Hip Dysplasia

[Labs4me]

Hi all,

I just had one of my dog's hip & elbows x-rayed for scoring yesterday.

The assistant became very elusive when I simple ask if everything went ok(only concern if the procedure went well, not the score), and insisted I pay & sign the relevant forms for the x-rays to be assessed by Dr. Wyburn before speaking to the vet.

He is a labrador of 4yrs with no visible signs (and nothing as far as I could find in his pedigree, inc' siblings), full mobility, very active and loves to run. In fact the most active & agile out of my 4 dogs.

So after signing the forms and paying the fees, she had the vet come to speak with me.

She proceeded to tell me somewhat reluctantly that he server HD. I think my first word was "Gosh!" Then simply stated that it was rather surprising, so server with no history & no symptoms in over 4yrs?

She responded first with "I'm surprised you haven't noticed any symptoms" then quite abruptly & rudely with "See, this is why I told you to have the PennHip" and started ranting on about Pennhip serperioty.

For Goddness sake, if it was as bad as she was saying, either way it would have shown up, he still would be excluded from breeding and the informing of my dogs breeder of the outcome.

I was left feeling rather stunned, with of course the news, but also what purposes would there be in saying something like that and then ranting on about PennHip before addressing my dog's new found predicament?

If it's more accurate, it would not cure him of a server case of HD? or somehow pass.

Or was she hoping for a fail on PennHip to help support the claims that PennHip is better and detects more cases? Which very much feels like the case.

By not choosing to go with PennHip (while there is still many questions with it and not many train vets) has not in anyway caused HD.

To be honest, at the time I was just concerned with my dogs health, not this war between PennHip & OFA and disappointed with total disregard to my dog who IS affected, the direct result that all this is about to prevent.

It is simple, no one wants to breed or own a dog with HD. So research & steps were taken to help eliminate this. How can you only be concerned with which way it was done? Isn't the concerns of the individual dog effected that lead to to the whole process?

She was not forthwith coming on my dogs outlook with such a server HD, even after questioning her on it.

Only after pressuring her she eventually replied "he MAY need surgery down the line". No advice, no nothing, just how important it was to prove PennHipp is better... How far are some willing to go to prove/support this?

And is it not expected for vets to eliminate other conditions before jumping to the conclusion of HD and give management advice?

There just seemed too much wrong with this scenario (you really need to have to have been there), she showed absolutely no concern for my dog, seemed way too busy being Pro PennHip and too angry that I didn't go with PennHip.

And after reading many topics with breeders and vets concerns on x-ray procedures affecting scoring or leading to misdiagnosing of HD, untrained vets doing x-rays, submitting of only one x-ray usually the best? for assessment ect, it has left me wondering the care and fair assesment of my dog & others have received.

I just want to make it clear that I will NOT breed any dog known to have HD and I support every true effort to help eliminate this condition from our beloved friends.

Also that I am not outright saying my dog doesn't have HD, only that something was wrong with the scenario & my dog should have received better care... at least some attention.

I will be at least seeking a second option & from a vet that has an interest in my dogs wellbeing & followup care.

How much faith can with have with our vets to x-ray our dogs with experiance & without bias?

If there is not good control in the taking of x-rays, should we also question the control of the whole process?

Should we rush into a new controlling method if great care has not been taken to ensure that it is conculsion based on solid data and indeed a change for the better. If not, how could it possibly benefit future dogs?

I feel that our dogs would be better served if people (as a whole) tried harder to work together for progress against HD, rather than fractioning off and working against each other.

And lastly, while we work towards reducing the prevalence of HD, the dogs that we breed that do unfortuantly have HD passed on to them, I do not believe that they shouldn't be forgotten about in the grand scheme of things and full care should be giving.

Just my thoughts & views & still pretty disapointed with this vet as you probably can tell.

Like to hear if anyone has had a simular experiance or thier views on the matter.

[sandgrubber]

Wild thought, not reasoned and researched response.

1. It can happen out of the blue and some dogs who should be fine are radiologically HD.

2. Bad positioning can cause apparent HD where there is none.

3. How bad is it? Some dogs with bad scores get through life with no consequences . . . probably best life as a neuter . . . important to keep them lean and with muscle tone.

