Are Our Breeds Changing As Our Needs Are Changing?

[Erny]

There are states that allow things like schutzhund, prongs, hunting etc to happen. Using GOOD examples from there and also educating the public to understand the truth behind these animals is key.

I agree in essence, Nekhbet. Good publicity and education.

It's simple to say, but it takes a lot of work with a lot of effort and costs a fair amount of money (when you take labour into account as well). Point being is are we supposed to advertise, advertise, advertise EVERY little thing we do, and spend time educating and pushing public support etc. etc. etc. from now until eternity, on the basis of "just in case the Government and other orgs decide to lobby against what we do" ???

It would be more fair if the Government stopped being swayed by certain groups to which it seems to have granted 'voice' to the exclusion of all others and started observing the rules of Natural Justice and Procedural Fairness.

What you're suggesting is right, I grant that ...... but it shouldn't be that we have to prove ourselves before we are 'convicted' (so to speak).

The laws MUST change. There MUST be a law written which prescribes that the Government has to observe Natural Justice and Procedural Fairness, whether they be legislating OR regulating.

Hang on to your pink hats.

Edited April 17, 2010 by Erny

[ILK]

As well as job specific roles, such as herding, hunting etc. purebred dogs have characteristics which are specific to their breed. They may not be required for their original role, but their specific characteristics adapt to modern society, so people purchase them for pets, even though they may not have a requirement for the original job.

Temperament, coat type, size, characteristics are predictable in a purebred dog, and many people like that predictability. Personally, I would prefer to know exactly how my pup will grow, and what it will be like as an adult, because I know the characteristics are those I will be happy with. If I buy a cross bred, it may not have characteristics I desire, and "may not meet expectations", which is the major reason for people taking their dogs to the pound.

And if I am going to live with a dog for 10 - 15 years, I want to know that it is a dog I will get on with, which will train predictably, act predictably, and behave predictably, as well as grow the coat I expect.

Cross bred dogs have been heavily promoted via the media for the past 15 or so years, and given that, and programs such as PDE which vilify purebred dogs, the public now purchases cross breds.

Another factor increasing the sales of cross breds is the scarcity of purebred dogs. There are insufficient purebred dogs to meet the market, so some do buy crossbreds.

Well said Jed.................Ooohh I'm a poet & I know it

[Crazy Daisy]

Another factor increasing the sales of cross breds is the scarcity of purebred dogs. There are insufficient purebred dogs to meet the market, so some do buy crossbreds.

I agree with this totally. It is much easier to go to a pet shop and grab a puppy on the spot then it is to research a breed, find a breeder and be prepared to wait for the right puppy to come along.

I know this is not a pet shop debate but I think if you got rid of the easily accessible fluffy x breeds out of pet shops you would probably find there would be much fewer of them around.

[WillowGirl]

As for what the original poster was asking.....I sure hope the oodle thing doesn't take over!!!!!!!!!! How boring!!!!

And I think most of the cross breed fluffy what nots turn out to be ugly looking things, nothing like a well bred, pure bred dog if you ask me. At least you know what you are getting.

P.S. The first couple of replies really threw me! Couldn't understand what ppl were so upset about, lucky for the posters after them or I would have thought I'd lost my marbles.

[Dogsfevr]

I know this is not a pet shop debate but I think if you got rid of the easily accessible fluffy x breeds out of pet shops you would probably find there would be much fewer of them around.

Yep & the fact the RSPCA support DD & oodles.

[RufusTheDoofus]

Another factor increasing the sales of cross breds is the scarcity of purebred dogs. There are insufficient purebred dogs to meet the market, so some do buy crossbreds.

I agree with this totally. It is much easier to go to a pet shop and grab a puppy on the spot then it is to research a breed, find a breeder and be prepared to wait for the right puppy to come along.

I know this is not a pet shop debate but I think if you got rid of the easily accessible fluffy x breeds out of pet shops you would probably find there would be much fewer of them around.

I think pound stats would prove that incorrect to an extent. Friends that have x bred dogs go on and on and on about hybrid vigour (which I dont think exists) but never about shortage.

I do agree that impulse buying is a real problem.

[Jed]

There has been a surge of x bred oodles tailored to size and shape

Sorry, forgot to answer fully. I disagree that oodles are "tailored to size and shape". I believe that the people who are producing them have nfi, nor any care, and are breeding what they have- for the money - and not caring about what they produce, or whether they are suitable. Not tailored at all, simply produced in a random way.

People don't understand the inherent dangers of crossing dogs with obvious differences such as skull shape, tooth placement, coat type etc never mind less obvious with different drives and characteristics.

