Barking When Training

[Stitch]

I have a 5mth old girl, very difficult to train as she can't seem to concentrate on anything or anyone for more than 2 seconds if that!!

A real challenge - however what is MOST irritating is that she is a talker. She woofs when any command is given in training, she woofs if things aren't happening quick enough for her, she woofs if she is corrected for doing something like jumping around, she woofs at other dogs to get them to react to her & play, in other words she woofs a great deal of the time.

On the positive side she loves praise however what she is taught with positive rewards doesn't seem to stick as she forgets it very quickly. I am battling to get her to remember sit.

If I didn't know better I would swear she had been dropped on her head at birth.

I have trained a lot of dogs over the years but she would be the most difficult one I have ever had, she is just soooo dizzy!!

Can anyone help??

[Nekhbet]

what breed?

[Addicted to Dogs]

STITCH

I'd be doing some testing to find treats or games that she finds super motivating or making her work for every piece of her dinner. You should see an improvement in focus after a day or two.

As for her not rembering sit - is it possible that you just don't wait for her to sit before giving her what she wants (access to the house, outdoors, a game like fetch or tug) rather than she doesn't know it?

It sounds to me like you might have a couple of issues colliding here including a) a dog that is over aroused/stimulated by training and shows this with the vocals b) an adolescent dog for whom the lure/reward training technique isn't as effective as it might have been, c) some stress/confusion associated with her trying to figure out what you want and possibly d) her not being convinced it's worth her time to always follow through even when she does know or have an idea what you want. Of course we actually can't tell what's going on in her mind - but you can try things and see how they go.

You could try:

1. Putting a dog coat or tshirt (cut and then sown to fit or tied up at the back - off the spine though) so that it fits something like a Thundershirt (see http://www.thundershirt.com/ for an example). You won't need it for ever but it does help dogs centre themselves and be able to concentrate.

2. Using a modified approach that seems to work for adolescent dogs called all-or-none training to break through to her. See http://www.dogstardaily.com/training/all-o...reward-training for instructions.

3. Try teaching her to jazz up and settle down so that she and you can learn to control her arousal levels. See http://www.dogstardaily.com/training/jazz-and-settle-down for more info.

4. Do shorter training sessions (just a couple of reps, and just a few minutes in total) throughout the day rather than longer sessions. Don't train when you're stressed, anxious or feeling pressured for time etc. You can build training into daily activities including around the house (http://www.dogstardaily.com/training/lifestyle-training), on the walk (http://www.dogstardaily.com/training/training-dog-walk) and in the car (http://www.dogstardaily.com/training/training-car) so that it becomes a part of day to day existance rather than a special high pressure event.

5. Teach her woof and shush so that you have an off swith (http://www.dogstardaily.com/training/woofshush) or ignore all barking (as reacting to it could be reinforcing it).

Don't try to do all this at once - and not at class either. Start at home - and then build up. If you're doing classes I'd recommend talking to your trainer about only doing very short stints and then practicing settling between activities.

And if all else fails check out clickertraining if you haven't already as this can help clarify what it is you want for the dog. See http://www.clickertraining.com/dogtraining for more info.

Good luck.

[luvsablue]

Five months is still pretty young, at that age mine used to jump up and down and sideways like a crazy kangaroo. When she wasn't being a kangaroo she

used to sniff the ground in a really manic way.

She kind of grew out of it and started acting as though she had a brain when she was older.

luvsablue

[Stitch]

Thanks for your responses, especially Addicted TD.

I try very hard not to respond to her woofing. I call it woofing rather than barking because it is low pitched and is always done as an anticipation of something to come and directed at me.

She is anticipating everything - something happening when she is walking on a lead, waiting for a door to open, or having to wait for her dinner, or having to wait to play ball. She anticipates getting a biscuit going to bed, so she gives me the hurry up. You get the idea!!