[Tarmons]

First of all, was this particular Vet recommended to you as one that is very familiar with the process of x-raying hips? The GSD owners have certain Vets that they use when submitting plates for scoring eg Dr Karen Hedberg and Dr Rob Zammit. Placing the dog correctly is of the utmost importance.

Secondly, there is a possibility that the Reader may give you a more accurate assessment of your dog's hips. I would hope so for that is the reason we pay a fee to have them read.

All is not lost. There are GSDs running around with a total of 102 - with no obvious limping or pain. Keep your dog trim and taut. Build up the muscles in the hind-quarter. Do not have excessive weight on the joints. Lots of swimming will help.

[lappiemum]

which vet did the xray work? A bad xray can be very misleading.

Poor hip scores can be the result of lines, environment or just bad luck in the genetic lottery. Over exercise in a puppy can also cause it (as can some agilty exercises).

Don't be afraid to get a second opinon, but def tell your breeder.

[lappiemum]

Labs4Me, you may be interested in this thread re PenHip scoring:

http://www.dolforums.com.au/index.php?show...=193166&hl=

[Labs4me]

Does anyone know of a vet in Wagga Wagga (or region) that is familiar with the process of x-raying hips? Willing to travel as far as Sydney if needed for a capable vet.

Sandgrubber

As I stated, I was still pretty upset at the time of writing that.

My main point was ment to be there was too much focus on which is better for detection and no focus on the dog that is affected.

Tamons

The vet didn't come recommended, but did claimed to be trained in PennHip. I travelled to Wagga Wagga in hopes to find a more qualified vet as I live in a remote area.

I hope to know next week of Dr Wyburns assessment. Might shed some light and be clearer on the severity of it.

My dog is of good weight and maintains it very well, even the vet said he is at ideal weight.

Exercise I give him is walk/swimming, never force rigorous exercise. He does his most vigorous exercise on his own free will in daily playtime with me & the rest of the dogs.

Lappiemum

Dr.Lynne Bodell of Wagga Wagga. I understand that a number of factors can lead to a bad x-ray and lead to possible incorrect assessment. Poor or incorrect positioning is not always picked up by the person doing the assessing.

I will be getting a second option and have already contacted his breeder.

Edited April 9, 2010 by Labs4me

[lappiemum]

Does anyone know of a vet in Wagga Wagga (or region) that is familiar with the process of x-raying hips? Willing to travel as far as Sydney if needed for a capable vet.

Sandgrubber

As I stated, I was still pretty upset at the time of writing that.

My main point was ment to be there was too much focus on which is better for detection and no focus on the dog that is affected.

Tamons

The vet didn't come recommended, but did claimed to be trained in PennHip. I travelled to Wagga Wagga in hopes to find a more qualified vet as I live in a remote area.

I hope to know next week of Dr Wyburns assessment. Might shed some light and be clearer on the severity of it.

My dog is of good weight and maintains it very well, even the vet said he is at ideal weight.

Exercise I give him is walk/swimming, never force rigorous exercise. He does his most vigorous exercise on his own free will in daily playtime with me & the rest of the dogs.

Lappiemum

Dr.Lynne Bodell of Wagga Wagga. I understand that a number of factors can lead to a bad x-ray and lead to possible incorrect assessment. Poor or incorrect positioning is not always picked up by the person doing the assessing.

I will be getting a second option and have already contacted his breeder.

I used Karen Hedberg, in Sydney. She is very good, and was definately worth the trip to see her from Melbourne. Only gave our dogs just enough to knock them out and take the xray - they were back up and wanting to do zoomies about an hour and half after she first knocked them out.

[sandgrubber]

It is upsetting when bad news comes from the blue. You need to verify that the 'bad news' isn't, in fact, a result of an incompetent job of x-raying . . . which can and does happen. If it is real, then you have to deal with it responsibly. As lots of people will tell you, some dogs with rotten hip scores lead very healthy lives and show no sign of being dysplasic. But if the scores are bad, forget stud work.

Good luck. Let us know what Dr Wyburn says. Pay attention to his notes about the quality of the X-ray.

Edited April 10, 2010 by sandgrubber

[ozmalinois]

You may not get to see Dr Wyburn's notes as they are usually on a post it note and if the vet posted the xrays, they will go back to them. If this vet is as you decribed I couldn't imagine that she will leave the notes there if there is a problem with the xrays. I would suggest emailing Dr Wyburn and asking about the quality of the xrays.