People who buy the crosses often have problems, but think that is normal.

[Andisa]

There has been a surge of x bred oodles tailored to size and shape

Sorry, forgot to answer fully. I disagree that oodles are "tailored to size and shape". I believe that the people who are producing them have nfi, nor any care, and are breeding what they have- for the money - and not caring about what they produce, or whether they are suitable. Not tailored at all, simply produced in a random way.

People don't understand the inherent dangers of crossing dogs with obvious differences such as skull shape, tooth placement, coat type etc never mind less obvious with different drives and characteristics.

People who buy the crosses often have problems, but think that is normal.

today I groomed a xbred oodle - have been doing this dog for 6 yrs, since she was a pup. For 6 years I talked about this dog being a cross breed with her owners and for 6 years I have told them that there is not such breed as their XXoodle.

Today they told me about how well bred she is and her parents are from champion lines...today I explained again about where their pup came from and about the likely living conditions the parents lived in....

Today he said that she is becoming lame and showing signs of ageing...I reminded him that 6 yrs is not old - if she is lame it could be a number of things - simple or something serious starting. I reminded him that since his pup was bought from a puppy farm the chances of the parents being of any quality is pretty slim and even more slim of the chances that either parent had been tested for anything.

Today I reminded him of the "lucky dip" he did on the day when he bought a dog from a puppy farm. I told him that his dog is one of the nicer oodles I have been grooming all these years - many people have not been so lucky. While his dog has a wonderful temperament and until now has been pretty sound many are not.

AND today he told me again about how lucky they have been because his breeder has bought such lovely dogs.....

What hope is there when people after all this time still don't get it....they believe all the crap they are told - even after the puppy farm story on TV (he saw it) they don't think it is so bad and that their dog never came from a place like that..then tells me that his breeder sells pups all the time to pet shops.....

What hope is there?

[mumof3]

This is an interesting thread, and I thank the OP for starting it. I thought it was clear from the start that the OP was trying to start an intellectual debate among peers - not promote oodles.

I agree with the many good points that have been raised.

RE the politics which move towards restriciting dog movement - we see this in the farming sector, too. Powerful and vocal minority groups cause policy changes that are based upon votes, not science. This has been very damaging to primary producers. The voices of these minority groups also turns urban opinion against primary produces, painting them as in the large, environmental vandals. Advocacy groups for primary industries such as Agforce and MLA have instigated public education programmes to try to combat the misinformation and negative sentiment being bandied about. These programmes have to be funded by the farming community. So perhaps, if it feels under threat by politics, or by puppy farms, the purebred community will have to consider funding its own public education programme - which is very expensive.

RE the oodles. I believe that there is powerful marketing out there for the oodles. The breeders are savvy sales people and willingly tell you, oh, no this labradoodle is ideal for an asthmatic as it won't shed..... After some research when considering buying a dog for our family, I found that these claims are not reliably true because of the nature of genetics. Crossing a lab with a poodle is not like mixing blue and yellow. You're not going to get green. At least not reliably. The idea of combining the positive traits of two nice breeds is very appealing but it doesn't always work. You could just as easily get all the negative traits of the two breeds. Again, education education education.

Another point - the freebie back yard bred dog. I see these as a seperate issue to the oodles. While oodles are bred in puppy farms by opportunistic liars, a wonderful array of muts and mongrels are bred in back yards across Australia for a whole heap of reasons, and for no reason. These are often given away for free. Sometimes they are so far departed from any breed, they are not just a something cross they are just a dog. These are a steady source of pets for many people who are often pressed into taking a pup from a friend. More concerted efforts to ensure unregistered dogs are desexed should help limit the number of these dogs around. Many are wonderful and loved pets, some are not so wonderul or so loved and many are pts.

The RSPCA. I by no means agree with everything the RSPCA does, but in a debate of what threatens the purebred dog community, the RSPCA must be discussed. The RSPCA put out a booklet called the smart puppy buyers guide, which I understand many people here dislike. I happen to feel that on the balance of things it is a positive. I've read the booklet and it is available on their website if you want to check it out. The booklet counters puppy mills by suggesting puppy buyers insist on seeing the parents, the rest of the litter and where the puppiers were raised. This is a good suggestion. It also points out the potential hereditary problems with pure bred dogs and suggests that buyers go to a registered breeder and check that the breeder has had their breeding stock cleared of such hereditary problems. This is also a good suggestion. It naturally pushes adoption from a shelter, which is a natural thing for the RSPCA to do and it would be good if more poor dogs found good homes.

