Pack Leader

[Odin-Genie]

Not strictly related to OP's issue, but I'm curious why no one suggests training the dogs to not be food aggressive. Is that something that can't be done once food aggression sets in?

I feed my two dogs together, always done so. Their bowls are usually about a feet apart. They also have raw bones sitting in the same room on their mats and know not to go to the other dog's mat for a lick till both are finished.

[poodlefan]

Not strictly related to OP's issue, but I'm curious why no one suggests training the dogs to not be food aggressive. Is that something that can't be done once food aggression sets in?

I feed my two dogs together, always done so. Their bowls are usually about a feet apart. They also have raw bones sitting in the same room on their mats and know not to go to the other dog's mat for a lick till both are finished.

I can only speak for myself but I'd leave any training recommendations for the professional person folk recommended be consulted. Most folk have given management strategies only.

There are a lot of trainers who think that it is nigh on impossible to extinguish resource guarding in dogs. All that leaves is de-escalation and management.

My guess is that neither of your dogs are strongly motivated to resource guard. Establishing clear boundaries of acceptable behaviour with regard to food does help but personally I think every dog should have some private space to eat, whether they resource guard or not.

My dogs are all fed in the one immediate area but I do not leave them unsupervised. They have very different rates of consumption!

Edited April 13, 2010 by poodlefan

[Odin-Genie]

My dogs are all fed in the one immediate area but I do not leave them unsupervised. They have very different rates of consumption!

I don't leave my dogs unsupervised either while they are eating. I wouldn't take that risk. However, they've never had even a minor aggression either over food or toys or anything else. I find that really convenient since we take our dogs out a lot, to friends' places, cafes etc and it's good to be able to feed them and have them around food without much stress.

As for the OP's post, I can't tell who is the dominant one. Neither of them seem to be dominating.

[Monah]

Not strictly related to OP's issue, but I'm curious why no one suggests training the dogs to not be food aggressive. Is that something that can't be done once food aggression sets in?

I feed my two dogs together, always done so. Their bowls are usually about a feet apart. They also have raw bones sitting in the same room on their mats and know not to go to the other dog's mat for a lick till both are finished.

Hi, I think until you have a resource 'guarder' it's not something easily understood. I've only ever had one, which is why it was a bit of a surprise, even though I've always had 3 or 4 dogs at once. I manage mine, and have trained her to a point where she is very very good and will not interfere with my other animals re food etc. but she has 'guarded' food, her bed, toys, people, the car etc etc. in the past and I would never trust her, no matter how much training there was. I can almost 'feel' her sometimes thinking, GET OUT! so I can take that off of her!!(other dog)

This is why a professional behaviourist is the way to go. It is a touchy situation. I also agree that these two dogs may not be real resource guarders, but better to nip things in the bud now.xxx

[Gilypoo]

I think you have hit it on the head.... My GSD seems by what everyone is saying that she is a resource guarder....

Sometimes if I am giving her a cuddle then the GD will come up and want one aswell the GSD will then growl... She also does it when I am hanging out the washing. I normally give her a stern" uh" and then give the GD a cuddle in front of her... Is this the right thing to do???

I REALLY do need to see a behavourist.... Any one know of a local Bunbury person??

Now that people written things about her I can actually see what she is doing if that makes sense

[poodlefan]

I think you have hit it on the head.... My GSD seems by what everyone is saying that she is a resource guarder....

Sometimes if I am giving her a cuddle then the GD will come up and want one aswell the GSD will then growl... She also does it when I am hanging out the washing. I normally give her a stern" uh" and then give the GD a cuddle in front of her... Is this the right thing to do???

I REALLY do need to see a behavourist.... Any one know of a local Bunbury person??

Now that people written things about her I can actually see what she is doing if that makes sense

How much formal obedience training have you done with these dogs GP? The reason I ask is that its a great method of teaching dogs that rewards come from focus and effort that YOU direct. It also gives dogs the one on one attention most enjoy.

How much exercise do they get on a daily basis?

