Training And Deprivation

[Red Fox]

Ah okay. I have a dog who cannot tollerate an empty stomach (has been this way since he was a baby puppy and is now 18 months old) so rather than fasting him I just train around meal times when I know he'll be hungry. Fasting doesn't work for him as it just makes him miserable and less willing to train, which is of course the opposite of what I want. I was just curious to know what you'd suggest for dogs in that situation

[Starkehre]

Interesting responses, thanks everyone.

Could we now ask when does deprivation with a training aim, go too far? Where is the line?

It is a good question cosmolo... I would like to think that I could be tough enough to deprive my dog for a whole 24 or 48 hrs of food if I thought it would get me the result in a comp that I wanted, but the fact is that I couldn't and wouldn't do it. I am not saying I am against it, I see the merit, but I just couldn't do it.

For example going back to my last post regarding the upcoming trial the next day, I cut right down on her food, but she already doesn't eat much anyway, as she gets fats very easily. So what would have been a dinner meal of around a total of 1.5 cups of food, went down to 2/3 cup. and brekky was 1 x 2x2 Box 1 biscuit, which is usual brekky anyway.

That is as tough as I can get food wise.

The love deprivation I described earlier ran on into the next day, day of the trial. Instead of having her in her crate next to me or having intermitten cuddles, she was kept in the float. The float was right with us and under shade and she had a comfortable bed and water, but I knew she would have loved to sit with me. She cried out a couple of times, and it did break my heart, but my OH emptied her for me a couple of times, and then when it was time to prep her for her class, we did so and went straight in. No obedience training outside the ring or anything.

Just a quick drive session with her chicken wing and in.

I will also say that I only do this for obedience trialling and she has now achieved what I feel is enough for her and has retired in obedience, so won't need to do this again. Also I never used deprivation in training, except to ensure my dog had not eaten the half day prior.

For agility, conformation, herding, tracking and anything else Dyzney has done or is doing she has enough drive and willing ness to work. This deprivation was purely for heeling purposes, which has always been my nemesis.

I know my own conscience could not allow me to get to the point in deprivation where the dog was physically or emotional suffering.

As an owner I know what my dog can handle. She behaves hungry all the time no matter how little or lot you feed her, so we can create food drive even when she is 3/4 full, so starving her would not give me much higher drive than I can already get. That is why I used attention deprivation.

Mind you directly after her last pass and title, we had lots of snuggles and plays, so her desires were fulfilled.

[Erny]

Could we now ask when does deprivation with a training aim, go too far? Where is the line?

IMO - When the "deprivation" enhances good/wanted behaviour without causing harm to the dog.

Edited April 23, 2010 by Erny

[Agility Dogs]

For training I don't deprive at all, other than when we are training the dogs are in their crates when they are not working.

On the day of a trial and possibly the day before the dogs spend a lot of time in their crates with very short, intense bursts of activity every couple of hours.

I find this gets them in the right mind set and they come out much more ready to work.

As far as going too far, I think it depends on the dog. Some dogs need 'help' to reach arousal where others are quite naturally high and will work. For some dogs 4 hours in a crate when it is not necessary is excessive, for others it might not be enough.

If the dog is suffering then IMO you have gone too far with deprivation. Otherwise when the dog's performance is not improved by the technique you have been OTT.

[sas]

I minimise the food given before training, I would withdraw food completely before training if he didn't completely drool all through the training session which gets all over the lead and down my pants....Dane Slobber.

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

I might be a bit out of my league here, I don't compete (yet).

I don't deprive my dog of meals, I sometimes delay a meal till after training or class, depending on how close they are together. If it's four or more hours after mealtime to class time, then I feed at the normal time. I use treats during training, and try to cut back the meal by that much - or I use the meal kibble as part of the treats (low value ones).

I definitely deprive my dog of my company/attention if I want to improve performance. This usually happens when I want to catch her and she wants to play chase me. I shut her outside by herself for five to ten minutes, and then when I go back out there, she's easy to catch.

Hadn't thought about that in terms of before competition or class, but she's definitely more clingy if she's been separated from me for a little while. It seems to wear off after about 15 minutes though. Might make the stay-recall hard though if she's stuck to my knee and won't stay.

[corvus]

I don't consider the above deprivation. To me, deprivation creates an appetite. As in, thresholds that trigger behaviour to do something about that particular state are lower than usual. Say, a cat is hungry and therefore when a mouse runs by it is more likely to try to catch it. In a training sense, say the dog is hungry, so is more likely to respond to stimuli that suggest food is coming with more gusto. It particularly doesn't want to miss out on the food and it's particularly easy to make it think about how to get food.

It's all well and good to say you can deprive as long as you do no harm, but how do you tell if you are doing harm through deprivation? What do you classify as harm?

[Agility Dogs]

It's all well and good to say you can deprive as long as you do no harm, but how do you tell if you are doing harm through deprivation? What do you classify as harm?

to me harm is physically or mentally damaging. This would be caused by something that I wouldn't do as a matter of course at some point any way.

eg: I WOULD choose not to feed by dogs for 24 hours - having them go without food is not going to harm them. They are built this way.

I have not problem in keeping them crated (removing their freedoms) for longer than usual either - they spend 8 to 10 hours a night in their crates. An extra few hours in the day is not going to harm them in any way, but does keep them rested and maximises their stimulation levels when they come out.

[Kavik]

I crate Kaos at training and trials becaue as Agility Dogs said, I want him rested and ready to go when it is our turn. He relaxes in his crate and knows when he comes out it is time for action. It is also for my sanity as he doesn't relax as well when outside the crate