Lastly, the supply problem. I'm waiting for a pup, but I think it is really going to be worth the wait and worth the money. Dangerously, people breed unregistered pure bred dogs which have not been cleared of hereditary problems. These pups cost nearly the same amount as a purebred pup from a registered breeder at times. I'd suggest breeders advertise the price of their pups on their DOL adds or their websites. As a consumer considering purebred registered v purebred unreg v mut from pound v byb v puupymill, one of the difficulties I had about purebred registered dogs was not knowing how much they would cost. It was a little intimidating ringing up a few breeders when I had no idea if they were going to say $500 or $5000 - I didn't want to seem like an idiot. The other problem I had was feeling like I was at a job interview when talking to breeders - trying to prove my worth as an owner. I understand the good reasons that breeders do this, but it may have the effect of some people just going elsewhere to get their puppy without the wait, without the grilling and at a slightly cheaper price.

[greytpets]

I agree with the op. I think in years to come our pets will be mostly companion animals & mostly small breeds (like everyone here I hope pure breeds). Already large breeds in the city & surrounds are getting less & less. It is a trend I hate but I can see it happening.

[RufusTheDoofus]

Some brilliant posts, thanks!!

Mumof3 - I like being questioned by breeders because it tells me they care.

I will have to check out the RSPCA guide before I can judge it.

[Wazzat Xolo]

Some brilliant posts, thanks!!

Mumof3 - I like being questioned by breeders because it tells me they care.

I will have to check out the RSPCA guide before I can judge it.

Rufus yes exactly being questiones is good but being interrogated can be a bit daunting, my breeder had a 52 question paper I had to fill in and it was all done very amicably, I have narrowed my puppy q down to 50 questions, lol

Thanks for the thread I am enjoying the posts.

[mumof3]

I certainly understand why breeders do ask so many questions. I'm sure I would too if I were a breeder. But it can be daunting. I have felt like I was jumping through hoops (in some cases), and what I am trying to convey is that this may impact people's decision on wether to buy a purebred registered dog. Guaranteed if you buy from a puppymill the sales person will be smooth as anything and leave you feeling great about your purchase and that you are a perfect home for a pet. It is the difference between a business that cares about their dogs and one who is there for the money, but from the consumer's point of view all they may see is a purebred registered breeder giving them the third degree v's old mate with the adorable oodle who is all smiles.... Not sure how this could be fixed.

[Nevafollo]

In our growing society, our cities are spreading as our country areas dwindle. Suburbia is growing up as much as it is growing out.

There has been a surge of x bred oodles tailored to size and shape - a round dog to fit a hole, no shaving around the edges. As these x breeds become the norm are our prure bred dogs in danger of becoming obselete?

Who needs a dog thats good at catching rats when you dont live in a farmhouse (or a DHS house)?

Who needs a dog that is good at herding when all of the animals live in battery conditions?

Who needs a dog to run down deer. lions, tigers, elephants (whatever hunting dogs run down)?

People will want dogs that are companions and that is all. We will all have the best alarm systems and thus need guard dogs.

I do realise that I am being facitious in some of what I say and that I exaggerating as well, but who knows what the future brings?

What do you think? Are we going to end up in a world of oodles and not much else 20 years...50 years...100 years from now?

I certainly hope not!! And I seriously doubt it!

I never promoted oodles (I own a GSD - if you had read my intro thread before jumping down my throat you would have seen that) AND I don't personally believe the marketing, but the general public does. This thread was meant to encourage discuss not incite attacks. Deary me.

What I was really wondering whether people think that oodles are a danger to our purebreds. I am also talking about the future, not today, not tomorrow, but years ahead. Trends and so forth.

I didn't realise I was so unclear in my original post. My apologies.

I brought this up as I was at petstock today and noticed a magazine with a footballer on it. It was promoting his oodle as the perfect pet.

Trends come and go...in 10yrs time purebreeds may be the in thing! Personally around where I live I see alot more pure breeds than crosses. We went to look at garage sales yesty and everyman and his dog (literally) were out and about we saw several staffords being walked, a number of beagles two of which were harnessed to a ute while their parents looked at garage sales a number of kelpies, cattle dogs, labs, goldens and border collies! We didnt see one oodle all day, at one sale we did see some mutty little foxie cross that the owners were telling one of their friends that they plan to breed...I promptly left wasnt giving them a cent of my money!

[poodlefan]

There has been a surge of x bred oodles tailored to size and shape

And there's one myth that needs exploding for a start.

