Training And Deprivation

[Red Fox]

Timely topic! I am kind of torn over this.

I completely understand how deprivation works and that by limiting access to something that the dog wants should increase the dogs desire for that reward - whether it be toys, food, training, attention, etc.

Yet I have a dog that seems to be the opposite.

The more he does the more he wants to do, the more he eats the more he wants to eat. If I restrict his activity levels for a few days then instead of having a dog that is bouncing off the walls I end up with a dog who just wants to laze around. If I restrict his food intake to try and peak his interest that way he becomes lethargic -or worse vomits bile as his tummy is empty.

At the moment I am working on increasing his drive for food and while things are moving along okay it seems that all the things that should work for most dogs just dont work for mine

ETA: Good luck for tomorrow Dyzney

Edited April 17, 2010 by SecretKei

[Starkehre]

Timely topic! I am kind of torn over this.

I completely understand how deprivation works and that by limiting access to something that the dog wants should increase the dogs desire for that reward - whether it be toys, food, training, attention, etc.

Yet I have a dog that seems to be the opposite.

The more he does the more he wants to do, the more he eats the more he wants to eat. If I restrict his activity levels for a few days then instead of having a dog that is bouncing off the walls I end up with a dog who just wants to laze around. If I restrict his food intake to try and peak his interest that way he becomes lethargic -or worse vomits bile as his tummy is empty.

At the moment I am working on increasing his drive for food and while things are moving along okay it seems that all the things that should work for most dogs just dont work for mine

ETA: Good luck for tomorrow Dyzney

SecretKei, you are absolutely right, it doesn't work on all dogs, unless of course you were prepared to deprive them so badly that were going into survival mode with food, and no one is suggesting we do this.

I know how hard you have been working on developing Kei's drives. Keep up the good work. You will get there.

Thank you for the well wishes for Dyzney.

[huski]

Good luck with Dyz tomorrow!!!!! You should catch it on video

[J...]

Good luck for tomorrow dyzney!

I withhold breakfast on the morning of training - simply because I don't want Darcy running around at agility with a belly full of bone and that's what her breakfast normally is. Motivation wise there is no need to withhold anything for agility.

Trials I normally leave very early (say 4.30 - 5 am) and if trialling in agility I feed her two chicken wings in the car as I leave just to give her some food in her belly for the full day ahead. I never used to and feel she performs much better if she'd had something to eat, it's a big day on an empty stomach.

Obedience trialling - she just misses breakfast, but she gets a small tin of Natures Gift canned food as her jackpot outside the ring plus treats to warm up with so she's not hungry all day. She isn't as drivey for obedience so having her a bit hungry doesn't hurt.

Toys - both my dogs have access to toys full time, quite often they stay in the same spot in the yard until I pick them up to mow the lawn. They only see value in them if I'm playing with them. Zee does like to kill cheap ones and remove their squeakers while sitting inside of a night time, but that's just a hobby of hers.

Edited April 17, 2010 by Jess.

[Starkehre]

Good luck with Dyz tomorrow!!!!! You should catch it on video

U know that ain't gunna happen husk. but nice try

Thank you for your best wishes

Have you put that entry in yet???.

[Starkehre]

And thank you Jess.

[huski]

Good luck with Dyz tomorrow!!!!! You should catch it on video

U know that ain't gunna happen husk. but nice try

Thank you for your best wishes

Have you put that entry in yet???.

LOL Can't blame me for trying!!

No not yet, still working on stays, they are quite atrocious at the moment, and a million other things

[Starkehre]

You are such a hard worker. I know you and Daisy will get it together. Your enthusiasm is inspirational.

I wish I could say I feel your pain, but I gotta say, Dyzney's only poor part of her obedience is her heeling (mind you it is such a major part) . So once we scrape it through, I tend to breathe a huge sigh of relief, as all the other exercises are pretty close to spon on. She has not once lost any points for her stays and only the odd minor one or 2 on everything else.

I have really enjoyed being back into obedience trialling after so many years. But I gotta say, after 5 months (including xmas break) I am already ready to move on

We are really enjoying our herding and I want to get stuck into it before poor old Dyz is ready to retire.

Sorry to go OT Cosmolo

Back on topic, I just ate an ice cream in front of Dyzney. Well, she came over to watch and rovel anyway. Knowing how food driven she is, she definitely felt very deprived. Just building it up for tomorrow. I am a mean mum

[corvus]

Yet I have a dog that seems to be the opposite.