If the GD approaches and the GSD reacts, I'd be terminating the contact with the GSD, not letting her stay close. She'll find it very difficult to resource guard you if you don't cooperate with her plans. She's warning the other dog. If you encourage the GD to ignore that warning, then she may take it into her own paws to dish out the discipline for failing to heed it. You really don't want to be in the middle if its game on.

You've already tried the stern "uh" approach with food... look how that turned out.

I would put distance between myself and the guarding dog when this occurs. This is not training but de-escalating the situation.

Edited April 13, 2010 by poodlefan

[Greytmate]

What age do dogs normally sort out leader?

From baby puppies dogs play to sort out how far they can go with claiming resources and not getting hurt. As they reach physical maturity these may become more serious. Not sorting out a leader as such, but working out how far they will go in a particular circumstance to get what they want. Once a dog reaches emotional maturity at about 3 or 4 years of age a dog may even be prepared to fatally injure another dog if it thinks the fight will be worthwhile to get what it wants. By then it will be confident in its own ability and will have sussed out how far other dogs and people it lives with are prepared to go as well.

Like people, dogs can have moods and some days may be more motivated than others, and some days the dog may not feel well.

Should we have picked one for them from an earlier age?

No. It is entirely up to the dog how much it wants to be in control of any situation or resource. You train the dog that some things are worth doing as they bring benefit, and some things are not worth repeating, as they bring an unpleasant consequence or no consequence.

The problem with food in particular is that the behaviour may be self-rewarding. A verbal reprimand from you is not a deterrent if the food is desirable enough. The food is the reward for fighting. There is also the danger that the dog that wants the food mistakes your reprimand, and just interprets it as you being upset, which might even escalate the fight.

So you do need to see a trainer to make sure your signals are being interpreted correctly by the dog, and be shown what to do so that they are clear to the dogs in future.

And you need to physically separate the dogs while eating, now that the GD knows how easy it is to get the food off the GSD. Who knows how the GSD will react next time?

Should we have picked one for them from an earlier age?

No.

If they are ment to sort it out them self, when do I/ if I do step into seperate the fight?

A fight only happens when it can't be sorted out peacefully (or if the dog has a brain problem or physical problem). You would attempt to stop any fighting. You manage and train the dogs to prevent fights happening at all.

Dogs communicate with us and with each other with subtle body language, and dogs living in harmony never need to give more than a polite ' eye warning' to say "This is mine, back off".

As you can imagine it is hard to see them fight but I know they are pack animals and it is in there instint to establish a hierachy... There is no question that I am the leader then my OH......

Dog behaviourists are now thinking that heirachy is very fluid and not fixed. Rather than reading up on theory, especially outdated theory, get a professional in to help your specific situation.

I know GSD are a dominent breed and I know the GD could do some REAL damage because of her size...

So HELP please, and no flaming... I wont lie, I am clueless and it scared the BEJEUSES out of me..

As others have said, see a behaviourist. Get both dogs checked over by a vet first for any physical problem. And keep those dogs properly separated by walls or crates when eating.

[Gilypoo]

How much formal obedience training have you done with these dogs GP? The reason I ask is that its a great method of teaching dogs that rewards come from focus and effort that YOU direct. It also gives dogs the one on one attention most enjoy.

We have only just started.. We had our 1st lesson on Sunday. I am handling the GD and my mum is doing the GSD, we did it this way because the GSD was getting very protective of me. Which I now know is the resource thing....A light bulb just clicked in my head .... I really need to get my girl some help.

[sandgrubber]

I have an all girls pack of six Labs, one desexed, two pups, three brood bitches. They have never had a minor, much less a major skirmish. They seem to sort pecking order out by who pees on top of who's pee and who scratches the most furiously after marking. I'm not advocating anything. Just saying dogs are quite variable, even within a breed, and when you have to speyed girls of different breeds, lots of things could happen. I agree with others .. . advice from an experienced person would be good. Given that 'behaviourist' is something anyone can call themself, I'd say pick and choose and before calling the person out, sound them out as per the situation on hand.

Two large dogs, same gender, same age. It was always going to be a recipe for potential conflict and one folk here would have advised against.

