Staranais Posted April 12, 2010 Share Posted April 12, 2010 (edited) So, yesterday my lovely 11 month old malinois girl was diagnosed with OCD in both shoulders. We're gutted - we were really careful with her exercise, with not letting her jump anything, with what we were feeding, with how fast we grew her, we gave her glucosamine and fish oil as she was growing, etc. The breeder did her parents' hips and elbows, and they were all good, although didn't radiograph shoulders (as is normal, I think). I've been thinking back, and just can't think what we could have done differently. But anyway, we've got a team of lovely specialists on board to help us at my vet school, and I'm busy applying for big big loans to help with the potential surgeries ahead of us. What I'm here to ask is, has anyone had any success with alternative therapies to help with the healing of these lesions? She's already being stuffed full of glucosamine, MSM, fish oil, until she practically rattles. Edited April 12, 2010 by Staranais Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted April 12, 2010 Share Posted April 12, 2010 No advice, just wanted to say what shite luck. Hope all goes well with her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted April 12, 2010 Share Posted April 12, 2010 ouch I'm sorry ..and hope she sails thru the surgeries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staranais Posted April 12, 2010 Author Share Posted April 12, 2010 Thanks folks. We're just all kind of in shock about it at the moment! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stolzseinrotts Posted April 13, 2010 Share Posted April 13, 2010 I am sorry to hear the bad news. Good luck with your girl. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandgrubber Posted April 13, 2010 Share Posted April 13, 2010 (edited) I have nothing constructive to add, other than loads of sympathy. No helpful advice. My mother had a lovely dog whose 'Achilles heel' was arthritis of the paw. I do sometime worry that we place too much emphasis on hips and elbows and pay to little attention to the whole dog. Edited April 13, 2010 by sandgrubber Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted April 13, 2010 Share Posted April 13, 2010 (edited) Oh Star ..... that's crap news and I really felt a pit at the bottom of my stomach when I read your OP. For all the great work you did with Monster (RIP fella) and the very careful training and upbringing of your mal girl, you (nor she) deserves to have to deal with these issues. Not that any dog should. I have nothing to offer in the way of knowledge or experience, as I don't have any in this respect. For what it is worth, I googled, though, and came up with a link entitled New Surgical Treatments for Osteochondritis Dissecans ... Veterinary Clinics of North America . It's one of those science extracts though and I don't have an account to be able to source it, but you might be able to, given your resources? I don't know if it would come up with anything that you don't know about already, and perhaps the treatments prescribed in the article aren't so "new" anymore (I don't know how old the article is). It seems it relates to "Equine" rather than dogs, but you never know .... the info might be useful to some degree? My first thought though was of that person/Vet who registered with DOL and reported about new stem cell therapy that could help dogs with HD and OCD. It was ages ago and I can't recall which clinic it was nor the DOL (or real) name of the author. I'm pretty sure they were based in Sydney AUS, and were pretty excited by their new treatments, with I believe some successes under their belt. I'm not sure if they still do it ..... I have a vague recollection that for some reason or other (don't know if it was a bureaucratic reason or some other) this form of treatment might have been temporarily halted. I don't know if this treatment would be relevant to your girl, but for you to perhaps look into it maybe there are other DOLers here with a better memory than mine (I'm astounded at times at how far reaching some people can recall to, and the details that they can remember) would be able to point in the right direction so that the relevant DOL thread can be found. I really hope that nurture might help to see your girl through this and that it having been detected at her young age that there might be something that can be done to see her to the best she can be. My thoughts are with you and your girl and I do wish you both all the best and hoping the condition she has might at least only serve to be a mild case that does not prevent her from working with you in your SAR work and all the other activities you have planned for her. :D ETA: Ooh ooh!! I found at least the second thread this person I speak of, wrote : Regeneus Stem Cell Therapy for Arthritis Sorry, Star .... The treatment seems to relate to arthritis so probably not relevant to you :p. Edited April 13, 2010 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staranais Posted April 13, 2010 Author Share Posted April 13, 2010 Thanks, Erny. Yup, I'm pretty gutted. And heartbroken! I've got the surgical angle pretty much covered - the benefit of being at vet school, I guess, I get all the good specialists on my case! We're giving her 3 weeks, then proceeding to surgery if she hasn't improved (and possibly even if she has). Just wondering if anyone had any success with chiro, acupuncture, supplements, etc. It's a long shot, I know! But every little bit helps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staranais Posted April 14, 2010 Author Share Posted April 14, 2010 *bump* just in case Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoL Posted April 14, 2010 Share Posted April 14, 2010 I'm sorry to hear this. Rotten luck for such a young girl. Can I ask what the surgical procedure entails and what the long term ramifications are? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staranais Posted April 14, 2010 Author Share Posted April 14, 2010 (edited) I'm sorry to hear this. Rotten luck for such a young girl. Can I ask what the surgical procedure entails and what the long term ramifications are? Basically it involves opening the shoulder up and removing any bits of cartilage floating around, removing any cartilage flaps & dead bits of tissue, and smoothing it all down. The choices are by arthroscope (faster recovery, but a little more $$$, and they occasionally miss bits), or opening the shoulder joint right up. I'll be doing a whole lot more research before we decide when to go ahead & which option to pick, believe me! Prognosis is around 90% return to full function after surgery, but 10% of dogs have some degree of permanent lameness even after surgery. There is also an increased risk of arthritis (DJD) as the dog ages, although not a certainty. Cost, between $1400 and $1800 per shoulder (I think it might be a little more than that for members of the public though - I get a student discount, and I'll be baking the surgeons lots of cookies). Edited April 14, 2010 by Staranais Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ashka1 Posted April 14, 2010 Share Posted April 14, 2010 I am so sorry to hear your news. I have had experience with 2 dogs with OCD , one dog is mine and one a close friends. Niether was a good outcome so sorry if this is not a positive story. I went for surgery, one shoulder, at 4 months of age and unfortunately dispite all the correct care, crating and follow up, physio etc the surgery was not successful. He still has problems and is on anti inflamatories and many oher supliments, he is nearly 4 now though you would think he was 10 as he is arthritic and needs medication to be pain free. My friends dog was also 4 months, different breed and both shoulders. He did not do well from surgery and went over the rainbow bridge, it was devistating! I do know a person who has been breeding for 50 years who crates dogs with suspected OCD for months with only toilet breaks on lead and she seems to get them fine in the long term. My boy is on Ester C, Glucosimine, Condroltin, MSM , fish oil and Mobic, I find all these help, could be worth a try with crating but not a short term fix unfortunately. Best of luck, my heart goes out to you. You have a long road ahead Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dancinbcs Posted April 14, 2010 Share Posted April 14, 2010 I have only known of a couple of cases of shoulder OCD and both recovered fine after surgery. They only had one shoulder affected though and both had sustained an injury before the OCD was diagnosed at around 4-5 months. Crating for 6 weeks after surgery was the biggest headache but the final outcome was good. Eleven months is rather old for a diagnosis of OCD. I have only ever heard of it in dogs under 7 or 8 months. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staranais Posted April 14, 2010 Author Share Posted April 14, 2010 I have only known of a couple of cases of shoulder OCD and both recovered fine after surgery. They only had one shoulder affected though and both had sustained an injury before the OCD was diagnosed at around 4-5 months. Crating for 6 weeks after surgery was the biggest headache but the final outcome was good. Eleven months is rather old for a diagnosis of OCD. I have only ever heard of it in dogs under 7 or 8 months. She had a slight left hand fore limp at 4 - 5 months old, but it improved greatly with rest, and only flared up again last week. Being a paranoid dog owner I did take her to the vet back then, but we only shot elbow rads, which of course were perfect. Looking back, I really wish we'd also shot shoulder films, and possibly got a diagnosis much earlier! But it's very hard to tell an elbow from a shoulder limp by observation & palpation, and they were pretty convinced it was an elbow issue she was having, so that's why we only took the elbow shots (note to myself in future - always, always take radiographs of both joints when client's dogs come in with a shoulder or elbow issue!) She only has clinical signs in one shoulder (left hand), although has radiographic changes in both, so we'll probably just operate on the limpy one and wait to see what to do with the other. Ashka, thanks for your post too - I'm sorry to hear what a nasty time your friends had! Fingers crossed everyone that my girl works out better. I'm hoping to get her well enough recovered that she can work (track) for me still. Dogsport may be out now, unless we're really lucky. She's currently on fish body oil (lots of it), MSM, glucosamine, and chondroitin. We'll probably dabble with chiro after surgery, not sure how much help it will do, but hey, it will make me feel better. Any other suggestions very welcome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staff'n'Toller Posted April 18, 2010 Share Posted April 18, 2010 Which State are you in? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted April 18, 2010 Share Posted April 18, 2010 SnT - Star lives in New Zealand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staff'n'Toller Posted April 18, 2010 Share Posted April 18, 2010 SnT - Star lives in New Zealand. Ah ok, I knew (?she) had changed location but couldn't remember ever reading about the UK or US or Europe so wasn't sure. Do they have Physio connected with the Vet School? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staranais Posted April 18, 2010 Author Share Posted April 18, 2010 (edited) SnT - Star lives in New Zealand. Ah ok, I knew (?she) had changed location but couldn't remember ever reading about the UK or US or Europe so wasn't sure. Do they have Physio connected with the Vet School? Not sure - can find out though, or find a physio elsewhere. Have you guys had success using some type of physio before/after/instead of surgery? ETA, and yes, I'm a girl! Edited April 18, 2010 by Staranais Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staff'n'Toller Posted April 18, 2010 Share Posted April 18, 2010 Yeah we do see a big difference in rehab post surgery with Physio and either controlled warm water swimming or underwater treadmill. Things like gentle muscle stretching, passive range of motion, hot/cold packs. Kimjm would be the person to PM about appropriate practices for shoulder surgery as some techniques work better than others. I'm not sure about Physio instead of surgery as I'm not up with the latest news - need to send at least one of my Vets to the next seminar!! Most of the specialist surgeons here (well the bigger centres anyway) have a Physio and underwater treadmill attached to their centres in Vic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staranais Posted April 18, 2010 Author Share Posted April 18, 2010 Brilliant thanks. Think we only have underwater treadmill in Auckland, so a little far for us to commute, but will PM Kimjm about physio. Thanks for the lead! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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