You cannot reliably "tailor" the size and shape of F1 cross two very different breeds. I wouldn't mind $10 for every time a DD owner has told me "he grew bigger than we expected". Crossing a Miniature Poodle and a Labrador Retriever gives you any combination of size, temperament and coat type.

The only thing these dogs are tailored for is to look very cute in a pet shop or on the internet and to line their breeders wallets.

The pounds are full of crossbred dogs that didnt' turn out like their owners expected. If you want more predictability in a adult dog, you buy a purebred pup.

There's nothing wrong with poodles. Their biggest problem is the very incorrect image of them as only suitable for life as a cossetted lap dog.

Edited April 18, 2010 by poodlefan

[AmandaS]

What I observe is that there is a big popularity of cross-bred toy dogs. In particular crosses involving Maltese, Shih Tzus and Toy Poodles seem to be really common. I also notice that because these breeds, whilst different, have some common traits such as having a low prey drive and a low shedding coat that, in the main, the people owning these dogs seem to be happy with them and often seek a similar type of dog when looking for their next dog.

Sadly most of these dogs come from pet shops (i.e. puppy farms) or backyard breeders.

I think that it would be interesting to think about why many people are choosing the cross breeds over the pure breeds of these dogs and whether it would be possible to set up an ethical breeding program to breed a moderate type, friendly, healthy, low shedding small companion dog from a suitable selection of parent dog breeds.

[Gayle.]

I think that it would be interesting to think about why many people are choosing the cross breeds over the pure breeds of these dogs and whether it would be possible to set up an ethical breeding program to breed a moderate type, friendly, healthy, low shedding small companion dog from a suitable selection of parent dog breeds.

They are choosing them because they are readily available, and the oodle breeders have good marketing skills. The pups are being bred purely to make a buck, so those producing them are advertising in all the "right" places and putting the pups where people will notice them.

Ethical breeders, on the other hand, are breeding selectivley to improve the breed and not necessarily for the money. They hand pick the homes the pups will go to and often only advertise in dog-related places (DOL, breeders publications, breed websites etc) if they even advertise at all. Some don't need to as they have buyers waiting patiently for their pups. They are selling to people who are looking for a well bred pedigree pup, not someone who is buying on an impulse.

There are already quite a number of moderate, friendly, healthy, low shedding small companion dogs available as purebreds, no need to create more. Havanese, Maltese, Shih-Tsu, Poodles, Lagotto, Cavs and pugs (OK, not low shedding but they tick the rest of the boxes). All nice little dogs, all with great pet potential.

[Greytmate]

What I observe is that there is a big popularity of cross-bred toy dogs. In particular crosses involving Maltese, Shih Tzus and Toy Poodles seem to be really common. I also notice that because these breeds, whilst different, have some common traits such as having a low prey drive and a low shedding coat that, in the main, the people owning these dogs seem to be happy with them and often seek a similar type of dog when looking for their next dog.

Some do end up with a problem coat, and those people are not happy. Where as they would have been had they bought a purebred with a predictable coat.

I think that it would be interesting to think about why many people are choosing the cross breeds over the pure breeds of these dogs and whether it would be possible to set up an ethical breeding program to breed a moderate type, friendly, healthy, low shedding small companion dog from a suitable selection of parent dog breeds.

Those breeding programs are in place and have been for a long time. This website is for the purebreed dog community, what do you think purebreed breeders are trying to do? Many of them are breeding moderate type, friendly, healthy, low-shedding small companion dogs from the most suitable parents they can get.

The only difference is the way the two different categories of dogs are marketed. We know why so many people choose the cross breed dogs. Even in this thread that is supposedly not promoting cross bred dogs, people are coming out with ridiculous statements about what can be expected in a cross-breed dog.

[Adnil444]

I never promoted oodles (I own a GSD - if you had read my intro thread before jumping down my throat you would have seen that) AND I don't personally believe the marketing, but the general public does. This thread was meant to encourage discuss not incite attacks. Deary me.

What I was really wondering whether people think that oodles are a danger to our purebreds. I am also talking about the future, not today, not tomorrow, but years ahead. Trends and so forth.

I didn't realise I was so unclear in my original post. My apologies.

I brought this up as I was at petstock today and noticed a magazine with a footballer on it. It was promoting his oodle as the perfect pet.

Don't worry, I certainly understood where you were coming from - you weren't promoting the oodles breeds at all, you were simply stating a fact that are purebred becoming obsolete because of the influx of the oodles out there and what is going to happen in the future. Not once did you mention that you were advocating this.

[Guest Pandii]

if the world is going to be oodles in 20 or 50 years, I am buying a cat