The short answer is that they may never "sort it out" permanently. That leaves you to manage all possible triggers for inter-dog aggression with food (as you've just found out) being an obvious one.

Good idea to get professional help but it may never resolve the situation permanently. They may be rivals for resources for the rest of their lives. If things start to escalate now that they are maturing, you may have to consider rehoming one of them. Hopefully it won't come to that.

All dogs, regardless of pack status may defend resources. Best to bear that in mind. The advice about keeping them separated with food, bones etc is very wise.

I would be taking all steps to ensure that you are not considered a 'resource' by either of them.

[poodlefan]

How much formal obedience training have you done with these dogs GP? The reason I ask is that its a great method of teaching dogs that rewards come from focus and effort that YOU direct. It also gives dogs the one on one attention most enjoy.

We have only just started.. We had our 1st lesson on Sunday. I am handling the GD and my mum is doing the GSD, we did it this way because the GSD was getting very protective of me. Which I now know is the resource thing....A light bulb just clicked in my head :D .... I really need to get my girl some help.

While you source someone suitable, have a look here at the triangle of tempation (TOT) and Nothing in life is free (NILIF) programs pinned at the top of the training thread. Both would be safe to implement on your girls.

How much exercise do they get?

[sas]

I sound OT, and I am a worry wort, but better safe than sorry. DOgs this size can do a lot of damage to each other, or god forbid, cause a fatality :D

Whoooa Nelly! Goodness....way to over react!

It was a tiff over food, big deal....all you serve to do by placing unnccessary stress on the owner is make them more anxious around their dogs which could cause the problem to esculate further.

I'm not saying a tiff isn't serious...but a fatality :p

My advice is to feed them seperately for the moment until you can have a Behaviourist come and have a visit with you. My personal belief if that dogs should be able to eat in peace without competition for their food so I always feed seperately.

I also believe that you can not 'pick' which Canine you want to be top dog over the other and by trying to do you can create problems.

I'd go ahead and take the Behaviourists advice about how to lead your pack but right now, I'd just take a deep breath and chill

[Gilypoo]

How much formal obedience training have you done with these dogs GP? The reason I ask is that its a great method of teaching dogs that rewards come from focus and effort that YOU direct. It also gives dogs the one on one attention most enjoy.

We have only just started.. We had our 1st lesson on Sunday. I am handling the GD and my mum is doing the GSD, we did it this way because the GSD was getting very protective of me. Which I now know is the resource thing....A light bulb just clicked in my head :D .... I really need to get my girl some help.

While you source someone suitable, have a look here at the triangle of tempation (TOT) and Nothing in life is free (NILIF) programs pinned at the top of the training thread. Both would be safe to implement on your girls.

How much exercise do they get?

I try and take them 5 days a week for about 30-45min...it usually averages out to 4 days a week plus obedience training on sundays

[justin19801]

Two identical gendered dogs, no matter what the age, is a potential disaster. Under no circumstances let them sort it out themselves unless you are prepared to have one lose an eye, tongue, ear etc. The GD appears from what you said to be the dominant one so I would feed them together with the GD eating first, then the GSD, after you had eaten a biscuit.

These dogs need to see you as pack leader and you will need to exercise them daily as a tired dog is a happy dog. Being so large you may have to take them for extended bike rides one at a time. My bitches will still fight if allowed to do so unsupervised while our boy looks on in amusement (typical :D ). IMO they can never be left alone together unsupervised. Do take them to dog obedience. They may seem best of friends at times, and they probably are, but no dominant animal will fight over everything, just the important stuff or they would risk injury.

If you can afford $300 per hour from someone with dubious qualifications then do so. Otherwise people at dog obedience may be able to help. There are also good internet sites with plenty of info, but requires the right diagnosis.

Please let us know what you did and how you got on.

[Gilypoo]

Two identical gendered dogs, no matter what the age, is a potential disaster. Under no circumstances let them sort it out themselves unless you are prepared to have one lose an eye, tongue, ear etc. The GD appears from what you said to be the dominant one so I would feed them together with the GD eating first, then the GSD, after you had eaten a biscuit.

