A Question On Colours

[Dee_al]

This ones from a registered breeder who does show and stuff, so they don't breed for colour. Both parents have hip and elbow scores done and they are both registered and the pups will be too. We aren't looking for show quality at all, just as a pet and companion for Stanley.

Thanks for the explanation, will be very usefull!

[WreckitWhippet]

Blue to blue is breeding for colour as no breeder who comprehends or respects the breed standard would do it. Blue to blue is not breeding to improve on the existing dogs, it's breeding to create another fault.

[Purpley]

This ones from a registered breeder who does show and stuff, so they don't breed for colour. Both parents have hip and elbow scores done and they are both registered and the pups will be too. We aren't looking for show quality at all, just as a pet and companion for Stanley.

Thanks for the explanation, will be very usefull!

Have they done well in the show ring? I would be curious to see some results - maybe a prefix will help. Is there 'blue' in the prefix??

I am very skeptical of most breeders of blues. To me, you breed to improve your lines - it is very, very rare that you see a blue in the show ring and most don't even place as they have very poor conformation. I would seriously be doing alot more research on the how 'ethical' this breeder really is.

I realise you just want a pet - but the above still stands as far as I am concerned regardless of whether you want a pet or show puppy.

[stormie]

With regards to the breeding of blues in Staffys, I realise that lots are doing it for the $$ these days, but are there ethical breeders out there who are trying to produce quality blues that are worthy of being bred/shown?

[ellz]

With regards to the breeding of blues in Staffys, I realise that lots are doing it for the $$ these days, but are there ethical breeders out there who are trying to produce quality blues that are worthy of being bred/shown?

There are a couple who are trying, I would say that some of their blues are as good (if not better than) many BYB dogs of other colours (even if I don't particularly like them and would never register a blue that appeared in my breeding program). But the reality is that if a judge is going to judge TO THE STANDARD (as all should if they are worth their salt), a blue simply CANNOT win because it does not FIT the standard. The standard calls for "nose black". A blue Stafford cannot have a black nose.

Edited April 14, 2010 by ellz

[Turkey Trip]

I'm not an expert but I do see a lot of blues with brindle that comes through as they get older.

I guess if mum is blue brindle then its pretty likely

Our boy was solid blue but now has tiger stripes on his bum.

That photo is very interesting. Dilute "blue" dogs with the alleles d_d normally come with slate blue pigment (as in above photo) and the same slate/bluish tone to their eye colour. This photo shows a blue dog with normal brown eye colour. Is this always the case and unique to Staffordshire Bull Terriers?

[ozjen]

Mollie10 I believe Kerry's have a different gene that gives them the "blue" colour. They aren't dilutes like the staffords but it's a greying gene instead. I may be wrong though. Kerry's are born black and have black noses.

Thanks Lyndsay. Wheaties are born very dark too, but lighten up due to a brindle gene I believe

Still never seen a Kerry 'in the fur'

I saw my first Kerry 'in the fur' recently, it was only a youngster so was black and I didn't recognise it, beautiful dog though. That's interesting about the Weaties, we have one here doing Agility and at least one I know of in the show ring , again a lovely breed.

[Dee_al]

Umm.... He did tell me the prefix but I couldn't hear too well anyway. We might be goin to look this weekend so I'll ask again. I'll get all the details of them. The pups can't leave for a month or so anyway.

[Sandra777]

That photo is very interesting. Dilute "blue" dogs with the alleles d_d normally come with slate blue pigment (as in above photo) and the same slate/bluish tone to their eye colour. This photo shows a blue dog with normal brown eye colour. Is this always the case and unique to Staffordshire Bull Terriers?

Most of the blues I have seen have yellow-ish cast eye colour, some approaching a strange sort of fawn-yellow colour. The dog in that photo has considerably darker eyes than most, however for a SBT he has extremely red-toned eyes (which is not pretty on the black brindles ) assuming the eye colour is true in the photo. IME the ones with red-toned eyes tend to have close relations with light pigment throughout, brown/pale nails, indistinct/muddy sorts of coat colours.

[Sayly]

Mollie10 - Kerries are amazingly impressive! I love love love the look but have had little to do with them personality wise, except for a couple who came into work (I fell in love)!

[Staranais]

I always assumed that the reported greater incidence in skin disease in blue staffords was simply due to the fact that they tend to be bred by breeders who care less for health, and more for colour. If you look at the SBT websites on DOL, some of the blue-only breeders are really dodgy looking. Registered unfortunately doesn't automatically equate to knowledgeable or ethical.

I guess an increased incidence of skin issues could be a direct consequence of the skin colour though?

Someone could research it, would be reasonably easy to do, and would make quite a cool project. If the skin troubles are a direct consequence of skin colour, then even blues that pop up in non-blue litters will have a higher incidence of skin disease. If it's just due to poor breeding, then blues from non-blue parents would have the same incidence of skin disease as their non-blue litter mates.

Not me though, I'm busy.

[zayda_asher]

I always assumed that the reported greater incidence in skin disease in blue staffords was simply due to the fact that they tend to be bred by breeders who care less for health, and more for colour.

