Barking When Training

[Erny]

Yes... jovial... And nervous. Brain talk in training makes me I know I don't understand the brain very well, despite recently reading a pile of papers on the brain chemistry of rewards, anticipation, and appetite. The more you learn the less you realise you know. I was being jovial to cover up my own nervousness. Glad to hear my nervousness was misplaced.

Huh?

Edited April 18, 2010 by Erny

[bedazzledx2]

Here's another take on it....

For around the house with a noisy dog barking for no apparent reason I played the "You won a prize" game. This was taken from the clicker solutions list a long time ago with my very verbal kelpie (RIP). I was always careful to ensure she wasn't barking (or woofing) for a real reason...people on the property or needing to go out etc. Attention barking got a response from me of "you've won a prize" and quietly with absolutely no fuss I took her by the collar and closed her into the bedroom for a few minutes. Let her out again with no fuss. She barked...."you've won a prize".....quietly into the bedroom again. Didn't take long before she cottoned on. This must be done with a lot of thought. Absolutely it is not given as a punishment. You are quiet and calm throughout. You must be sure that it is just attention barking.

Now for the competition stuff....

Sometimes we are so pleased they do what we have asked...eg a great finish...we can make the mistake of clicking or marking the finish and ignore or not notice that a bark or woof went with it! Bingo! Just rewarded 2 things at once!!!! This can be very hard to change but it can be done. Sometimes the dog is so 'high' that they woof without realising they do it. It is very difficult for the dog to separate what it is that you don't like. The way I did it was to work on a new behaviour that doesn't matter. For Brooklyn that was heeling backwards. He was so pleased with himself that he was squeaking as he did it....I marked it with a NRM and put him away for a few minutes. Brought him out again and when quiet I rewarded. I worked on lots of different behaviors that elicited the woof so as to make it very clear to him what was being rewarded and what was causing the NRM.

Thanks for all your feedback.

I will give it a week of trying what has been discussed and get back to you all.

Deep breathing!!!

[Stitch]

Time for some feedback for those that are interested in this complex situation.

Correction definitely has very limited effect so has to be used very sparingly but definitely used in some situations.

Praise works better if I can find something to praise and it is very difficult sometimes to find something positive.

We almost have the sit every time now but I still don't think the brain is totally grasping the exercise as she is jumping around so much she can't possibly be concentrating.

I am trying to achieve 'quiet time' with this dog ie. sitting quietly and trying to get her into relaxation mode.

I have noticed that she rarely relaxes - she goes from 0 to 100mph in 1 second!

I think Caesar Milans methods to encourage a relaxed state of mind have a definite place here and this will have a roll on effect to reduce the talking although achieving a relaxed state of mind with this dog is definitely not easy.

It is the waiting for the relaxation to kick in that is difficult for me as she is not my only dog and I don't have unlimited time.

It took me 10 minutes last night to calm her sufficiently (not entirely) to stop the yapping and running around that always preceeds feeding time but we did it in the end. Everything excites her immediately hence me saying the 0-100mph thing.

I just have to factor in more time for doing anything that involves her.

[Aidan3]

Everything I teach dogs like this has to be quiet or there is no reward. Quiet is the most fundamental criterion, so it might have been a really great recall off a live rabbit beside a highway but the dog barked so there is no reward.

Also, just sitting beside you or hanging out is behaviour, so if it's quiet - reward it.

Reward for appropriate duration of quietness. In other words, don't wait so long the dog starts barking again. If the dog can only go a second or two without barking, you reward every second until you can stretch out the duration. The first couple of training sessions will look ridiculous and you'll feel like you didn't work on anything but doling out food every couple of seconds. Don't despair, if you actually do it consistently the dog often figures out very quickly that barking isn't part of the deal.

As Erny has suggested, this can be a very good place for the use of conditioned No Reward Markers.

[corvus]

It took me 10 minutes last night to calm her sufficiently (not entirely) to stop the yapping and running around that always preceeds feeding time but we did it in the end. Everything excites her immediately hence me saying the 0-100mph thing.