This is another reason we post the xrays ourselves, so they come directly back to us and I don't have to fight with the vet nurse to get them back!!

We had 3 dogs done at the same time and 2 were incorrectly postioned which "could" have contributed to the higher scores on those sides. The scores were low but could have been lower! If the xrays were sent back to the surgery we would never had known as the vet nurse would have removed the Post It. Our vet is wonderful and does a great job.(just a know it all VN) I understand our dogs were done by a younger vet this time round, all good, they have to learn sometime.

[gundoglover]

If I were you I would email Dr Wyburn with your concerns & ask for feedback on the quality of the xray & positioning of the hips, etc. This is Dr Wyburn's email address: [email protected]

I have found Dr Wyburn to be very approachable & helpful.

If you want a vet closer to Wagga than Sydney, Peter Wright of Clinton Street Clinic, Goulburn, is very competent in taking xrays. His contact details are: 7 Clinton St, Goulburn. 0248 211881, Mobile Service 0428 482948, Email: [email protected] . Also Jeff Smith visits this clinic once a month for eye testing.

I would imagine that there are also vets in Canberra that others can recommend.

[Labs4me]

Thanks for the info guys.

I have emailed him and now I will just have to wait and see.

The fisrt vets I tried contacting, they were seemingly less knowagable of hip scoring and the one that did seem to know a great deal more, took the liberty in sending in the x-rays themselves.|

Once bitten, twice shy...

I really miss my old vet... that's the trouble with moving

[Wazzat Xolo]

Having had my dogs hips and elbows completed in the last few months I may be able to comment here. I was told by the vet there was a shadow on the elbow but dont worry the Xray examiner would explain it all ( Dr Wyburn) After a week of waiting I received the results from Anne and Ron Wyburn on both dogs and all clear on both NOTHING at all on elbows.

I would wait for Dr Wyburn to score, you can email him or call if you are worried, they always reply, dont forget they are going on five weeks leave beginning of May so get your x rays in pretty quick.

I have spoken to Ron a fair bit the last few weeks and I think a call to him re the comments on the Penn hip would be very useful and he would be interested to know.

[Labs4me]

Having had my dogs hips and elbows completed in the last few months I may be able to comment here. I was told by the vet there was a shadow on the elbow but dont worry the Xray examiner would explain it all ( Dr Wyburn) After a week of waiting I received the results from Anne and Ron Wyburn on both dogs and all clear on both NOTHING at all on elbows.

I would wait for Dr Wyburn to score, you can email him or call if you are worried, they always reply, dont forget they are going on five weeks leave beginning of May so get your x rays in pretty quick.

I have spoken to Ron a fair bit the last few weeks and I think a call to him re the comments on the Penn hip would be very useful and he would be interested to know.

Thanks for the tip.

I did call but I spoke with wife? I belive. We had a very interesting talk.

She knew of this vet in question and suggested that I don't dispair, do get a second option just first wait for Dr Wyburns assesment (via teh vet) and if I have any conserns on his notes to give him a call.

She assured me notes will be printed on the orginal form (not post it notes) so they can't hide any notes.

[Wazzat Xolo]

Having had my dogs hips and elbows completed in the last few months I may be able to comment here. I was told by the vet there was a shadow on the elbow but dont worry the Xray examiner would explain it all ( Dr Wyburn) After a week of waiting I received the results from Anne and Ron Wyburn on both dogs and all clear on both NOTHING at all on elbows.

I would wait for Dr Wyburn to score, you can email him or call if you are worried, they always reply, dont forget they are going on five weeks leave beginning of May so get your x rays in pretty quick.

I have spoken to Ron a fair bit the last few weeks and I think a call to him re the comments on the Penn hip would be very useful and he would be interested to know.

Thanks for the tip.

I did call but I spoke with wife? I belive. We had a very interesting talk.

She knew of this vet in question and suggested that I don't dispair, do get a second option just first wait for Dr Wyburns assesment (via teh vet) and if I have any conserns on his notes to give him a call.

She assured me notes will be printed on the orginal form (not post it notes) so they can't hide any notes.

Thats good, and I can only say UI have found them both to be so great a help, and yes the notes are on the forms if any, just thought I would tell you my experience and sounds the same as yours so far, good luck.

[Firestone]

Vets who take xrays are not always qualified to read them. Some of them would like to make out they are

Wyburn is a reader and specialist in his field so its a good idea to wait till you get the results of the reading.

