Gilypoo Posted April 12, 2010 Share Posted April 12, 2010 As many of you will probably know already, I have a 13 month old GSD and a 13 month old Great Dane both female... Both were born on the same day and both are purebreed. We got the GSD 5 days before the dane and both were 8 weeks old.. I have a few questions but first a bit of back ground info.... The girls have never really sorted out the leader / dominent one of the 2. Yes they have had a few semi serious fights but nothing compared to tonight. As they were so young (6months ) the last time a fight happened we just put it down to playing puppies.. Tonight was another story.. I feed the girls in the usual way. We HAVENT pick a leader our self as I wasnt sure that I was ment to... Anyway. I fed the GSD 1st as she sat 1st (this is the usual way we decide who gets feed first) then I feed the GD... I went inside to do something, then I noticed the GSD had walked away from her tea... the GD was still eating.... As we are having trouble keeping weight on the GSD I looked into her food bowl and shook it to see f I could entice her to eat some more.. She came back and started smelling it.. At this stage the GD came over and tried to eat it... the GSD started growling so I made my usual "UH" noise when someone is doing something wrong and stepped in between them to push the GD aside and stop the GSD from growling the next thing that happened was the GD lunged at the GSD and it was on... both Snarling, biting to hurt and a full on attacking each other... I managed to seperate them (which I now know was a silly thing as I could of got hurt but it was a natural instinct)... The GSD walked away limping and crying and the GD continued eating her own food... I was quite upset so I left and got the OH to sort them out... Sooo.....My questions are: What age do dogs normally sort out leader? Should we have picked one for them from an earlier age? If they are ment to sort it out them self, when do I/ if I do step into seperate the fight? As you can imagine it is hard to see them fight but I know they are pack animals and it is in there instint to establish a hierachy... There is no question that I am the leader then my OH...... I know GSD are a dominent breed and I know the GD could do some REAL damage because of her size... So HELP please, and no flaming... I wont lie, I am clueless and it scared the BEJEUSES out of me.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shmoo Posted April 12, 2010 Share Posted April 12, 2010 What makes you think food aggression is linked to a hierachy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danois Posted April 12, 2010 Share Posted April 12, 2010 No advice on the specific questions Gilypoo other than to start feeding them away from each other (ie in crates or 1 inside and 1 out) to minimise risk of a repeat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gilypoo Posted April 12, 2010 Author Share Posted April 12, 2010 I dont really think that it is linked, just that the 1st "serious" fight that they have had was when I feed them.. As I said im clueless... Its never happened before? Do you think it may be something different? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmolo Posted April 12, 2010 Share Posted April 12, 2010 I think you need to contact a behaviourist to help you and separate when feeding in the meantime. If you are in Perth, i would suggest Kathy Koppellis McLeod to assist you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gilypoo Posted April 12, 2010 Author Share Posted April 12, 2010 I think you need to contact a behaviourist to help you and separate when feeding in the meantime. If you are in Perth, i would suggest Kathy Koppellis McLeod to assist you. Im in Bunbury.... I seperate them by about 3 meters but will do one inside the other out from now on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shmoo Posted April 12, 2010 Share Posted April 12, 2010 I think it is just what you saw. One bitch wasn't overly hungry and the other bitch saw an opportunity, but when it came to the crunch, the bitch was not willing to give up her dinner. Feed them separately from now on to avoid the two bitches practicing the behaviour. You may prefer to do this by feeding a separate rooms or crates. Put the food down and give your release command to eat and walk away. Leave for 15-20mins then return and remove any uneaten meal. As for "picking out a leader" that is not for you to do, and may never be obvious to you if there even is a leader. Pay attention to each bitches strengths, weaknesses and personality traits and work with them and teach them to live together in harmony. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stormie Posted April 12, 2010 Share Posted April 12, 2010 Gily are either of them desexed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monah Posted April 12, 2010 Share Posted April 12, 2010 Terrifying. you poor thing. Yes, behaviourist, if only to help you sort out what is going on yourself and give you a program to help the situation. Feed separately. I always feed mine apart, separate rooms, and they are in separate rooms when no one is at home. You may have to face the fact that this will need to be managed in a certain way forever. food can turn resource guarders into 'bitches' and this can be the only time they behave this way, but a behaviourist will be able to help you with this by observing them. Please be careful, they are large dogs. The gsd may not be the 'dominant' (hate that word) dog at all. I know plenty of them who are not and are underdogs. Also, sometimes the one dog may be the 'leader' in one area of life, and the other elsewhere. The food thing appears to be more about resources than 'leading'. I do TOT with both of mine and it's very helpful. I don't worry about 'door' stuff or who is first on walks or anything else as they chop and change daily, but I do have a resource guarder so am aware of watching out for this. Luckily they have never had an altercation. HOpe you have recovered and are OK.xxxxxxxx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mas1981 Posted April 12, 2010 Share Posted April 12, 2010 (edited) I know what fighting dogs are like so I can sympathise. I had to ridgeback bitches from the same litter. Firstly I wouldnt feed them in sight of one another , feed one inside or outside etc mine used to fight a lot over food but the serious fights were trigged by who knows what. Unfortunatly you cannot pick one to be the leader they have to sort it out for themselves and I had a dog that was submissive for years until she decided to put her foot down one day and they had the hugest fight ever and then roles were reversed. If you are with the dogs on your own it will be very hard to seperate them by yourself ,sometimes mine would stop fighting on their own or if i yelled but more often then not we had to spray water in the ones face before she would let go of the other dog. And not just spray it so