These dogs need to see you as pack leader and you will need to exercise them daily as a tired dog is a happy dog. Being so large you may have to take them for extended bike rides one at a time. My bitches will still fight if allowed to do so unsupervised while our boy looks on in amusement (typical :p ). IMO they can never be left alone together unsupervised. Do take them to dog obedience. They may seem best of friends at times, and they probably are, but no dominant animal will fight over everything, just the important stuff or they would risk injury.

If you can afford $300 per hour from someone with dubious qualifications then do so. Otherwise people at dog obedience may be able to help. There are also good internet sites with plenty of info, but requires the right diagnosis.

Please let us know what you did and how you got on.

I agree with almost everything that you say. I really think the GSD is the dominent one and it just happened that the GD lashed out 1st ....The GSD is very protective of me in general (like I said about the washing etc) the Dane is still more of a puppy and "teases" the GSD but only playing (what it looks like to me) I could be completly wrong mind you. The Dane just seems more laid back and takes things in her stride more then the GSD....But I could be looking at it all wrong.

They have an appointment next week at the vets to get checked out, then I will sort out the Behavourist... As the Dane is still growing im not comfortable taking her on bike rides as her bones are still very soft... She gets tired easily and after 45 min is lagging behind me (im not a fast walker at the best of times) :D

Thanks for your advise thou.. Will def keep everyone updated on how we go...

[Little Gifts]

Through circumstance we ended up with 3 rescue dogs - 10 week female staffy, 6 year old female husky/shepherd cross and a 14 year old desexed female staffy.

When the youngest was about 6 months of age the fights started. Over food, attention, toys. My vet advised it was the youngest coming into sexual maturity so we got her desexed. We still had some terrible fights and the old girl was the worst, I guess trying to keep her place in the pack. We would get the dogs apart and she would go for it again not wanting to lose a fight. It was just horrible to experience and I have also been bitten badly on my digits while trying to seperate the two staffies. The husky/shepherd normally withdrew herself and her long fur saved her from any serious wounds, but the other two had several vet visits.

So we got in a dog whisperer for $200 (amichien bonding). Best money we ever spent! We were taught to think like dog packs. Now each dog looks to us as the alphas and not each other. They were more confident and less stressed straight away. We have reinforced the food comes and can be withdrawn from us so there is no point fighting between themselves when we control it. We did this token eating of their food before giving it to them. We still do it from time to time to remind them we are the alphas and they eat when we tell them they will eat (as it would be in a wild pack). The other big thing we did was to give our dog pack roles and to reinforce them. Even though the roles might seem silly they support each dogs personality so in fact we are telling the dogs what is ok by praising those behaviours and ignoring what isn't. As an example the youngest is the inquisitive/investigator and the husky is the guard dog, while the old dog is the comforter. So if all 3 bark to alert us of danger only the husky is rewarded. If the young one is being naughty she is removed from a negative situation but if she is being inquisitive for the rest of the pack's benefit then she is rewarded. As an example she found and killed a snake in the house and we all made a huge deal of it. When she stalks and kills pillows or her special toys she quickly learns that we don't approve. We do give her things specifically to destroy (because she has that need) and she knows the difference.

Our dogs would still be considered spoilt (sleep on the bed etc) but we have more structure around everything and obviously more control. Plus happier dogs. So basically your dogs are all at the bottom of the pack and you are on top. It is up to you as pack leader to enforce that, not let them sort it out themselves. They should worship the ground you walk on and look to you for everything - not to themselves.

[megan_]

Two identical gendered dogs, no matter what the age, is a potential disaster. Under no circumstances let them sort it out themselves unless you are prepared to have one lose an eye, tongue, ear etc. The GD appears from what you said to be the dominant one so I would feed them together with the GD eating first, then the GSD, after you had eaten a biscuit.

These dogs need to see you as pack leader and you will need to exercise them daily as a tired dog is a happy dog. Being so large you may have to take them for extended bike rides one at a time. My bitches will still fight if allowed to do so unsupervised while our boy looks on in amusement (typical :D ). IMO they can never be left alone together unsupervised. Do take them to dog obedience. They may seem best of friends at times, and they probably are, but no dominant animal will fight over everything, just the important stuff or they would risk injury.