The more he does the more he wants to do, the more he eats the more he wants to eat. If I restrict his activity levels for a few days then instead of having a dog that is bouncing off the walls I end up with a dog who just wants to laze around. If I restrict his food intake to try and peak his interest that way he becomes lethargic -or worse vomits bile as his tummy is empty.

At the moment I am working on increasing his drive for food and while things are moving along okay it seems that all the things that should work for most dogs just dont work for mine

Deprivation is the classic example of an establishing operation in psychology, which is something that increases the intensity of the consequence of a stimulus. I guess that it really only works for something the dog has an appetite for in the first place. Not like "I want it" things, but "I need it" things. But that doesn't mean that you can't be quite selective about what you deprive your dog of within the broad category of a "need". It just means you won't get as strong an effect.

At least, that's the way I see it. You don't necessarily need a hungry dog to make food and eating seem better to them than usual. It's just the quickest and most effective route.

[Cosmolo]

Interesting responses, thanks everyone.

Could we now ask when does deprivation with a training aim, go too far? Where is the line?

[corvus]

It's a shame no one has answered this, because it's a real curly one IMO. It's good to figure out where your moral boundaries lie.

I didn't want to dominate the conversation seeing as I don't compete with my dogs and don't have anything I need any of my animals to have an above normal appetite for, but seeing as no one else has answered, I'll give my tentative answer.

To me, we're talking about the difference between appetite and pleasantness. Deprivation of anything that a dog has an appetite for creates a higher sensitivity towards both rewarding and aversive stimuli. There are some papers floating around that talk about the difference between appetite and palatability (want vs like) with food, suggesting that these things come about along entirely different pathways in the brain. Further, deprivation to the extent where an appetite for something is created can be stressful. The degree of stressfulness is a big fat question mark if you ask me, but it's something to consider when you decide to use deprivation.

Personally, I don't really feel comfortable messing with appetites. I'm sure they get hungry at times, and I'm sure they sometimes feel they need some social play or whatever, but I'm not comfortable trying to increase those appetites for training purposes. I think that there are times when it would be helpful, but at this point I consider it potentially too stressful for the advantages gained. That is entirely my personal take. I take meeting my animals' needs very seriously. I don't want my animals to feel hungry for anything. They can want my toys real bad, though.

[huski]

Personally, I don't really feel comfortable messing with appetites. I'm sure they get hungry at times, and I'm sure they sometimes feel they need some social play or whatever, but I'm not comfortable trying to increase those appetites for training purposes. I think that there are times when it would be helpful, but at this point I consider it potentially too stressful for the advantages gained. That is entirely my personal take. I take meeting my animals' needs very seriously. I don't want my animals to feel hungry for anything. They can want my toys real bad, though.

What if you had a dog who had Erik's drive for toys for food?

Daisy is always hungry. Even when she's eaten almost 2kg of cat food in less than five minutes. She always wants to eat. I don't know if she'd ever stop eating. Also, if I didn't cut out her meals when we were doing lots of training, she'd get fat very quickly.

I don't understand how you could feel comfortable creating desire for one natural instinct but not another (prey vs food).

[Staranais]

Personally, I don't really feel comfortable messing with appetites. I'm sure they get hungry at times, and I'm sure they sometimes feel they need some social play or whatever, but I'm not comfortable trying to increase those appetites for training purposes. I think that there are times when it would be helpful, but at this point I consider it potentially too stressful for the advantages gained. That is entirely my personal take. I take meeting my animals' needs very seriously. I don't want my animals to feel hungry for anything. They can want my toys real bad, though.

What if you had a dog who had Erik's drive for toys for food?

Daisy is always hungry. Even when she's eaten almost 2kg of cat food in less than five minutes. She always wants to eat. I don't know if she'd ever stop eating. Also, if I didn't cut out her meals when we were doing lots of training, she'd get fat very quickly.

I don't understand how you could feel comfortable creating desire for one natural instinct but not another (prey vs food).

I don't think that's what she's saying, I think she's saying she's happy to deprive the dogs of things they find pleasant, but not things that they really think they need. So she doesn't give tasty treats out for no reason, those are reserved for training, but she doesn't create a genuine appetite by making the dogs hungry before training either. Sorry if I'm putting words in your mouth, Corvus.