This would be cute except she does it for everything, all day, every day, from the moment she gets up to the moment she goes to bed - so after a while it grates on my nerves - and I have to actively think calm thoughts.

I have tried making her wait a little longer but the woofing just gets worse. I try to get her to sit but she just continues with the woofing in a sitting position.

I will follow up on all those links you provided, so that will take me a bit of time to go through.

In the meantime I will practice some deep breathing!!

Edited April 16, 2010 by STITCH

[Staranais]

Does she have a command for quiet, so you can ask for it when you want it?

I think my girl would have driven me crazy long since if I couldn't ask her to stop barking!

Easy to teach - teach bark first (just capture it), then teach quiet as a contrast.

[Erny]

Eg : You say "sit", she 'woofs'. Give NRM turn your back and walk away, ignoring her completely for the next little while (a couple of minutes should do). Repeat.

Eg : You go to the door, she barks. Give NRM and walk away with a "all bets off" attitude and ignore her. Repeat.

Eg : She starts barking at other dogs, increase her distance away from them. She's quiet, walk towards them. She barks, turn around and increase distance.

Eg : Stop giving her a biscuit before bed. Randomise your patterns - this will help break-down her ability to anticipate.

Obviously your goal is to catch a 'win' wherever and as soon as you can as often as you can, so you can begin to show her that it is the barking that is the unwanted component of her behaviour and that it is this behaviour that loses her reward. So if you do say "sit" and she begins the sit without a 'woof', mark it with "yes" and reward. Even if you've marked the sit a bit earlier than you would (eg. she hasn't quite sat), just for the sake of showing her the rewards come for the no barking.

You could also practice "TOT" - this will help in working up her concentration and focus which in turn should assist with teaching her not to bark through/during commands.

My boy has just begun the barking when I give a command - only when he's full-on excited. He's fairly advanced in his command obedience training, so I do multiples of position changes and continue with that a bit until he gives me one position compliance without a bark, then I'm releasing and rewarding.

Edited April 17, 2010 by Erny

[Stitch]

Hi Erny,

I have difficulty in seeing exactly what it is that she wants on most occasions.

Of course it is obvious if she is waiting to be fed, or waiting to go out a gate or door but just walking around in training I don't get it??? Can you throw around a few ideas in this area and maybe the penny will drop for me???

I think my utter frustration sometimes gets in the way but as I said I am now practicing deep breathing before it progresses to a full on headache!!

Her mother does this woof but no where near as bad so I am inclined to think there is a certain hereditary component here as the pup started to do it very early and had not heard her mother do it at that stage.

Thank god I have kept this line separate to my others although the overall temperament is very loving and extremely friendly.

Its actually been very theraputic to talk about it here and I will be giving taking on board all advice.

[Erny]

... but just walking around in training I don't get it??? Can you throw around a few ideas in this area and maybe the penny will drop for me???

I'd begin by getting the 'idea' of not barking going around the home first - skip going to training for a week or two. If you email me after you've worked on this at home with the suggestions I've made, including following "TOT" and let me know how things are going, we'll discuss further what you might be able to do when you go to training. Bear in mind that I am not seeing this dog, so it is impossible for me to assess what the barking is about. For example, when she's barking at you, it could be her way of (eg) 'demanding', whereas at training it could be anxiety based. So all I could do would be to give you educated 'tips' for you to try. But it will take a bit of dedication, patience and consistency on your part to determine whether my suggestion/s are going to be working. There is only so much that I can suggest to you over the internet and much can be lost in the translation.

Edited April 17, 2010 by Erny

[Ptolomy]

My boy has just begun the barking when I give a command - only when he's full-on excited. He's fairly advanced in his command obedience training, so I do multiples of position changes and continue with that a bit until he gives me one position compliance without a bark, then I'm releasing and rewarding.

Erny - I am not sure this will work as I see this as a behaviour chain - he is allowed to bark and gets rewarded when he stops you are still allowing the barking in the first place????

