why they bought them, and the answers are interesting. Most who wanted low shedding never heard of bichons, and think poodles are poofy. And they have no idea where to get one.

I asked someone once why they went to a pet shop to buy a pup.

"Where else would you go?"

Registered dogs are unpromoted to the public, and very difficult to source anyhow, so they go with the crosses.

And if someone is happy with a breed or cross, they tend to get another one when they need a new dog. That's natural.

People often get to know and like a breed through knowing one - and there are a lot of oodle doodles out there to get to know.

Additionally, baby oodle doodles are mostly incredibly cute - most look just like teddy bears, with big round eyes and fluffy hair which is very appealing to most people.

I don't have a problem with people wanting an oodledoodle - purebreds are hard to find, and if that is what they want, why not? The only thing I have a problem with is the breeding dogs suffering their whole lives. And I have a very big problem with that.

Edited because I forgot this. I think it would be much better to encourage registered breeders to breed more pups - those who wanted to - and to promote oodledoodle substitutes to the public. We are well along with most breeds with good health, and anything an oodledoodle has, a purebred has too - but people aren't aware.

However, until we get the purebred numbers up to where they were 15 years ago, we can forget it. And I don't believe any decent registered breeder would sell breeding stock for crossbreeding, and without good breeding stock, x bred breeding will never improve. Breeders are so vehement that they will buy any and all adult dogs of their breed advertised on p****** or the local paper to avoid puppy farmers/cross breeders/byb getting their hands on them.

Jed, I agree with you. I have seen a relative of mine acquire a Maltese Shih Tzu cross and that, from her family's point of view, the dog has been a great success. The reason that they chose this cross breed was not because it appealed to my relative or her husband but because their fifteen year old son really liked his friend's dog who was that combination and that's what he wanted. Yes, their dog took quite a long time to house train (an issue I believe with both parent breeds) and she has an incredible tangly coat but they manage this by keeping it clipped quite short. They're not highly motivated dog owners as far as daily walks and training is concerned but she has been well socialised and is a much loved family member so, from this perspective, I think it's better that they ended up with a toy dog rather than a Miniature Schnauzer which was another breed that they were considering.

Since I quite often take her for walks in the park, I've become aware of the fact that there's lots of other similar little dogs out there. I also work with a couple of women who have this particular cross breed. One of them explained to me that she liked the fact that the dog's muzzle was longer than a Shih Tzu (i.e. less prone to breathing issues) and that at the same time was a bit larger and more robust than a Maltese. I remember that when the Melbourne Herald Sun published the most common breed types by council registrations, Maltese crosses and Shih Tzu crosses were in the top five most common types. I'm only mentioning this because personally I'd like to see the puppy farmers put out of business, I'd like for dogs and cats not to be sold through pet shops and, I'd like to see people be able to acquire the dogs they want through ethical sources.

[Zug Zug]

I have a pound 'oodle' at home and while she is absolutely lovely, and I've had pound poodles before, the reality of grooming a poodle-type coat will ultimately put a lot of people off I think.

I think a lot of people go into the pet shop, buy the nice fluffy puppy and then don't groom it. So while the dog could be cute for the rest of its life, in many cases it ends up looking like a bit of old shag-pile carpet for the rest of its life. And still costs them money etc. to have clipped and still look pretty average most of the time.

Next time they go out to buy a dog, I suspect a reasonable number of these people will want a dog that does not require such regular/professional grooming. I have noticed this starting to happen at our local dog club. I just think oodle coats are more work than most people are willing to put in, so the pendulum might start moving back towards easier coats.

[Jed]

AmandaS

One of them explained to me that she liked the fact that the dog's muzzle was longer than a Shih Tzu (i.e. less prone to breathing issues) and that at the same time was a bit larger and more robust than a Maltese

Someone told me exactly the same thing. I did point out that a good Shih Tzu didn't have breathing issues, but realistically, I guess a lot of the pet quality ones do have minor issues. Someone else told me she loved Maltese, but went for a Malt x Shih Tzu because she didn't want a totally white dog, I could see the rationale there too. The one she has is cream and tan. I think the Shih Tzu x Malt is one of the better crosses. And the robustness is an issue too, I think, although Malts are a lot more robust than people think.