If you can afford $300 per hour from someone with dubious qualifications then do so. Otherwise people at dog obedience may be able to help. There are also good internet sites with plenty of info, but requires the right diagnosis.

Please let us know what you did and how you got on.

A long bike ride for a young GIANT breed?

Googling as a way to diagnose and treat issues?

A trained behaviourist is a waste of money?

You've managed to sus out who is the dominant dog via a bried description on the internet? By a self-confessed newbie who may be reading the situation incorrectly?

To the OP - yes, there are some behaviourists who dispense silly advice. Anyone can call themselves a behaviourist. There are many that are worth their weight in gold.

I have dealt with a dog with severe, severe fear and the behaviourist that I saw has helped change her life for good. I paid a lot less than $300, and I got a 2 hour consult and unlimited email support. I have used this support over and over again and I've always recieved detailed feedback, and even a follow-up phone call to explain complex advice. It is the best money I have spent in a long time. I can't stress this enough. My girl has moved from being a broken spirit who couldn't step outside of our house to being a happy, outgoing little girl who can't wait to go on her walk (and she loose lead walks perfectly). Again, best damn money I've spent.

Please seek professional help. Don't waste your time trying to fuddle through it by yourself only to have them fighting more and for the behaviour to become ingrained. Don't just use google or the Yellow Pages to find someone though. Follow the recommendations here. Ring the person and ask about their methods. If they only have one methdo give them a miss, if they dismiss your concerns skip them too.

[poodlefan]

So we got in a dog whisperer for $200 (amichien bonding). Best money we ever spent! We were taught to think like dog packs. Now each dog looks to us as the alphas and not each other. They were more confident and less stressed straight away. We have reinforced the food comes and can be withdrawn from us so there is no point fighting between themselves when we control it. We did this token eating of their food before giving it to them. We still do it from time to time to remind them we are the alphas and they eat when we tell them they will eat (as it would be in a wild pack). The other big thing we did was to give our dog pack roles and to reinforce them. Even though the roles might seem silly they support each dogs personality so in fact we are telling the dogs what is ok by praising those behaviours and ignoring what isn't. As an example the youngest is the inquisitive/investigator and the husky is the guard dog, while the old dog is the comforter. So if all 3 bark to alert us of danger only the husky is rewarded. If the young one is being naughty she is removed from a negative situation but if she is being inquisitive for the rest of the pack's benefit then she is rewarded. As an example she found and killed a snake in the house and we all made a huge deal of it. When she stalks and kills pillows or her special toys she quickly learns that we don't approve. We do give her things specifically to destroy (because she has that need) and she knows the difference.

I'm glad this worked for you PS but there are a lot of trainers and behaviouralists that would disagree with the reasoning behind some of it. Lesser ranked dogs still fight over resources for a start.

What is great is that YOU decided to take a leadership role and to enforce boundaries of behaviour.

And sorry, but no amount of "bonding" would induce me to eat some of my dog's meals before handing them over :D :p

Edited April 13, 2010 by poodlefan

[Gilypoo]

And sorry, but no amount of "bonding" would induce me to eat some of my dog's meals before handing them over :p

I love them both dearly but the dogs can have there smelly food..Raw mince / chicken necks and eggs (not to mention other thing) dont really appeal to me... :D

[poodlefan]

And sorry, but no amount of "bonding" would induce me to eat some of my dog's meals before handing them over :p

I love them both dearly but the dogs can have there smelly food..Raw mince / chicken necks and eggs (not to mention other thing) dont really appeal to me... :D

It was the raw offal I was thinking of.

[Gilypoo]

And sorry, but no amount of "bonding" would induce me to eat some of my dog's meals before handing them over :p

I love them both dearly but the dogs can have there smelly food..Raw mince / chicken necks and eggs (not to mention other thing) dont really appeal to me... :D

It was the raw offal I was thinking of.

YUMMY