[Erny]

Erny - I am not sure this will work as I see this as a behaviour chain - he is allowed to bark and gets rewarded when he stops you are still allowing the barking in the first place????

In this instance, it would mainly be when I've been out, returned home and he's (very) excited to see me. I don't stop the CoP command routine, there are no "reward markers" and there are "NRM's" at the point of barking (both of which he's learnt very well) and I avoid any other interaction with him (eg physical, which is the acknowledgement he wants) until he stops with the barking. He does all of this at a small distance from me - ie I have not permitted physical interaction. In the process I'm also proofing his command responses, as he is doing them when he'd otherwise be leaping 10 feet in the air and bursting out of his skin. It's not an 'every time' occurrence.

You're right though .... if I recognised that this routine was perpetuating, it might be due to a behaviour chain becoming learnt. But because I vary the CoP routine a lot (I'll include stay work in that as well, sometimes) and because it is not an 'every time' occurrence as aforementioned and because I do this routine (and others) at other times as well, I don't believe it will develop as a recognised behaviour chain.

Edited April 17, 2010 by Erny

[corvus]

Hmm... By your description, it sounds like she has two problems, one being she is lacking in awareness of what she's being taught (maybe??) and the other being anticipating things she wants with a lot of excitement. I'm a little unclear if that's the case, because you also say she doesn't have a lot of concentration. I'm finding it hard to imagine a dog that both doesn't concentrate and anticipates everything. If she's anticipating everything, she must be picking up cues everywhere she goes? In which case, I wonder if she just isn't aware of what she's being rewarded for, because it seems that if she was she would be all over retaining what she had been taught?

Anyway, I have one dog that barks a lot during training and is highly anticipatory and another dog that often doesn't grasp what he's being rewarded for and so takes a long time to train sometimes. I can reward him for doing the right thing all I like but until he understands what he did to get a reward he won't learn it. This has led to some intense brainstorming in how to make him aware of things his body is doing. My answer has been to target train him so that he learns to move whatever part of his body I indicate to a target.

The other dog with his anticipation of things and his barking... I've found that the barking goes away on its own when he's really focused. It comes back the second he gets a teensy bit frustrated, but as long as he feels like he's getting somewhere and our reward rate is pretty high, he is quiet. He does have a bark and quiet command, but he also has a lot to say and saying it is sometimes more important to him than restraining himself for the sake of some other reward. The anticipation is also tricky because he does get very excited. There's a rule in our house that he doesn't get anything without first sitting or downing QUIETLY. He knows the drill, and if he decides to walk around barking instead he gets ignored. Even so, if he's really excited it's just a fact of life that he can't hold it in. He'll bring himself under control on his own a lot of the time, but there will always be noise. It helped to teach him that "Shh" meant not only shut your mouth, but lie down and give me some sleepy eyes and put that tail down a bit. He still anticipates, but at least he is not so noisy and crazy.

[Stitch]

Just quickly reading your responses I would say that this pup is more like what Corvus has written.

She seems to like to bark just for the fun of it but on thinking about that, it can't be the case, it has to have been caused by something and may be to do with the speed she lives her life. That has to be a learned response to her need for things to happen quickly.

She is extremely quick in all her movements, playing, etc. She does everything at 100mph.

If I could only figure this one out I actually think she might be quick to learn - it is just figuring out how to teach her to make that breakthrough - it certainly isn't what I have been doing so I know I have to change my thinking.

Where to start though, I have done sit over and over again, with food and also with voice reward which she really loves but I can't even get to first base with that, the penny just doesn't drop, and I have trained some hard heads over the years.

Thanks Erny for your offer, I will get back to you on that!

I am going to go back to square one and just work on the eye contact & reward any calm behaviour this coming week.

[Erny]

Stitch - can you slow things down a bit, with her. I don't know the training method you've already been doing but (using "sit" as the example) can you go back to the beginning and use, say, a "guide show place" method instead?