Although I think is people who bought them tried a good quality Malt, or a Shih Tzu, they would be very happy.

It's perceptions, and experience.

It's easy when you know show dogs, and see really nice purebred examples, but we have a lot of "urban myths" - which are partly true (as above, and boxers slobber a lot, blah blah), so people want to avoid that.

And they are more likely to see a x than a purebred, so that is what they want. Totally understandable.

I met someone recently, who has had a variety of dogs over her lifetime. She has got to know my boxers, and is terribly taken with them - "so noble, so humourous, so open and affectionate" and she has decided to get a boxer next. She had seen them but never known one.

But that IS how you choose. You see one of a breed you like, and that's it.

I'd like to see the breeding side improved too.

[BJean]

Are there any breeders who would sell to the following:

"Hi, we are a family of five who just want a pet dog. We don't have lots of money or anything so he'll be fed supermarket brand dog food. He'll get a walk once a week or so, maybe more depending on how busy we are. He'll be kept outside and he's mostly so the kids can play with him. We don't do any training after puppy school."

?

Nup.

Not because of content

but because of the dumbing down

:D

[Adnil444]

I never promoted oodles (I own a GSD - if you had read my intro thread before jumping down my throat you would have seen that) AND I don't personally believe the marketing, but the general public does. This thread was meant to encourage discuss not incite attacks. Deary me.

What I was really wondering whether people think that oodles are a danger to our purebreds. I am also talking about the future, not today, not tomorrow, but years ahead. Trends and so forth.

I didn't realise I was so unclear in my original post. My apologies.

I brought this up as I was at petstock today and noticed a magazine with a footballer on it. It was promoting his oodle as the perfect pet.

Don't worry, I certainly understood where you were coming from - you weren't promoting the oodles breeds at all, you were simply stating a fact that are purebred becoming obsolete because of the influx of the oodles out there and what is going to happen in the future. Not once did you mention that you were advocating this.

I don't think either of you do understand. Or you would realise how destructive it is to perpetuate the lie that cross-bred dogs are somehow tailored.

It goes to the heart of this issue. Cross-bred dogs are random, purebred dogs are tailored. Yes, purebreed people have a lot of work to do in the marketing department. But until then, how about reading and learning more about how purebreed dogs are different from cross breeds rather than perpetuating lies on this forum. As long as people go on believing that cross-bred dog are tailored or have common traits not found in purebreeds, we have a lot of work to do. If you post inflammatory statements like that here on here, it won't go unnoticed, I promise you that. :D

I think you really need to re-read what we have both posted - where, please tell me, where did we advocate and/or promote this. In what way was the statement inflammatory?? All "Rufus" was doing was asking a question - if you can't answer a question without thinking it is an attack, then perhaps you need to rexamine yourself. BTW this question has been raised at many dog behaviourist seminars - what is the role of the purebred dog in modern society, what role do the crossbreeds play etc etc. In what way did we perpetuate the lie - please show us?

[BJean]

In our growing society, our cities are spreading as our country areas dwindle. Suburbia is growing up as much as it is growing out.

yep

There has been a surge of x bred oodles tailored to size and shape - a round dog to fit a hole, no shaving around the edges. As these x breeds become the norm are our prure bred dogs in danger of becoming obselete?

I dont think so. Those who want a dog for a certain look / temperament type will seek what can reliably be predicated to be what they are seeking -

ie a pedigree pure bred.

Who needs a dog thats good at catching rats when you dont live in a farmhouse (or a DHS house)?

It has nothing to do with catching rats :D

That selection criteria produced (& required) other traits;

i think this line of thinking misses the forest for the trees somewhat.

Who needs a dog that is good at herding when all of the animals live in battery conditions?

Pet homes dont seek herding breeds for their comparative advantage to herd

they select them for their other traits

which are a positive by-product of their breed selection criteria process.