That sounds familiar! When Erik was a puppy I had taught him by about 10-12 weeks to sit quietly to wait for his dinner. Problem was, he then figured out all the little cues that would tell him dinner was imminent and he'd get so excited he was no longer capable of sitting quietly and he was worse than ever! At the same time, he was starting to cotton on to other cues in his life. I kid you not, OH would ring home before he left work and Erik would start barking then and get gradually more excited until it peaked when OH arrived home 40 minutes later, and then he'd stay wound up for a couple of hours at least. He would be so wired that every little noise would have him on his feet barking and off to investigate. OH was ready to send him back to his breeder. He was about 5 months old when he was at his worst.

We concentrated on uncoupling the things that were cueing his excitement from the things he was so excited about. So picking up his bowl no longer meant he would get food very soon. It would get dished out and sit on the counter for an hour if that's how long it took him to calm down. OH's nightly phone call predicted that I would go and play a game with him and then we would sit on a mat with a Kong or a pig's ear and he would get a massage. We also started massages at least once a day and coupled it with a "shhh" command that he already knew meant to stop barking. I started teaching him self control with games by winding him up for 30 seconds, then winding back down with "shhh" and then winding back up again so he learnt to bring himself back a few notches very quickly.

Karen Overall's relaxation protocol might be worth a look, and Leslie McDevitt's Control Unleashed book is full of ways to manage highly strung dogs.

Bedazzled, do you think the CS "you won a prize" game would work on any dog if done right? I have been loathe to use anything that remotely resembles a time out with Erik for a long time, now. He used to have melt downs if I separated him from us. Proper, hysterical, mess himself melt downs. He is a lot better now and can usually manage a few minutes if it's in a context he knows, but it's always dicey to me. If it's in a context he hasn't experienced it in before I think he'd go right back to just a step away from a melt down again.

[bedazzledx2]

Corvus, the bitch I used it on was a very strong working kelpie so it didn't have any unwanted fallout. If Erik is unable to deal with any form of time out then I wouldn't use it unless it had already been conditioned. I would be more inclined to use a NRM and self control games.

It took me 10 minutes last night to calm her sufficiently (not entirely) to stop the yapping and running around that always preceeds feeding time but we did it in the end. Everything excites her immediately hence me saying the 0-100mph thing.

That sounds familiar! When Erik was a puppy I had taught him by about 10-12 weeks to sit quietly to wait for his dinner. Problem was, he then figured out all the little cues that would tell him dinner was imminent and he'd get so excited he was no longer capable of sitting quietly and he was worse than ever! At the same time, he was starting to cotton on to other cues in his life. I kid you not, OH would ring home before he left work and Erik would start barking then and get gradually more excited until it peaked when OH arrived home 40 minutes later, and then he'd stay wound up for a couple of hours at least. He would be so wired that every little noise would have him on his feet barking and off to investigate. OH was ready to send him back to his breeder. He was about 5 months old when he was at his worst.

We concentrated on uncoupling the things that were cueing his excitement from the things he was so excited about. So picking up his bowl no longer meant he would get food very soon. It would get dished out and sit on the counter for an hour if that's how long it took him to calm down. OH's nightly phone call predicted that I would go and play a game with him and then we would sit on a mat with a Kong or a pig's ear and he would get a massage. We also started massages at least once a day and coupled it with a "shhh" command that he already knew meant to stop barking. I started teaching him self control with games by winding him up for 30 seconds, then winding back down with "shhh" and then winding back up again so he learnt to bring himself back a few notches very quickly.

Karen Overall's relaxation protocol might be worth a look, and Leslie McDevitt's Control Unleashed book is full of ways to manage highly strung dogs.

Bedazzled, do you think the CS "you won a prize" game would work on any dog if done right? I have been loathe to use anything that remotely resembles a time out with Erik for a long time, now. He used to have melt downs if I separated him from us. Proper, hysterical, mess himself melt downs. He is a lot better now and can usually manage a few minutes if it's in a context he knows, but it's always dicey to me. If it's in a context he hasn't experienced it in before I think he'd go right back to just a step away from a melt down again.

[Stitch]

Thank you for the ideas.

My lot are always listening and watching for clues as to what is going to happen next.

Dogs are supposed to like routine!

I guess that is so they can anticipate what is coming next!!!

Anyway, I will continue on with my goal of her calming down and try to reward the calmer behaviour.

Of course there are always times that things have to be done quickly - sigh!

That is when I feel we are going backwards!!