Normally I wouldn't go the "slow things down" route because I'm all for speed responses, but the barking could have come initially from confusion at not being clear about what you wanted but still wanting the reward from you.

[Stitch]

I will try to slow things down, perhaps I inadvertently taught this one the need for speed but on reflection I can't see that I did anything different than I usually do. IMO it was in her from the start.

I started with a martingale collar on her but had to resort to a check chain as she was just all over the place and the pulling was getting uncontrollable. I tried to get her to slow down by just stopping and waiting for the lead to go loose but I could wait 5 minutes and she would still be pulling. Start up again and the pulling would continue, time and time again. Other pups have caught on to that one after about 30 seconds and ceased to pull.

The check chain does get her respect but it also brings out the woofing.

Tried the long lead & changing direction when she started to pull, with the same result.

[Erny]

I will try to slow things down, perhaps I inadvertently taught this one the need for speed but on reflection I can't see that I did anything different than I usually do. IMO it was in her from the start.

Different strokes for different folks, as they say. Sounds to me she's thinking with her hind brain and needs to learn to think with the front brain. Not a great deal of learning occurs during hind brain drive.

I started with a martingale collar on her but had to resort to a check chain as she was just all over the place and the pulling was getting uncontrollable. I tried to get her to slow down by just stopping and waiting for the lead to go loose but I could wait 5 minutes and she would still be pulling. Start up again and the pulling would continue, time and time again. Other pups have caught on to that one after about 30 seconds and ceased to pull.

The check chain does get her respect but it also brings out the woofing.

Sounds to me that a different technique is required and that her barking might be one of frustration.

Tried the long lead & changing direction when she started to pull, with the same result.

This technique often works, but not always. How long did you stick to the technique, and at what point was she barking?

[corvus]

Sounds to me she's thinking with her hind brain and needs to learn to think with the front brain. Not a great deal of learning occurs during hind brain drive.

Can you think with your hindbrain at all? I always thought that was just automatic stuff down there. Anyway, doesn't matter.

Have you tried clicker training, Stitch? It's a good way to get animals thinking about what they are doing and understanding consequences. Nose targets are a great place to start because it's so easy they are certain to win and be getting treats every couple of seconds. They can't bark if they are mostly eating. I've heard of using something sticky like peanut butter on a spoon as a reward for noisy dogs as it gums up their mouth.

My noisy little fella also goes pretty fast much of the time. I can only imagine what it would be like living with a dog that went at high speed all the time. At least Erik has a (slightly flakey) off switch and learnt pretty quickly how to think through his arousal. Sounds like you need to read Control Unleashed.

[Erny]

Can you think with your hindbrain at all? I always thought that was just automatic stuff down there. Anyway, doesn't matter.

LOL ..... if you were thinking with your front brain you'd know it was a manner of speaking and in an attempt to be simplistic when details are unnecessary for the purpose of writing.

You're right. "Doesn't matter". I presume you were being jovial by raising it? LOL

Edited April 17, 2010 by Erny

[Stitch]

Thanks for all your feedback.

I will give it a week of trying what has been discussed and get back to you all.

Deep breathing!!!

[corvus]

Can you think with your hindbrain at all? I always thought that was just automatic stuff down there. Anyway, doesn't matter.

LOL ..... if you were thinking with your front brain you'd know it was a manner of speaking and in an attempt to be simplistic when details are unnecessary for the purpose of writing.

You're right. "Doesn't matter". I presume you were being jovial by raising it? LOL

Yes... jovial... And nervous. Brain talk in training makes me I know I don't understand the brain very well, despite recently reading a pile of papers on the brain chemistry of rewards, anticipation, and appetite. The more you learn the less you realise you know. I was being jovial to cover up my own nervousness. :D Glad to hear my nervousness was misplaced.

Good luck, Stitch. It'll be interesting to hear how you go. It's the tricky ones that teach us the most.