Who needs a dog to run down deer. lions, tigers, elephants (whatever hunting dogs run down)?

as above

People will want dogs that are companions and that is all. We will all have the best alarm systems and thus need guard dogs.

They are not mutually independent. There is no contradiction.

Companion dogs need good nerve and that is required from all 'purpose bred' dogs.

I dont know why people forget this and/or do not realise this.

I do realise that I am being facitious in some of what I say and that I exaggerating as well, but who knows what the future brings?

Yep

???

What do you think? Are we going to end up in a world of oodles and not much else 20 years...50 years...100 years from now?

Nup.

Edited April 18, 2010 by lilli

[t-time]

Someone told me exactly the same thing. I did point out that a good Shih Tzu didn't have breathing issues, but realistically, I guess a lot of the pet quality ones do have minor issues. Someone else told me she loved Maltese, but went for a Malt x Shih Tzu because she didn't want a totally white dog, I could see the rationale there too. The one she has is cream and tan. I think the Shih Tzu x Malt is one of the better crosses. And the robustness is an issue too, I think, although Malts are a lot more robust than people think.

Although I think is people who bought them tried a good quality Malt, or a Shih Tzu, they would be very happy.

One of them explained to me that she liked the fact that the dog's muzzle was longer than a Shih Tzu (i.e. less prone to breathing issues) and that at the same time was a bit larger and more robust than a Maltese.

With either of these cases, a Lhasa Apso or a Havanese are perfect purebred alternatives. :D Sure Hav availability is low but no excuses when it comes to Lhasas.

[Shmurps]

Mix breeds are always going to be around, it's how they are bred that's the problem.

Greyhounds for example have a b large gene pool (due to the industry :D ). So I believe that there are no real health issues.

The question I would like to ask is are the gene pools for other breeds shrinking?

Do purebreeds have to be of show standard or just well bred?

I don't know too much about the purebred world but I would like to pass info onto customers, especially new dog owners

how to source a ethical breeder once the breed has been decided?

To be honest I find it a little daunting as there seems to be some unethical purebred breeders as well.

[Crazy Daisy]

Someone told me exactly the same thing. I did point out that a good Shih Tzu didn't have breathing issues, but realistically, I guess a lot of the pet quality ones do have minor issues. Someone else told me she loved Maltese, but went for a Malt x Shih Tzu because she didn't want a totally white dog, I could see the rationale there too. The one she has is cream and tan. I think the Shih Tzu x Malt is one of the better crosses. And the robustness is an issue too, I think, although Malts are a lot more robust than people think.

Although I think is people who bought them tried a good quality Malt, or a Shih Tzu, they would be very happy.

One of them explained to me that she liked the fact that the dog's muzzle was longer than a Shih Tzu (i.e. less prone to breathing issues) and that at the same time was a bit larger and more robust than a Maltese.

With either of these cases, a Lhasa Apso or a Havanese are perfect purebred alternatives. :D Sure Hav availability is low but no excuses when it comes to Lhasas.

I totally agree. A lot of people love my Shih Tzu but don't like her squishy face. I say easy, go and have a look at a Lhasa. They are robust, come in lots of colours, don't shed. The ones I've met have been similar to my Daisy, a big dog in a small package. I don't know much about Hav's so I can't comment on them. But I would much rather tell someone to enquire about either of these purebreds before suggesting a Shih Tzu x or an oodle.

[Crazy Daisy]

Mix breeds are always going to be around, it's how they are bred that's the problem.

Greyhounds for example have a b large gene pool (due to the industry :D ). So I believe that there are no real health issues.

The question I would like to ask is are the gene pools for other breeds shrinking?

Do purebreeds have to be of show standard or just well bred?

I don't know too much about the purebred world but I would like to pass info onto customers, especially new dog owners

how to source a ethical breeder once the breed has been decided?

To be honest I find it a little daunting as there seems to be some unethical purebred breeders as well.

If you have someone that is looking for a dog I would suggest sending them to DOL to have a read and ask questions in the breed threads or go to a local dog show first. It can be overwhelming to know who is a good breeder and who isn't but the best thing I've learned is to do as much research as possible.