That approach does raise a good question, though, in that my dog's prey drive is also generally much higher than her food drive. I imagine, if I could ask her, she would say that she often feels that she needs to bite something, whereas food is only pleasant for her. So in that case, would you personally think it was OK to deprive her of food (until she started to feel a genuine appetite), but not OK to deprive her of toys?

I guess my answer would be that I'm happy to deprive my dog of anything that doesn't seriously impact her quality of life. I don't want her sitting round miserable because she's starving or bored out of her little skull all day. But I don't mind giving her hunger pangs, or making her a little bored, before training sessions.

[huski]

Ah ok I get it now, thanks Staranais. I too wonder where you would draw the line for a dog who had little food drive but massive prey drive.

I would draw the line at starving my dog for days or depriving to the point it impacts their quality of life, but having her be hungry for a training session is not a bad thing IMO. She's always hungry on some level anyway!

[corvus]

Thanks Staranais, that is more or less what I was saying.

By deprivation I mean actually causing appetite. Daisy might act hungry all the time (a lot of dogs do), but that doesn't necessarily mean she is hungry all the time. At some point her body has to be able to tell her that she seriously needs to find some food rather than just that she should eat any food she finds regardless of whether she needs it or not. This was the point I was making with bringing up appetite versus pleasantness. The body has to know the difference between what it needs to live and what it likes to have.

In answer to the prey drive question, I think we can safely fall back on not tampering too much with an animal's needs. If we define that as giving the animal the opportunity to engage in the full range of its natural behaviours, I think that prey drive satisfaction falls quite firmly within that definition as a need. I bet if you deprived a dog with high prey drive of prey drive satisfaction you would end up with a stressed dog. Same as if you don't give a dog enough exercise their behaviour gets a bit neurotic.

[Vickie]

So, with a training aim in mind, do you deprive the dog of any of the following- and at what point and for what duration would you use them?

Food in terms of meals

Food in terms of treats

Activity (eg, utilising a crate or pen before work)

Restriction/ removal of toys

Restricting contact with people

Do you use these thing every day? Just before work or a big event like a trial? Where do you personally draw the line in terms of the level of and duration of deprivation?

I don't use any of these things for training right now. I understand the theory behind it & many top competitors use these techniques in varying degrees with great success. Honestly I just can't imagine ever being competitive enough to do the above stringently with my current dogs for the sake of improved performance. I am lucky that all 4 dogs I have competed with love training & have always given me all they have. I do suggest some of my agility students use some forms of deprivation but not to the level that I know they are used by some. Maybe if my next dog was not giving me what my current dogs do, I would consider some basic deprivation.

[The Spotted Devil]

I need to feed Zig quite a bit of food to keep weight on him - around 4 cups of dry per night or 2 chicken frames. The night before a trial I tend to give him half his dry food ration (i.e. 2 cups) and he never gets a chicken frame the night before as that's seriously high value. Not feeding at all would, I suspect, make him feel a bit anxious (as would human contact deprivation) and he works best when he is confident and relaxed. He also has a 'rest' day the day before - no runs in the forrest or training but he can do whatever he wants on our 3/4 acres. The fresher Ziggy is the more enthusiastic and focused he is. I do train with his dinner most nights, even for a minute or two and he doesn't get tasty treats at home......they are saved for high distraction environments.

I wouldn't exactly call him deprived, though ;)

[Aidan]

I have suggested to some clients that they fast their dog for up to 48 hours prior to a session with me. Food gets the fastest results (most reinforcers in a given period of time) and once a dog has learned to eat in a new environment they generally don't need much by way of establishing operations after that point so it's usually a one-off. I do know that the majority of dogs (in my groups) who don't eat have a loss of appetite due to stress so everything I can practically manage to reduce that stress is also done.

I've only had one dog who wouldn't take food but the owner did not fast her dog according to my instructions. Funnily enough she still made some (limited) progress, I put it down to habituation and possibly some work at home where the dog would eat.

[Red Fox]

Aidan, what would you do with a dog who vomits on an empty stomach? Would you still fast them prior to a training session?

[Aidan]

Aidan, what would you do with a dog who vomits on an empty stomach? Would you still fast them prior to a training session?

No. I would be suggesting a vet check though.

I should disclose that I only see reactive and aggressive dogs and that it is very rare to actually need to fast a dog beyond skipping the previous meal. I was just saying that 48 hours is the most I've ever suggested.

If you had a very reactive dog who could not tolerate an empty stomach it wouldn't be a major problem though, we'd find ways around that problem (two cases this last summer, health and diet issues).