Interesting that your vet is going on about Penn Hip etc. Read interesting information on this by Dr. Wyburn that was presented the the German Shepherd Dog Council AGM and he was certainly not supporting the Penn Hip Scheme.

[Stolzseinrotts]

I am sorry to hear that you were treated poorly by the Vet Nurse. I personally am not a fan of the PennHip System. Each to their own I say.

Bad positioning can be a make or break so to speak for HD gradings. If you haven't already seen this link, please have a look, it may explain a lot for you and also allow you to see what is good and bad positioning.

The Importance of Good Positioning on Canine Hip X-rays

ETA: I have a bitch here who has a total score of 28.....11.17 Grade 5, she has 0.0 elbows.........go figure?.She is now (5 years of age) showing signs of her HD, I don't think this bitch will have a long life as I will not allow her to have a life of pain. Having said that I am aware of a number of dogs with higher scores than the mentioned bitch who have gone on to have a long pain free life and who have not showed any indication of their HD. Each dog is different and as such you have to manage each dog according to the physical signs that develop.

People say that because a dog shows great movement they don't have HD, that is rubbish and has been proven over and over again, the only way to confirm good hips is by xray only. At the end of the day though, Bad hips are Bad Hips. And as for the cause of HD there are many contributing factors. That is for another thread.

Edited April 12, 2010 by Stolzseinrotts

[Guest Baylord]

Vets who take xrays are not always qualified to read them. Some of them would like to make out they are

Wyburn is a reader and specialist in his field so its a good idea to wait till you get the results of the reading.

Firestone is correct.

I was advised that it may not be worth while in sending the xrays of one of my girls to be read, as they were supposedly not that good.

You can imagine my surprise when I got the scores back being a 0/1=1 with 0/0 elbows

[Icemist]

Thanks for the info guys.

I have emailed him and now I will just have to wait and see.

The fisrt vets I tried contacting, they were seemingly less knowagable of hip scoring and the one that did seem to know a great deal more, took the liberty in sending in the x-rays themselves.|

Once bitten, twice shy...

I really miss my old vet... that's the trouble with moving :D

The vet I use if from Canberra. He does the Australian Federal Police (AFP) and Customs dogs.

PM me and I can give you details if you wish.

[Wazzat Xolo]

I have some more info on the PH score system I believe that virtually all the breed councils and clubs have stated that they are going to follow the FCI advice. ( earlier post)

Also the AVA and their New Zealand counter part, the NZVA, are having a meeting next month to discuss the issue but the reality is they will probably follow the ANKC decision.

I think ( just my opinion based on reading ) the driving force behind the push for PennHip is that it has been rejected by Europe and most other countries and has not been widely

accepted in the USA. Australia is seen as a "soft touch" and a last hope. They are even telling other countries that PennHip will become

the procedure of choice in Australia in the very near future.

I guess this is like most things these days "economic" and business that push too much and can ruin things good or bad. Its a sales Pitch by the company in the USA I believe ( maybe MM can say more as why its not taken off in the USA)

:D

[wayrod]

I am sorry to hear that you were treated poorly by the Vet Nurse. I personally am not a fan of the PennHip System. Each to their own I say.

Bad positioning can be a make or break so to speak for HD gradings. If you haven't already seen this link, please have a look, it may explain a lot for you and also allow you to see what is good and bad positioning.

The Importance of Good Positioning on Canine Hip X-rays

ETA: I have a bitch here who has a total score of 28.....11.17 Grade 5, she has 0.0 elbows.........go figure?.She is now (5 years of age) showing signs of her HD, I don't think this bitch will have a long life as I will not allow her to have a life of pain. Having said that I am aware of a number of dogs with higher scores than the mentioned bitch who have gone on to have a long pain free life and who have not showed any indication of their HD. Each dog is different and as such you have to manage each dog according to the physical signs that develop.

It is still early days but in USA they are trying stem cell therapy to aid dogs that suffer from hip dysplasia. Admittedly in its early days so information is scarce and the lifecycle of the treatment is unknown but information in the clip indicate that the subject dog has improved with the use of stem cell therapy. Details have been documented on you tube below:

Hopefully documented scientific documents will be available so that vets in Australia may also possibly see advantages. Note many vets in Australia will not look at this option currently until documented scientific papers are available.