I did research it seeing as I have a blue brindle with severe allergies. At first I thought it did have to do with the dilution, now I agree with your premise above. There are lots of AmStaffs and SBTs with allergies, regardless of colour, and breeders need to be aware of the genetic heritability that contributes to allergies. The on-breeding of allergic dogs, even mild ones who "only itch a little now and then", contributes more to the allergic population than the colour of the dog.

I've also done a lot of searching on Colour Dilute Alopecia, and haven't been able to find any mention of it in AmStaffs. Which doesn't mean that it hasn't happened, but may not be common at all. Not sure about SBTs though, again I didn't come across anything when looking though.

[Sandra777]

I always assumed that the reported greater incidence in skin disease in blue staffords was simply due to the fact that they tend to be bred by breeders who care less for health, and more for colour.

I'd tend to agree with this as being a major factor. Dilute Alopecia certainly does exist though. Once you get "allergies and itchies" in a line there's not much to be done except ditch it and go elsewhere - which won't happen of course if the breeder is only breeding for colour or just to sell puppies.

Badly bred non blue Staffords are also prone to skin issues, so much so that a lot of vets believe "Staffords have skin issues" and try to sell my puppy buyers this line (along with the death in a bag out front of course).

Sometimes a carefully bred ones do too, nothing in life works perfectly

[Staranais]

I always assumed that the reported greater incidence in skin disease in blue staffords was simply due to the fact that they tend to be bred by breeders who care less for health, and more for colour.

I did research it seeing as I have a blue brindle with severe allergies. At first I thought it did have to do with the dilution, now I agree with your premise above. There are lots of AmStaffs and SBTs with allergies, regardless of colour, and breeders need to be aware of the genetic heritability that contributes to allergies. The on-breeding of allergic dogs, even mild ones who "only itch a little now and then", contributes more to the allergic population than the colour of the dog.

I've also done a lot of searching on Colour Dilute Alopecia, and haven't been able to find any mention of it in AmStaffs. Which doesn't mean that it hasn't happened, but may not be common at all. Not sure about SBTs though, again I didn't come across anything when looking though.

Yes, many allergies definitely have a genetic component (in fact, if I recall my notes right, I think atopy has a genetic component by definition? Will need to read my dermatology notes again to see I'm not just making that up.)

I suspect you're very right in that irresponsible breeding practices contribute strongly to staffords getting the itchies. But I'd still love to see the study done, to see if the dilution (in and of itself) also contributes to itchies. Perhaps the blue staffies are doubly cursed - often badly bred, and then have a dilute gene on top of that? My inner geneticist wants answers!

[zayda_asher]

Yes, many allergies definitely have a genetic component (in fact, if I recall my notes right, I think atopy has a genetic component by definition? Will need to read my dermatology notes again to see I'm not just making that up.)

Yes, many of the definitions I've seen for atopy do state that... If you find a good ref in your stuff for it, let me know... I'm compiling info on it atm to present to the AmStaff community - every bit helps!

I suspect you're very right in that irresponsible breeding practices contribute strongly to staffords getting the itchies. But I'd still love to see the study done, to see if the dilution (in and of itself) also contributes to itchies. Perhaps the blue staffies are doubly cursed - often badly bred, and then have a dilute gene on top of that? My inner geneticist wants answers!

Oh yeah, a proper study would be excellent... I'd love to see that too!! Would be very interesting to know!! I'd also love to see more research in the genetics of allergies in dogs... ETA: I believe there is one being done in Aus atm on Westies, maybe it was in NSW?

Edited April 14, 2010 by zayda_asher

[sas]

Colour dilution alopecia.

Can happen in other breeds as well (like Kelpies, Dobies)

Doesn't happen in Danes.... We have skin problems across the board But in all seriousness, our Harlequin lines seen to be more affected and they're pretty much related to one another somewhere along the lines.

Edited April 15, 2010 by sas

[sas]

Do Kerry Blue terriers have similar skin issues?

Just curious.

Mollie

They can be prone to cysts.

Infact there are a number of blue breeds that skin isnt an issue but it is known in staffies to be a major issue

Then it must be due to another reason apart from the dilute reason.

[sas]

I always assumed that the reported greater incidence in skin disease in blue staffords was simply due to the fact that they tend to be bred by breeders who care less for health, and more for colour.

I did research it seeing as I have a blue brindle with severe allergies. At first I thought it did have to do with the dilution, now I agree with your premise above. There are lots of AmStaffs and SBTs with allergies, regardless of colour, and breeders need to be aware of the genetic heritability that contributes to allergies. The on-breeding of allergic dogs, even mild ones who "only itch a little now and then", contributes more to the allergic population than the colour of the dog.

I've also done a lot of searching on Colour Dilute Alopecia, and haven't been able to find any mention of it in AmStaffs. Which doesn't mean that it hasn't happened, but may not be common at all. Not sure about SBTs though, again I didn't come across anything when looking though.

[Quickasyoucan]

Sort of off topic but on the topic of allergies I thought I read somewhere that terriers in general can be prone to skin issues?

That would be kind of big and across the board though West Highland Whites do immediately spring to mind as I have met several with terrible cases of the itchies.

Back on topic we have had some itchies issus with my crossbreed who has some stafford in him and he is black, well black with a brownish tinge, not brindle (he also has border collie in him). Diet seems to have sorted him out though and he is 100% better than he was as a youngster.

[Dee_al]

He's red staffy is well bred but has a skin problem, no one can work out what it is though....