that she was wet,basically spray her so hard that she had to let go to come up for air, sounds cruel but it was the only way. I would suggest getting some professional help though Edited April 12, 2010 by Masons_mom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted April 12, 2010 Share Posted April 12, 2010 You have two large bitches. you are ,as you put it ,"clueless" Please act on the advice given- it will quickly relieve stress for both you and the dogs! fed them in separate rooms . enlist the help of recommended experts to help get you confident and comfortable handling these two Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelpiekaye Posted April 13, 2010 Share Posted April 13, 2010 I have a friend who has a GSD and a GD, both bitches. My friend is very dog savvy and keeps a very close eye on what goes on between these two. The dane is top dog, but the shepherd often challenges and the dane sorts her out till next time. I think its always difficult having two bitches of similar ages. I agree with everyone else, feed them separately and avoid situations that create competition between them. Goodluck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gilypoo Posted April 13, 2010 Author Share Posted April 13, 2010 Gily are either of them desexed? Both of them are fixed.... Thanks for everyones advice. I will try to look for a beahavourist down this way... The little witches were best buds last night. They normally sleep in seperate beds but noo not last night, they had to sleep with each other.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monah Posted April 13, 2010 Share Posted April 13, 2010 Gily are either of them desexed? Both of them are fixed.... Thanks for everyones advice. I will try to look for a beahavourist down this way... The little witches were best buds last night. They normally sleep in seperate beds but noo not last night, they had to sleep with each other.. Yes, well don't get conned by that old trick They have issues, don't think because they appear to be 'best friends' that the issue has 'gone away'. Feed separate, supervise, and make sure they are not together if no one is home. It only takes one to find an old 'treat' in the garden or a similar thing to happen for a fight to break out. I sound OT, and I am a worry wort, but better safe than sorry. DOgs this size can do a lot of damage to each other, or god forbid, cause a fatality I don't let mine sort it out, if one gets 'narky', even slightly, they are chastised. Mine are both desexed bitches too, a year apart in age. I really do hope this is sorted soon for you. Don't allow their 'you are my best friend again' act to let your guard down.xxxxx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mas1981 Posted April 13, 2010 Share Posted April 13, 2010 Gily are either of them desexed? Both of them are fixed.... Thanks for everyones advice. I will try to look for a beahavourist down this way... The little witches were best buds last night. They normally sleep in seperate beds but noo not last night, they had to sleep with each other.. Yip mine would be the same, arch enemies one minute, best friends the next.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted April 13, 2010 Share Posted April 13, 2010 (edited) Two large dogs, same gender, same age. It was always going to be a recipe for potential conflict and one folk here would have advised against. The short answer is that they may never "sort it out" permanently. That leaves you to manage all possible triggers for inter-dog aggression with food (as you've just found out) being an obvious one. Good idea to get professional help but it may never resolve the situation permanently. They may be rivals for resources for the rest of their lives. If things start to escalate now that they are maturing, you may have to consider rehoming one of them. Hopefully it won't come to that. All dogs, regardless of pack status may defend resources. Best to bear that in mind. The advice about keeping them separated with food, bones etc is very wise. I would be taking all steps to ensure that you are not considered a 'resource' by either of them. Edited April 13, 2010 by poodlefan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandgrubber Posted April 13, 2010 Share Posted April 13, 2010 If interested, I'll be glad to provide a reference for a Perth + South behaviourist who is pretty new and trying to build up a clientelle south and far south of the river. In my experience she's not the best sit-stay-heel person, but very good with dog on dog questions. I think you need to contact a behaviourist to help you and separate when feeding in the meantime. If you are in Perth, i would suggest Kathy Koppellis McLeod to assist you. Im in Bunbury.... I seperate them by about 3 meters but will do one inside the other out from now on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monah Posted April 13, 2010 Share Posted April 13, 2010 Just adding, what poodlefan said about making sure YOU are not a resource is extremely important. Also, please make sure any behaviourist REALLY knows what they are doing, the wrong advice can be a disaster. I travelled 3 half hours and up to 5 hours( even did a weekend seminar) to see one and paid a lot of money and it was VERY worth it (took the dog of course ) and she offered to come all the way to our place too if needed. This was nearly 4 years ago and we are now friends and she still asks how things are going. My dog is NOT awful at all, but I had never had to deal with any 'aggressive' issues in my life and was 'clueless' and wanted the BEST advice I could get. This dog was terrific with the dogs we had at the time, so I had no idea there would be issues with a new pup, I was wrong and I have learnt a lot, but nowhere near enough, learn new things every day!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gilypoo Posted April 13, 2010 Author Share Posted April 13, 2010 Call me naive but what do you mean by me being a "resource" ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted April 13, 2010 Share Posted April 13, 2010 Call me naive but what do you mean by me being a "resource" ? Your attention will be something your dogs value and will potentially rival each other for. If you're not very clear about disavowing them of the notion that you can be controlled and guarded (like a bone) then you may become a source of conflict for them. It means you need to be very clear that you, and not they, call the shots in interactions. Watch for things like one dog pushing between you and the other when interacting or one dog demanding attention when you do something with the other. Or one dog taking the closer position to you and growling or warning the other dog away with body language. Personally, I think every dog benefits from one on one time with its owner away from the presence of any other resident dog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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